Thoughts on Language
- Thread starter Dino
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MelodicMetalGod
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1) Because of the size and borders our nation, we didn't have much use for other languages. We have only two bordering countries - Canada and Mexico. Canada speaks English. Mexico borders only a few states. That's in contrast to Europe where you have countries the size of our states and a LOT of cross-communication, thus, they learn multiple languages, both in school and on the street.
2) Arrogance/Ignorance. Not doubt a component for many or citizenry.
3) English has long been widely considered the most universal language.
IMHO, if you go to another country to live, you should make EVERY effort to learn the language during the first year. At the end of the first year, if you don't get, back home ya go!
PS: I've always struggled mightily to learn a new language, but recently, on my first ever trip to a non-English speaking country, Italy, armed with nothing more than an English-Italian dictionary and an effort to learn, within one week I was able to communicate at an functional, albeit elementary, level. I'd say that within a year or less I'd be able to converse in Italian with ease had I stayed.
That reminds me, Why didn't I stay? ???
it's not an "illusion" that the USA is easily one of the most charitable countries in the world:
and as far as "development of science, education, and skills" i find it interesting that in the listing of Novel laureates by country shows the United States far outpacing the rest of the world (309 at this writing which is over TWICE the next highest country).
Looking at a Health Care page I see:
I suppose I won't ever understand why people feel compelled to poor mouth and belittle the USA.
LOL, why do we need a passport to gain perspective? How does traveling in foreign lands make you more humble?
We can do better if there is an incentive to do so. What's the incentive?
it was a post that was derived from "feelings". i read a lot of venting, but no facts to back it up.
it got a "great post" from you because you agreed with the ideology?
it's like saying that blue heavier than green...
Mr Brown
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Admitting one's beloved country has flaws is neither bad mouthing nor belittling. It's the greatest country in which to live, (hence my residency) however it is not without room for improvement.
You think big pharma-business donates research out of the good of its corporate heart? they just can't test the drugs on humans in this country....
A passport would give you the ability too see other cultures and meet other people who have a different way of life, that way you don't have to rely on people like Glen Beck to tell you about them. When you see the obstacles that people have overcome simply to avail themselves of what we take for granted it will certainly humble you.
Removing mindsets like this is precisely the incentive.
Mr Brown
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Evidently it didn't do much good......
Traveling in a foreign country provides a perspective unlike any other. It can be as close as you can get to walking a mile in "their" shoes.
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Mr Brown
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It's not ideology that people in other countries view Americans this way. Had you spent any time in other countries you would know this.
Although given your opinion stated in your earlier post you are probably one of those folks that could stand in the middle of an African city thinking to yourself "There sure are a lot of minorities around here...."
much agreed.
oh no. not in the least. while i do believe that there are people in the medical and research circles that want to make the world a better place, capitalism is the incentive and funding is what helps make medical breakthroughs.
I've met many good people from Russia, Azerbaijan, Austria, Brazil, South Africa, Ireland, Australia, Germany, Japan, and China. I've either stayed with them extensively or they with me. While a great experience I don't see it as necessary to have a passport.
I don't know anything about Glen Beck, so I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.
Removing mindsets like this is precisely the incentive.
oh... what mindset are you talking about precisely? I like for people to show me the facts to back up an argument. If a person does that then I will give it a fair and honest look. Spew "feelings" and mindless rhetoric at me and I'll dismiss the debate as frivolous.
perhaps, i just met different people than you have. while i'm on Skype later this evening i'll ask some of their opinions (again) to see what has changed (world economy aside).
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! ~wipes tears from eyes~ that's just funny... especially coming from someone that has (possibly) only read a few of my posts and has ZERO idea of who i am nor what i believe.
agreed, it does provide a modicum of insight.
that said, without spending an extended period of time in a place with it's people all you really get is a "romanticized" view of a situation which is subject to a person's particular viewpoint.
I love language(s). Currently I'm better at reading than speaking them since I don't have anyone to practice with other than my friends on Skype. My daughter also joins in and learns through some of the speech games we play.
While I don't believe it should be mandated I like the option of children having a choice of different languages in school.
I'm a huge proponent of choice, not of mandate.
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Cervesa Por Favor?
The truth of the matter is, that we Americans need to learn other languages in order to keep what remaining leadership we have in the world intact, or if we intend to sell them goods and services ("know your customer"). However, that is not the same as having to cater to everyone that comes here to live and work at our expense - it's not their 'right' that we cater to them not speaking English here (I mean, nobody can understand us Southerners anyway..). We may get outpaced if we don't start learning other languages by someone that does. But if you come here to live and work, expect to speak our language or make an effort to learn it, just like I'd expect to learn the local language if I went to live somewhere else.
The truth of the matter is, that we Americans need to learn other languages in order to keep what remaining leadership we have in the world intact, or if we intend to sell them goods and services ("know your customer"). However, that is not the same as having to cater to everyone that comes here to live and work at our expense - it's not their 'right' that we cater to them not speaking English here (I mean, nobody can understand us Southerners anyway..). We may get outpaced if we don't start learning other languages by someone that does. But if you come here to live and work, expect to speak our language or make an effort to learn it, just like I'd expect to learn the local language if I went to live somewhere else.
