Want to stimulate this economy? Give the stimulus money to the PEOPLE, not the corporations. That money that went to GM and Chrysler could have gone to tax payers to pay off their debts so they can pump more money into the economy. We literally could have started with a fresh slate. But no, let's reward businesses for bad business decisions.
There goes whirlpool off mexico
- Thread starter NIGHTFLIGHT
- Start date
afterhours
Registered
here we go again...blaming everybody else for a situation we created ourselves...
the reason wal-mart sells cheap **** from is .....because we love a bargain.
it was not the auto industry's fault that americans kept buying gas guzzlers.....that we lined up to buy over priced status symbols, a 6 year car loan....are you kidding me.
the reason people are not buying big items like refrigerators is not because they lost thier jobs....its because the endless line of credit has disappeared.
the reason wal-mart sells cheap **** from is .....because we love a bargain.
it was not the auto industry's fault that americans kept buying gas guzzlers.....that we lined up to buy over priced status symbols, a 6 year car loan....are you kidding me.
the reason people are not buying big items like refrigerators is not because they lost thier jobs....its because the endless line of credit has disappeared.
I disagree.
First of all, cars cost so outlandish it's almost impossible to buy a new car
without a 6 year car loan. Look at anything halfway decent (that you actually
might WANT to drive) and your looking at 25 grand plus up to 45 grand and
beyond. Thank you unions.
And it is jobs that are stopping big items (like houses). My job has been shakey
and declining for the last 2 years...if I were in the same position and money
wise I was 3 years ago, I'd take advantage of the 1.9% Zuk financing and
have a new Busa sitting in my garage, ugly tail and all right next to the old one.
You can't buy if your not working. I'm looking at a 50% pay cut in 4 months
they gave me a 6 month window 2 months ago. We are going to "renegotiate"
my pay based on the current market. Basically what they did is the company is
shriking and I got a demotion per say (after 22 years) in position with my current pay and
in 6 months, the pay will follow.
And didn't walmart used to advertise big on "made in America". And they were
successfull then. The forte' of walmart is you stop at one place and buy everything
on the planet and then a few things you didn't seem to need. I complain
I can't stop in walmart for (insert single item here) and get out the door
for under $100. I don't really SAVE money there to begin with and should walmart begin a big
push for "made in America again" and prices rise, I don't think we as consumers
would exactly be put off by that. SOoo...my point is, everyone blames us as
consumers but the evil here is walmart wanting to make more money by buying
the chinese crap.
The thing I find distressing is the way creditors handle things. I have a freind
who got a month behind on his car loan. He paid in the 2nd month and the
loan company (Campus USA credit union) place the payment in his saving
account and didn't take the payment. The next months loan was due on
Wednesday and he was waiting till Friday to get paid...they towed the
car on Thursday and THEN reached back into the saving account and
took that money back out. (he didn't even know they did that put the
money in there till he called). Anyway in trying to get the car back Campus
said he would have to pay ONE-THIRD of the loan or $5000...WTF.
If he had $5000 he wouldn't be late. So the loan is 15,000 they auction the
car off for $7,000 and sue him for $8,000
for a car he no longer ownes.Newsflash...you can't get blood from a turnip. Can you say...Bankruptcy.
They will get nothing more. WORK WITH PEOPLE.
The same thing applies to houses...give 6 months no payments and add
it to the back of their loan. Rather than, oh what we need is another
forclosed home with weeds growing up around it we can auction off
at rock bottom prices further driving down the value of property.
Work with people...the only thing bailing out the banks did is fatten up
AIG executives, etc. They are still priks and while I'm ranting....
every credit card I own has sent me letters amping up my interest rate.
yeah i know I know send them letters opting out blah blah...it's the
principal of the thing. They have money problems and hit washington
for BILLIONS then turn around and hit us...they don't get it...
as my pay is shrinking...YOUR SQUEEZING A DRY SPONGE
to what end...till I lose my house and car and file bankruptcy
THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING.
oh but Obama assures me it's all getting better...
