Today's Action with Police Involvement at a school

[RedBull]

That video made it all better . . .

It was better to watch
than get into a racial war . . .

 

[fallenarch]

I think a Russian hacked into RedBull's computer. Wait, could he be spreading Russian (red) bull? (Joking)

 

[jellyrug]

I think you have to look at this sort of academically first, then look at the dirty details. There is a lot that Unions improved. For example, the 40 hour work week and 2 weeks of vacation. Without a union the worker is alone and without power. Owners are predators by nature - that's an entrepreneur's role in a capitalist system.

Business used to pay the equity debt owed the worker through pensions. They didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts. Happy workers with money were loyal customers and that is what built the greatest economy the world has yet to know. In truth, Henry Ford's real contribution was not mass production, it was creating middle class consumers. However when this started to get expensive due to people living longer with expectations of better healthcare, the government stepped in with social security. So businesses stopped having to pay the equity to the workers and that came out of the taxpayer's pocket - not the company's.

So here is the academic side of this: Money and greed are insanely effective motivators. Hence, capitalism. Capitalism needs a market. Pay people decent money and they will spend that money. Raise people's standard of living and the bottom limit rises also. If a significant number of people fall below that raised bottom limit, you have destabilization - the enemy of capitalism. So capitalism is war by other means, if I may turn a phrase. A capitalist system is always out of balance, always correcting itself. These are the "correcting" systems that our version of capitalism is built on:

1. Supply and demand. Factories make stuff people want to buy. Funny, I read somewhere that less than 30% of our economy goes to things we need, most goes to things we want. So this screws around with the metering effectiveness of supply and demand.

2. The government provides incentives to point the engines of capitalism in a sustainable direction. This is primarily done with tax policy (that's why you can write-off some of your mortgage interest) but also trade policies like tariffs. This is the problem with the current President's policy on tariffs. Yes, we get the short end on many trade relationships, but those deals were made to balance our economic might when dealing with smaller economies - you can't take tariffs in isolation. Our economy needs markets in Europe and Asia to continue growing. Those countries are not going to let is in to control their markets so unequal trade relationships are the cost of playing in those markets.

3. The government maintains an even playing field (law enforcement).

4. Unions protect the workers. Remember, the majority of our economy depends on you and me buying stuff. So protecting workers is essentially protecting the market.

So, have Unions over stepped their mandate? Absolutely. But you can't just get rid of them because they are part of a system - you have to fix them. When government regulation gets out of control you can just go laissez faire, you have to fix it.

That's where we have to dive into the dirty details.

Arch, this conversation touches a sore point in my life. Twice I had to close down operations and let people go due to both Union activity and minimum wage regulations. The one in the US I had to let 2,000 employees go and close down operations. We simply could no longer compete with Asia. The second was in Germany, 750 employees gone, assets sold, same thing. I have managed factories where the same individual was machine operator, mechanic, elctrician, planner, etc. I have also managed factories where only a mechanic may do maintenance on equipment and if a production line stops, the operating personnel simply hang around until the mechanic gets things going again. During a new product design and test I got into trouble because I assisted a union employee loading stuff and it was not supposed to be my job.

If you run a business as if it is your own and you are passionate about what you are doing and you want to compete with the best, there is no place for a union. Someone said GM had to be bailed out due to their products not being competitive and it was not a union thing. All I can say, is they simply do not have my life experience. Professional individuals giving their best, innovating and working hard thrive on recognition and reward. When a union installs promotion by seniority and job protection, there is no place for those professional individuals. Innovation dies and almost in all cases those types of folks end up going somewhere else where they get proper reward for their passion and they are free to add value without restrictions imposed by unions.

My first run-in with a Union was way back in the mid 70's (yes I am old). As a junior Engineer I was doing machine shop training, making wigits on a machining center. I made a super wigit allowing me to almost double production numbers of the first wigit on a CNC. The union did not like that, wanted me written up for not following rules and doing unauthorised acitivities in a non-authorised area. Job protection, simple example to a young trainee (me) of how an organization gets destroyed.