Muchas Gracias Projekt.
Spectre you mention some valid truths. I'm not interested in seeing this thread deteriorate into a juvenile conversation, but I will answer the two questions you proffered.
Travel replaces the empty mind with an open one.
The best HD television available will not replicate the sensation one gets from sticking ones fingers two inches into the intricate marble carvings of the Taj Majal...a building 150 years older than the U.S. Declaration of Independence.
No photograph can convey the experience one has while viewing Michangelo's work in the Sistine Chapel.
No horror movie comes close to the experience one has while standing over Cenote Sagrado at Chichen Itza, where Mayan society performed human sacrifice in worship of their gods. It's dumbfounding what people will do to one another in the name of religion.
Tour countless buildings in Europe and Asia that have been standing for hundreds of years prior to the creation of the United States. It's about perspective, and the realization that the history and culture of the U.S. is not very mature.
No critically acclaimed movie will produce the stench of slums in Mumbai...nor will it show the lengths to which 80% of the world go to earn a standard of living at which most of us here would turn our nose up.
Touch the stones of the Appian Way...a road still in use today in some areas. A road ten times older than the U.S. Keep in mind the Roman Empire...dominant at the time, only lasted about 400 years. How old is the U.S. again?
Spending a little time outside rural America. One might realize that regardless of nationality, skin color, or religious affiliation, human beings everywhere share many things in common...the most universal of which I've seen is for their children to have a better life than they did.
It's about perspective...and travel changes perspective by providing more information. Keep in mind one can choose to actively seek information, or one can choose not to...which usually leads to ignorance.
Those are some of my thoughts about travel.
Where's the incentive to do better?
How about this one...when I interview someone with a High School Diploma for a position at my company, I have had to resort to giving a very simple logic and mathematical skills assessment test. It is absolutely pathetic what is coming through the pipeline from the education system today. There are a number of adults out there who think because they can speak English without an accent (they think...though they have an accent from wherever they are from in most cases), they are qualified for a job.
So where's the incentive?
While in India five or six years ago, I read a story in the Times of India about a call center that had recently opened in Bangalore. There were positions open for customer service representatives, working from about ten p.m. until six a.m., serving the North American market. You know the people I'm writing about...the ones we like to complain about having to talk to after we had a problem with the cheapest (computer, washing machine, stereo, etc) made in China that we purchased from Wal Mart.
These jobs in the U.S. would likely pay between $12/hr. and $14/hr. You'd have a difficult time staffing these positions in most economies with competent, reliable High School Graduates.
In India however, at this new employer there were rougly 5000 English speaking college graduates lined up to apply for 500 open positions. Working second shift...for $400/month in a country where the average annual income is $1000/year.
Is this an incentive to do better? Suddenly our inbred "mastery" of the English language doesn't have the same value it had twenty years ago.
Of course you won't see these stories on Fox News or CNN...they're too busy covering the latest celebrity death or missing blonde haired, blue eyed five year old.
Where's the incentive to do better? How about laborers in Mexico, China, and Korea who are happy to screw lug nuts on cars all day for less than what an American laborer would expect in an hour.
The incentive to do better comes from understanding that the U.S. today is not the world's dominant manufacturing power it was for thirty years after World War 2. What worked for the previous generation is not going to work in the future, no matter how much we drag our feet.
I guess it's a choice we all make individually and collectively. Personally I decided long ago I will not be that sobbing, laid off factory worker on the evening news.
It is not my intent to belittle/badmouth the U.S. On the other hand, we can keep patting ourselves on the back for what we (and previous generations) have accomplished while the train runs along without an engineer.
While it feels good to bask in the glory of our strengths, I personally believe it's more productive to continue critically assessing our weaknesses, then actively working to improve.
Feel free to disagree.
Spectre you mention some valid truths. I'm not interested in seeing this thread deteriorate into a juvenile conversation, but I will answer the two questions you proffered.
Travel replaces the empty mind with an open one.
The best HD television available will not replicate the sensation one gets from sticking ones fingers two inches into the intricate marble carvings of the Taj Majal...a building 150 years older than the U.S. Declaration of Independence.
No photograph can convey the experience one has while viewing Michangelo's work in the Sistine Chapel.
No horror movie comes close to the experience one has while standing over Cenote Sagrado at Chichen Itza, where Mayan society performed human sacrifice in worship of their gods. It's dumbfounding what people will do to one another in the name of religion.
Tour countless buildings in Europe and Asia that have been standing for hundreds of years prior to the creation of the United States. It's about perspective, and the realization that the history and culture of the U.S. is not very mature.
No critically acclaimed movie will produce the stench of slums in Mumbai...nor will it show the lengths to which 80% of the world go to earn a standard of living at which most of us here would turn our nose up.
Touch the stones of the Appian Way...a road still in use today in some areas. A road ten times older than the U.S. Keep in mind the Roman Empire...dominant at the time, only lasted about 400 years. How old is the U.S. again?