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I think improved Quality in general is to blame. the fridge I bought 10 years ago...no problems yet, washer & drier- 7 years old, cars for the last 10 or so years- 100k warranties on certain parts. cars with 150k still run..."disposibles" last longer...etc. if things have a longer service life (which we all strive for) the downfall is fewer replacements are needed. double edge.
NIGHTFLIGHT
Banned
Should have been this week.Sucks that I have pay them 2 get my insurance benifits current.I owe like $500 there going take out of my 1st 2 checks.
I think I can get a otr job now but not steady just as needed.
I would really rather be driving otr anyway.
I disagree.
First of all, cars cost so outlandish it's almost impossible to buy a new car
without a 6 year car loan. Look at anything halfway decent (that you actually
might WANT to drive) and your looking at 25 grand plus up to 45 grand and
beyond. Thank you unions.
And it is jobs that are stopping big items (like houses). My job has been shakey
and declining for the last 2 years...if I were in the same position and money
wise I was 3 years ago, I'd take advantage of the 1.9% Zuk financing and
have a new Busa sitting in my garage, ugly tail and all right next to the old one.
You can't buy if your not working. I'm looking at a 50% pay cut in 4 months
they gave me a 6 month window 2 months ago. We are going to "renegotiate"
my pay based on the current market. Basically what they did is the company is
shriking and I got a demotion per say (after 22 years) in position with my current pay and
in 6 months, the pay will follow.
And didn't walmart used to advertise big on "made in America". And they were
successfull then. The forte' of walmart is you stop at one place and buy everything
on the planet and then a few things you didn't seem to need. I complain
I can't stop in walmart for (insert single item here) and get out the door
for under $100. I don't really SAVE money there to begin with and should walmart begin a big
push for "made in America again" and prices rise, I don't think we as consumers
would exactly be put off by that. SOoo...my point is, everyone blames us as
consumers but the evil here is walmart wanting to make more money by buying
the chinese crap.
The thing I find distressing is the way creditors handle things. I have a freind
who got a month behind on his car loan. He paid in the 2nd month and the
loan company (Campus USA credit union) place the payment in his saving
account and didn't take the payment. The next months loan was due on
Wednesday and he was waiting till Friday to get paid...they towed the
car on Thursday and THEN reached back into the saving account and
took that money back out. (he didn't even know they did that put the
money in there till he called). Anyway in trying to get the car back Campus
said he would have to pay ONE-THIRD of the loan or $5000...WTF.
If he had $5000 he wouldn't be late. So the loan is 15,000 they auction the
car off for $7,000 and sue him for $8,000
Newsflash...you can't get blood from a turnip. Can you say...Bankruptcy.
They will get nothing more. WORK WITH PEOPLE.
The same thing applies to houses...give 6 months no payments and add
it to the back of their loan. Rather than, oh what we need is another
forclosed home with weeds growing up around it we can auction off
at rock bottom prices further driving down the value of property.
Work with people...the only thing bailing out the banks did is fatten up
AIG executives, etc. They are still priks and while I'm ranting....
every credit card I own has sent me letters amping up my interest rate.
yeah i know I know send them letters opting out blah blah...it's the
principal of the thing. They have money problems and hit washington
for BILLIONS then turn around and hit us...they don't get it...
as my pay is shrinking...YOUR SQUEEZING A DRY SPONGE
to what end...till I lose my house and car and file bankruptcy
THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING.
oh but Obama assures me it's all getting better...
Please don't think I'm singling you out in this discussion, it's just that I find your position on this intriguing because it's much different than mine.
I've yet to own a new car...and I could pay cash for one. It just doesn't make sense to finance a depreciating asset. Why pay interest rates of 5%-10% on something that is going to lose 20% of its value the second you drive it off the lot? Up until a year ago I drove a twelve year old Thunderbird that I paid $2600 for. Sure it didn't have that new car smell. It squeaked a little. It wasn't that shiny and had some chips in the paint. The neighbors, my coworkers, and strangers on the street thought I was less successful than them. So be it...it's difficult to build wealth when one is sending disposable income to a bank needlessly, or just burning money through depreciation.
That said, I did buy my 'busa new. The economy was crap at the time, it was a leftover from the previous model year, and after a number of years saving and investing I can afford to "burn" a little cash in the form of depreciation.
The industry I work in has been in contraction since 2004. The company I work for went bankrupt about that time. I've seen my pay reduced by about $35,000 annually from what it once was. Monday is my last day of work, as the company has elected to lay off another hundred pilots on top of the three hundred it already has. Guess what...I volunteered to get laid off. I've been preparing for the eventual shutdown of the company for the last five years...and there's someone junior to me whose job was saved at least temporarily by my decision. Now I can focus more on the three businesses I've developed over the last five years...and better develop a fourth I have an interest in.
For the last few years I've earned more from investments than I have working. That's a nice position to be in, but it also illustrates just how much value society places on someone who is directly responsible for the safety of tens of thousands of lives every year.
When you write about your impending reduction in pay I understand what you are going through. I've been there. It's tough to keep the morale up...particularly if one has nothing else to fall back on. In the end, whether one rises to the challenge or slips into irrelevance is an individual choice.
I disagree with your assessment of Wal-Mart's business model. There was a time when American made goods were available for purchase at Wal-Mart, right next to similar goods made in Asia. Wal-Mart stays in business, and is wildly successful, by doing nothing more than giving customers what they want. Customers vote with their dollars, and in most cases they'll feel a lot better "saving" a few dollars than knowing they've kept someone in another state in the U.S. employed another day. This is unfortunate, but seems to be human nature.
I didn't completely understand what you wrote about your friend's problem with the credit union, but if someone agrees to pay "X" amount of dollars for a vehicle that is only worth "Y" to someone else (the price the vehicle ultimately will bring at auction) that doesn't mean the entity who was kind enough to step in and help someone in his/her time of "need" isn't entitled to attempt to recover what someone gave their word and signed a contract for. If this is the level of personal responsibility we're going to accept as a society credit is going to get both extremely expensive (note earlier posts about credit card rates increasing) and much more difficult to get (again note earlier posts).
By the way, just because your friend got to drive the car for a couple of months and got to pay the sales tax and property tax on the vehicle, it wasn't his or hers...it was the bank's. We like to say "It's my house" or "It's my car" when in reality our equity in the item may extend only to a closet or hubcap. If your friend owed $15,000 on a car that was worth $7000 he didn't "own" anything except a very large liability.
Secured creditors will work with borrowers...they have no choice if they're operating a sound business. No creditor wants to auction off an asset for pennies on the dollar...they want their customers to honor their end of the agreement.
Unsecured creditors generally must build into their interest rates a larger provision for loan losses. That's why credit card rates are, on average, substantially higher than the rate on a home or auto loan.
Globalization is a cat you're never going to put back into the bag. Efficient utilization of capital requires it seek the greatest rate of return, and paying four times what is necessary for labor to produce a washing machine is not going to help a washing machine sell when a customer is looking at a competitors product that provides the same benefit at a cheaper cost.
We can choose to be upset that our job has been given to someone willing to do the work for less, or we can choose to invest in increasing our education, skills, and abilities. This requires some level of ambition and effort to be sure, but to believe we can maintain or increase the standard of living we enjoy today with the same level of effort, knowledge, and ability we have today is delusional.
We can choose to consume and put ourselves in a position of economic weakness at the hand of those who produce and provide credit, or we can choose to save, invest, and build the asset side of our personal balance sheet so that when tough times hit we're better positioned to rise to the challenge.
No politician from any position on the political spectrum can be given credit or blame for what ultimately is our personal abdication of responsibility.
Again my response is not directed at you as a person, but instead at the idea that somehow we're all victims of some powerful force bigger than ourselves.
Best wishes to you. I hope you're able to find something that suits you soon. I know the trucking industry in general has been hit pretty hard by the recession.
Awesome post F=MA 
I don't feel singled out and I love an enlighted discussion with a varied point
of view. We as a society do not do enough of this.
I fully understand the issue of fullfilling an agreement however, circumstances
are sometimes beyond our immediate control and you can not give something
you do not have. My point being had the loan company simply worked with my
buddy (he loved that car btw) he would have been able to recover and pay
the rest of the loan and they would have eventually get the full $15,000.