Spending a little time outside rural America. One might realize that regardless of nationality, skin color, or religious affiliation, human beings everywhere share many things in common...the most universal of which I've seen is for their children to have a better life than they did.
It's about perspective...and travel changes perspective by providing more information. Keep in mind one can choose to actively seek information, or one can choose not to...which usually leads to ignorance.
Those are some of my thoughts about travel.
Where's the incentive to do better?
How about this one...when I interview someone with a High School Diploma for a position at my company, I have had to resort to giving a very simple logic and mathematical skills assessment test. It is absolutely pathetic what is coming through the pipeline from the education system today. There are a number of adults out there who think because they can speak English without an accent (they think...though they have an accent from wherever they are from in most cases), they are qualified for a job.
So where's the incentive?
While in India five or six years ago, I read a story in the Times of India about a call center that had recently opened in Bangalore. There were positions open for customer service representatives, working from about ten p.m. until six a.m., serving the North American market. You know the people I'm writing about...the ones we like to complain about having to talk to after we had a problem with the cheapest (computer, washing machine, stereo, etc) made in China that we purchased from Wal Mart.
These jobs in the U.S. would likely pay between $12/hr. and $14/hr. You'd have a difficult time staffing these positions in most economies with competent, reliable High School Graduates.
In India however, at this new employer there were rougly 5000 English speaking college graduates lined up to apply for 500 open positions. Working second shift...for $400/month in a country where the average annual income is $1000/year.
Is this an incentive to do better? Suddenly our inbred "mastery" of the English language doesn't have the same value it had twenty years ago.
Of course you won't see these stories on Fox News or CNN...they're too busy covering the latest celebrity death or missing blonde haired, blue eyed five year old.
Where's the incentive to do better? How about laborers in Mexico, China, and Korea who are happy to screw lug nuts on cars all day for less than what an American laborer would expect in an hour.
The incentive to do better comes from understanding that the U.S. today is not the world's dominant manufacturing power it was for thirty years after World War 2. What worked for the previous generation is not going to work in the future, no matter how much we drag our feet.
I guess it's a choice we all make individually and collectively. Personally I decided long ago I will not be that sobbing, laid off factory worker on the evening news.
It is not my intent to belittle/badmouth the U.S. On the other hand, we can keep patting ourselves on the back for what we (and previous generations) have accomplished while the train runs along without an engineer.
While it feels good to bask in the glory of our strengths, I personally believe it's more productive to continue critically assessing our weaknesses, then actively working to improve.
Feel free to disagree.
Mr Brown
Registered
Meeting people (even staying with them) who are in this country does not give an accurate portrayal of how people outside this country feel about Americans. For one, it's logical to assume that they are here because they like something about this country, and secondly they are hardly likely to say negative things whilst staying with Americans, now are they? If you think that you can have any idea what a country is like by chatting to residents of it on the internet, I got a few brides to sell ya!
I have at least some idea of who you are and what you believe because you stated it quite clearly. That being said, I'm sure those particular posts don't equate to your sum total, but it allows a glimpse at your thinking.
P.S. I don't have to meet the people you met to know what it's like outside this country, I've actually been there.......
Mr Brown
Registered
Your not knowing who Glen Beck is gives me hope. It was a joke.
The mindless feelings you deride would be known to you as facts had you traveled outside this country. Your denial of it doesn't make it any less true.
It is a fact that people outside this country look upon us as lazy, arrogant, under-educated, over-consuming and uncultured. Whether that is an accurate portrayal of us as a whole is debatable, but that it is a commonly held opinion is undeniable.
There is a simple solution to this, go to a foreign country, away from the tourist areas, and see for yourself.....
Mr Brown
Registered
I don't know about your family, but my crumbsnatchers wouldn't do a damn thing but eat junk n play if it weren't for mandates......
I don't think any education about other cultures/languages/religions can be harmful to our children, as long as it is done intelligently and without bias.
Thanks. I know how easy these topics can become mistakenly inflamed when people that are passionate about their stance are misread. Text is not a great carrier of inflection.
I'll mull that over some more. See my reply to Dino about the "walking in their shoes".
heh, yep. a little further off topic, most people don't realize that the average life of a Democracy is about 200 years.
Yes indeed.
Agreed. That is why I try to work with facts instead of feelings. It is amazing though how many people (of all nationalities) form a very narrow view after limited information.
Definitely no argument there. I wish I were in a better position to send my daughter to a private school. Public school systems seriously tie the hands of some excellent teachers... but that is another thread.
yes, we must seriously and honestly look at the situation in order to move forward. While we (apparently) differ in execution style I'm thinking we don't in goal.
I have several times and rarely stay in the tourist areas since I like to see the real sights and hidden finds that other countries offer. While I agree that there are people in other countries that view us in various ways, most got that idea without actually visiting the United States nor by speaking to anyone from here. It's amazing at how civil people can be if you give them the chance and I've met some good people along the way. By the same token I've met some not so nice people, although I've that is to be expected where ever you go. (even here in the USA)
Point of interest, while in Japan I found that sometimes I could print something in English and get help much easier than trying to speak English or my "muddy" Japanese. I'm not sure if it is taught in their schools, but many people could decipher my meaning.
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