They did not work with him for nothing...(car was worth about 12,000 at the time)
Instead they acted like close minded jerks and cut their nose off to spite their
face. They got 7,000 and then out of that had to pay for their attorney to
which his choice is to file bankruptcy and they get nothing. Doesn't seem like
good business....it's the same with the housing market, then they have a ton
of forclosures....forclosures generate zero dollars just sitting there empty. And
then they cry for uncle sam money cause they are going broke.
It's no different for a credit card, if I have a tight month and just don't have it
then they hit you with late fee, double payment, bump your interest rate,
and overlimit fee all at the same time. Well if I can't pay the $150...what on
earth would make them think I pay $400 next month, and so on. This makes
Bankruptcy and attractive out, eventually people just give up.
I applaud your enterprising nature but my friend, you are an exception.
(and I would reckon a small percentage at that). Most Americans, for better or
worse, just want to go to an average job, count on a periodic check, and use
credit. And believe me I understand...I don't care if it's paid for...we never really
OWN anything as in nothing is safe.
We can agree to disagree on walmart...were else are you going to go...
Kmart(they own that too don't they). If everything in the store jumped 10%
tomorrow, I doubt many people would even notice it. I really don't shop wally world
cause of price...it's all selection for me.
BTW-never bought a new car either.
I don't feel singled out and I love an enlighted discussion with a varied point
of view. We as a society do not do enough of this.
I fully understand the issue of fullfilling an agreement however, circumstances
are sometimes beyond our immediate control and you can not give something
you do not have. My point being had the loan company simply worked with my
buddy (he loved that car btw) he would have been able to recover and pay
the rest of the loan and they would have eventually get the full $15,000.
They did not work with him for nothing...(car was worth about 12,000 at the time)
Instead they acted like close minded jerks and cut their nose off to spite their
face. They got 7,000 and then out of that had to pay for their attorney to
which his choice is to file bankruptcy and they get nothing. Doesn't seem like
good business....it's the same with the housing market, then they have a ton
of forclosures....forclosures generate zero dollars just sitting there empty. And
then they cry for uncle sam money cause they are going broke.
It's no different for a credit card, if I have a tight month and just don't have it
then they hit you with late fee, double payment, bump your interest rate,
and overlimit fee all at the same time. Well if I can't pay the $150...what on
earth would make them think I pay $400 next month, and so on. This makes
Bankruptcy and attractive out, eventually people just give up.
I applaud your enterprising nature but my friend, you are an exception.
(and I would reckon a small percentage at that). Most Americans, for better or
worse, just want to go to an average job, count on a periodic check, and use
credit. And believe me I understand...I don't care if it's paid for...we never really
OWN anything as in nothing is safe.
We can agree to disagree on walmart...were else are you going to go...
Kmart(they own that too don't they). If everything in the store jumped 10%
tomorrow, I doubt many people would even notice it. I really don't shop wally world
cause of price...it's all selection for me.
BTW-never bought a new car either.
Awesome post F=MA
I don't feel singled out and I love an enlighted discussion with a varied point
of view. We as a society do not do enough of this.
I fully understand the issue of fullfilling an agreement however, circumstances
are sometimes beyond our immediate control and you can not give something
you do not have. My point being had the loan company simply worked with my
buddy (he loved that car btw) he would have been able to recover and pay
the rest of the loan and they would have eventually get the full $15,000.
They did not work with him for nothing...(car was worth about 12,000 at the time)
Instead they acted like close minded jerks and cut their nose off to spite their
face. They got 7,000 and then out of that had to pay for their attorney to
which his choice is to file bankruptcy and they get nothing. Doesn't seem like
good business....it's the same with the housing market, then they have a ton
of forclosures....forclosures generate zero dollars just sitting there empty. And
then they cry for uncle sam money cause they are going broke.
It's no different for a credit card, if I have a tight month and just don't have it
then they hit you with late fee, double payment, bump your interest rate,
and overlimit fee all at the same time. Well if I can't pay the $150...what on
earth would make them think I pay $400 next month, and so on. This makes
Bankruptcy and attractive out, eventually people just give up.
I applaud your enterprising nature but my friend, you are an exception.
(and I would reckon a small percentage at that). Most Americans, for better or
worse, just want to go to an average job, count on a periodic check, and use
credit. And believe me I understand...I don't care if it's paid for...we never really
OWN anything as in nothing is safe.
We can agree to disagree on walmart...were else are you going to go...
Kmart(they own that too don't they). If everything in the store jumped 10%
tomorrow, I doubt many people would even notice it. I really don't shop wally world
cause of price...it's all selection for me.
BTW-never bought a new car either.
Thanks for the compliment Justyntym. I too enjoy respectful discussions from varying viewpoints...much too difficult to find these days. I generally leave a good discussion with a better understanding and a broader view than I had when I entered the conversation.
I hope your friend is able to recover from the stress he/she is presently experiencing. Times are tough for a lot of us right now, and if we focus our energy looking for a scapegoat it's going to be more difficult to see opportunities that present themselves.
After all, if we place blame for our problems elsewhere, we never really have to admit there are things we could have done, or could be doing, to improve our future.
I may be an exception, though I don't feel like one. I most certainly am not superior to anyone. We've all had unique experiences and have unique talents. Even the poorest among us enjoy a level of wealth that is unimaginable to 80% of the world's population.
I haven't been to a Wal-Mart or K-Mart in at least five years, but that may be because I now live in an area where there are a number of alternatives.
Regards
NIGHTFLIGHT
Banned
WHap ticks me off there saying plant hasnt cut profit last few years.
I call bullsheet there moving operations 2 Monterey Mexico there Union here wonder what there paying down there?
I call bullsheet there moving operations 2 Monterey Mexico there Union here wonder what there paying down there?
afterhours
Registered
I disagree.
First of all, cars cost so outlandish it's almost impossible to buy a new car
without a 6 year car loan. Look at anything halfway decent (that you actually
might WANT to drive) and your looking at 25 grand plus up to 45 grand and
beyond. Thank you unions.
And it is jobs that are stopping big items (like houses). My job has been shakey
and declining for the last 2 years...if I were in the same position and money
wise I was 3 years ago, I'd take advantage of the 1.9% Zuk financing and
have a new Busa sitting in my garage, ugly tail and all right next to the old one.
You can't buy if your not working. I'm looking at a 50% pay cut in 4 months
they gave me a 6 month window 2 months ago. We are going to "renegotiate"
my pay based on the current market. Basically what they did is the company is
shriking and I got a demotion per say (after 22 years) in position with my current pay and
in 6 months, the pay will follow.
And didn't walmart used to advertise big on "made in America". And they were
successfull then. The forte' of walmart is you stop at one place and buy everything
on the planet and then a few things you didn't seem to need. I complain
I can't stop in walmart for (insert single item here) and get out the door
for under $100. I don't really SAVE money there to begin with and should walmart begin a big
push for "made in America again" and prices rise, I don't think we as consumers
would exactly be put off by that. SOoo...my point is, everyone blames us as
consumers but the evil here is walmart wanting to make more money by buying
the chinese crap.
The thing I find distressing is the way creditors handle things. I have a freind
who got a month behind on his car loan. He paid in the 2nd month and the
loan company (Campus USA credit union) place the payment in his saving
account and didn't take the payment. The next months loan was due on
Wednesday and he was waiting till Friday to get paid...they towed the
car on Thursday and THEN reached back into the saving account and
took that money back out. (he didn't even know they did that put the
money in there till he called). Anyway in trying to get the car back Campus
said he would have to pay ONE-THIRD of the loan or $5000...WTF.
If he had $5000 he wouldn't be late. So the loan is 15,000 they auction the
car off for $7,000 and sue him for $8,000
Newsflash...you can't get blood from a turnip. Can you say...Bankruptcy.
They will get nothing more. WORK WITH PEOPLE.
The same thing applies to houses...give 6 months no payments and add
it to the back of their loan. Rather than, oh what we need is another
forclosed home with weeds growing up around it we can auction off
at rock bottom prices further driving down the value of property.
Work with people...the only thing bailing out the banks did is fatten up
AIG executives, etc. They are still priks and while I'm ranting....
every credit card I own has sent me letters amping up my interest rate.
yeah i know I know send them letters opting out blah blah...it's the
principal of the thing. They have money problems and hit washington
for BILLIONS then turn around and hit us...they don't get it...
as my pay is shrinking...YOUR SQUEEZING A DRY SPONGE
to what end...till I lose my house and car and file bankruptcy
THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING.
oh but Obama assures me it's all getting better...
if you need six year or more to pay for a car.....perhaps you need to buy a cheaper car.
if your credit card is raining the rates....stop using it?
you want the department stores to sell american at higher cost.....then stop buying the cheap crap al wal-mart and target...
and i don't know what your friend has told you.....but legitimate creditor is repo'ing cars for being 2 months late.....they are doing all they can to keep people making the payments. they don't don't want your car, they want the money they are owed...i imagine there is more to that story..
Wow...all the answers at once, I am truely blessed with insight.
Five or six year loan for a car is pretty standard, for a newer car. I don't have
a problem with the length, my issues goes with monthly payment size. As far
as cheaper car, I wanted something nice and newer for my daughter going
away to college and something she/I didn't have to worry about reliability or repairs.
None of which has beens to do with the overpriced cars comming out of
detroit and elsewhere while the mfg. pay pensions out the arse.
Credit cards...I know full what debt managment and responsibility is. My gripe is
these companies like Chase have trouble paying THEIR bills and receive BILLIONS
and then promptly respond by bending over Mr. and Mrs. you and me. I have
cards I don't use and they all went up, it's the pricipal.
Not shopping at target or walmart is not that easy....THERE IS NOWHERE ELSE....
Sams Club...oh no wait, they own that....Kmart I guess, God knows
there is no cheap Chinese crap in there...
And again and again....I don't shop there because the crap is cheap, I
shop there because all the crap is in one place.
And as far my friend being full of sht...you don't know, I was there every
day. It was my assistant and he was in my office for the last 5 years and
we were pretty tight. I was there every step of the way. I'm even the one
that made the call trying to get the car back that wanted 1/3rd of the loan.
Which is why I am saying the whole mentality of it is idiotic.
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It's frustrating and disappointing to be certain, but when you own something you can do with it what you please.
Just for perspective, let me create an anology...
Your 'busa needs a new clutch because you burned it up while drag racing.
Your usual mechanic, just down the street, says if you buy the parts, he'll put it in for $200 labor.
However, while lamenting over how you got beaten by that ZX-14 at the track because your clutch pack exploded, someone mentioned the name and telephone number of a mechanic who performed a similar repair for them for $20. This particular mechanic lives on the other side of town, a relatively minor inconvenience.
Your former mechanic is going to go ballistic...he's been doing the same work for you for the last twenty years after all...he's entitled to get all work from you in the future.
The $20 mechanic does the work for you, and aside from a few extra minutes required to transport your bike, there's no difference in the benefit received from the new mechanic...except you have another $180 in your pocket.
No matter how much your former mechanic complains, he's not getting your business back again as long as he expects to make much more than $20 (you'd probably pay a small premium for his more convenient location and maybe a little for the fact that you've had a long term business relationship with him).
Ownership of a skill many others posess, or can learn with a few hours of training, is not of much value in a society that is wealthier than 80% of the rest of the world.
Ownership of capital (your motorcycle and $200 in this analogy) grants one the opportunity to control how that asset is managed.
It is my belief that the best way to prevent getting drowned by the wave of globalization is to work to change one's position on the food chain from being strictly labor to being, to as large an extent as is possible, an owner.
Just as you didn't buy your 'busa for the benefit of your local mechanic, an investor didn't buy Whirlpool for the benefit of it's employees. Certainly as long as they're competitive in terms of cost and productivity that investor will be happy to have them on the team.
Something to consider.
This thread really delivers! I want to commend everyone who is taking an adult approach here. I appreciate the input, comments, observations and most of all insight.
One sure way of getting out of this mess is through discussions like this. No one yelling at each other or calling names. It does not put money in our pockets, clothes on our back, but if it causes anyone to look at their next financial decision with a little better insight and pushes them towards a decision that helps financially...good has come from this.
One sure way of getting out of this mess is through discussions like this. No one yelling at each other or calling names. It does not put money in our pockets, clothes on our back, but if it causes anyone to look at their next financial decision with a little better insight and pushes them towards a decision that helps financially...good has come from this.
F=MA
I understand your analogy but...what your describing here is the destruction
of the middle class. Your saying were all either going to be $2 an hour peasants
or entrepreneurs, guppies or groupers. The backbone of America is the middle
class and we as country will not survive without ensuring it's growth. The rich
can not support the country financially, they typically do what the rich do and
that is hold on to their money. What ever business you start, it will fail without
the middle class to spend the money, dispite all it's credit disfunctions it's the
middle class that provides economic growth and stability. The problem comes
when the jobs evaporate and there is no money to pay the credit off.
Laws and policies can and do change, Congress should pass the law tomorrow
if you sell it here make it here or pay a huge tariff.
That is why I do not understand the current administration...the %95 of Americans
will get a tax break, we will tax the corporations. Well, if you tax Shell oil....they
don't pay it, the cost of gas abosrbs the tax and WE PAY IT. And that goes
for EVERYTHING WE CONSUME.
Not to mention, as taxes go up on Corp. it provides further incentives to leave
the country.
Getting back to your analogy there is one small difference, your not taking your
$20 to someone else in the neighborhood. At least the $20 would stay in
the neighborhood. Your taking your $20 to another country and no one will
ever see it again AND...you've just put your bike mechanic out business and
he wont be frequenting your business anymore either, so you've lost money
there as well.
Jobs jobs jobs...we must do something as a country to help insure employement
or disaster will follow for us all.
I understand your analogy but...what your describing here is the destruction
of the middle class. Your saying were all either going to be $2 an hour peasants
or entrepreneurs, guppies or groupers. The backbone of America is the middle
class and we as country will not survive without ensuring it's growth. The rich
can not support the country financially, they typically do what the rich do and
that is hold on to their money. What ever business you start, it will fail without
the middle class to spend the money, dispite all it's credit disfunctions it's the
middle class that provides economic growth and stability. The problem comes
when the jobs evaporate and there is no money to pay the credit off.
Laws and policies can and do change, Congress should pass the law tomorrow
if you sell it here make it here or pay a huge tariff.
That is why I do not understand the current administration...the %95 of Americans
will get a tax break, we will tax the corporations. Well, if you tax Shell oil....they
don't pay it, the cost of gas abosrbs the tax and WE PAY IT. And that goes
for EVERYTHING WE CONSUME.
Not to mention, as taxes go up on Corp. it provides further incentives to leave
the country.
Getting back to your analogy there is one small difference, your not taking your
$20 to someone else in the neighborhood. At least the $20 would stay in
the neighborhood. Your taking your $20 to another country and no one will
ever see it again AND...you've just put your bike mechanic out business and
he wont be frequenting your business anymore either, so you've lost money
there as well.
Jobs jobs jobs...we must do something as a country to help insure employement
or disaster will follow for us all.
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Justyntym I was trying to keep the analogy as simple as possible. Certainly there are some flaws with it.
As for the middle class, while it's difficult to accurately define who exactly qualifies as middle class, I don't think it's too difficult to see that the manufacturing sector is not going to be able to support as large a percentage of the nation's middle class as it was able to fifty years ago. What worked for three decades following World War II is unlikely to work for the first three decades of the twenty first century.
The gap between rich and poor has been growing during the last two decades, and it is my belief globalization is going to accelerate that trend as those of us with easily learned skills increasingly find ourselves competing in a global labor market.
I'm not proposing the middle class isn't relevant. I'm suggesting that building washing machines (to keep the discussion true to the original topic) is probably not a viable option for elevating one into, or allowing one to maintain middle class status in the long run.
Don't misunderstand. I'd love it if our manufacturing sector was the global powerhouse it was thirty years ago and kids straight out of high school could walk into $20-$30/hr. factory jobs just as they did thirty years ago (hourly rate adjusted for inflation).
I'd love it if I didn't have to work so hard to save for retirement, unlike my father's generation who had pensions to look forward to when they retired from the same employer they had worked for over the last forty years. Who gets a fully funded pension from their employer today? Almost no one in the private sector. Instead if we're lucky we get a 401(k) plan to put our own money into.
Ultimately I may be dead wrong about the continued shrinking of the American middle class. I may be wrong that globalization will continue to decrease the value of unskilled and marginally skilled labor in the U.S. To be completely honest I hope I am wrong.
The problem is I can't afford to wait and expect everything to work itself out on its own, because if that globalization wave comes crashing down on me and I don't know how to swim...I'll have no one to blame but myself.
I agree we must do something to help ensure employment. Education is a great place to start.
As for the middle class, while it's difficult to accurately define who exactly qualifies as middle class, I don't think it's too difficult to see that the manufacturing sector is not going to be able to support as large a percentage of the nation's middle class as it was able to fifty years ago. What worked for three decades following World War II is unlikely to work for the first three decades of the twenty first century.
The gap between rich and poor has been growing during the last two decades, and it is my belief globalization is going to accelerate that trend as those of us with easily learned skills increasingly find ourselves competing in a global labor market.
I'm not proposing the middle class isn't relevant. I'm suggesting that building washing machines (to keep the discussion true to the original topic) is probably not a viable option for elevating one into, or allowing one to maintain middle class status in the long run.
Don't misunderstand. I'd love it if our manufacturing sector was the global powerhouse it was thirty years ago and kids straight out of high school could walk into $20-$30/hr. factory jobs just as they did thirty years ago (hourly rate adjusted for inflation).
I'd love it if I didn't have to work so hard to save for retirement, unlike my father's generation who had pensions to look forward to when they retired from the same employer they had worked for over the last forty years. Who gets a fully funded pension from their employer today? Almost no one in the private sector. Instead if we're lucky we get a 401(k) plan to put our own money into.
Ultimately I may be dead wrong about the continued shrinking of the American middle class. I may be wrong that globalization will continue to decrease the value of unskilled and marginally skilled labor in the U.S. To be completely honest I hope I am wrong.
The problem is I can't afford to wait and expect everything to work itself out on its own, because if that globalization wave comes crashing down on me and I don't know how to swim...I'll have no one to blame but myself.
I agree we must do something to help ensure employment. Education is a great place to start.
Here's another thought I wanted to segregate in a different post...
Whirlpool builds washing machines in a developing economy to save money.
Whirlpool now sells washing machines globally to both developed and developing economies because cheaper labor in Mexico allows their product to be more affordable to a larger portion of the world's population.
Profits from sales of Whirlpool washing machines made in Mexico and sold in Brazil benefit the U.S. economy. Whirlpool pays (some) taxes on the profits to the U.S. government and pays dividends to Whirlpool shareholders...many of whom are U.S. citizens who are now wealthier as a result of globalization and who pay capital gains taxes on the dividend distributions.
Any one of us can, or at some point in time could have, become part owner of Whirlpool. I doubt there's a U.S. member on this forum who hasn't at some point in their life blown at least $66.11 on something they didn't really need.
Accuse me of heresy, but here's a thought...
At some point in the future it may not matter if a single American can afford to buy a washing machine. There's a much bigger market out there...a market that in many places completely lacks washing machines.
Not comforting to think about, but worthwhile to ponder.
Whirlpool builds washing machines in a developing economy to save money.
Whirlpool now sells washing machines globally to both developed and developing economies because cheaper labor in Mexico allows their product to be more affordable to a larger portion of the world's population.
Profits from sales of Whirlpool washing machines made in Mexico and sold in Brazil benefit the U.S. economy. Whirlpool pays (some) taxes on the profits to the U.S. government and pays dividends to Whirlpool shareholders...many of whom are U.S. citizens who are now wealthier as a result of globalization and who pay capital gains taxes on the dividend distributions.
Any one of us can, or at some point in time could have, become part owner of Whirlpool. I doubt there's a U.S. member on this forum who hasn't at some point in their life blown at least $66.11 on something they didn't really need.
Accuse me of heresy, but here's a thought...
At some point in the future it may not matter if a single American can afford to buy a washing machine. There's a much bigger market out there...a market that in many places completely lacks washing machines.
Not comforting to think about, but worthwhile to ponder.
NIGHTFLIGHT
Banned
I will never purchase another whirlpool product in my life.
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