 

[Mr Brown]

All due respect jelly, I have life experience, both practical and academic. I realize your union experience hasn't been positive, and understand why. However, to discard the institution because of your personal position fails to recognize the positive outcome experienced by many. GM needed bailed out because of sh!tty management, products and contracts. To blame it solely on organized labor is a fallacy.
Sure, if you run a business fairly there is no place for a union, but as a man of the world you know that an unprotected worker will be taken advantage of.

 

[jellyrug]

All due respect jelly, I have life experience, both practical and academic. I realize your union experience hasn't been positive, and understand why. However, to discard the institution because of your personal position fails to recognize the positive outcome experienced by many. GM needed bailed out because of sh!tty management, products and contracts. To blame it solely on organized labor is a fallacy.
Sure, if you run a business fairly there is no place for a union, but as a man of the world you know that an unprotected worker will be taken advantage of.

Quote
However, to discard the institution because of your personal position fails to recognize the positive outcome experienced by many.
Unquote

It takes all kinds to form the world we live in. Those "many" you refer to were the ones who could not handle Steve Jobs. They hated his guts. But, I respect your views and respected many of the unions I had to work with towards mutual benefit for both an organization and its employees.

 

[Mr Brown]

You say couldn't handle, I say shouldn't be required to handle. We're going to have to agree to differ.
Mutual benefit is what I have always worked towards, from both sides of the management-labor divide.

 

[michael parris heuberger]

You say couldn't handle, I say shouldn't be required to handle. We're going to have to agree to differ.
Mutual benefit is what I have always worked towards, from both sides of the management-labor divide.

Hi c10. I just picked up the thread. Good for you! Some times you just react. I know I was in New Bedford Ma. a little old lady came running out of her house yelling someone is in my house. I stopped my car an ran into her house. I did not see any one but the back door was open. I was back from Nam and only about 6 mounts out of my wheel chair from being shot in the back while I was on a dust off mission. Sometimes you just react. Yes I am allays armed. I also train 2 to 3 days a week. I have a shooting range in my yard. I also been in hot LZs 283 times. One time came back to base we had 90 holes going into our bird. Lucky none in us.

 

[Bumblebee]

Hi c10. I just picked up the thread. Good for you! Some times you just react. I know I was in New Bedford Ma. a little old lady came running out of her house yelling someone is in my house. I stopped my car an ran into her house. I did not see any one but the back door was open. I was back from Nam and only about 6 mounts out of my wheel chair from being shot in the back while I was on a dust off mission. Sometimes you just react. Yes I am allays armed. I also train 2 to 3 days a week. I have a shooting range in my yard. I also been in hot LZs 283 times. One time came back to base we had 90 holes going into our bird. Lucky none in us.

You Nam vets went through some serious action over there that many people would not understand but they should.
My cousin was there too and he couldn't believe the lack of respect he got coming home-he felt like a piece of chewed bubble gum on the bottom of someone's shoe (his words) when he came home.

Many won't talk about their experience, I for one appreciate the fact you do and appreciate what you did for your country.

 

[olajoe808]

Arch, this conversation touches a sore point in my life. Twice I had to close down operations and let people go due to both Union activity and minimum wage regulations. The one in the US I had to let 2,000 employees go and close down operations. We simply could no longer compete with Asia. The second was in Germany, 750 employees gone, assets sold, same thing. I have managed factories where the same individual was machine operator, mechanic, elctrician, planner, etc. I have also managed factories where only a mechanic may do maintenance on equipment and if a production line stops, the operating personnel simply hang around until the mechanic gets things going again. During a new product design and test I got into trouble because I assisted a union employee loading stuff and it was not supposed to be my job.

If you run a business as if it is your own and you are passionate about what you are doing and you want to compete with the best, there is no place for a union. Someone said GM had to be bailed out due to their products not being competitive and it was not a union thing. All I can say, is they simply do not have my life experience. Professional individuals giving their best, innovating and working hard thrive on recognition and reward. When a union installs promotion by seniority and job protection, there is no place for those professional individuals. Innovation dies and almost in all cases those types of folks end up going somewhere else where they get proper reward for their passion and they are free to add value without restrictions imposed by unions.

My first run-in with a Union was way back in the mid 70's (yes I am old). As a junior Engineer I was doing machine shop training, making wigits on a machining center. I made a super wigit allowing me to almost double production numbers of the first wigit on a CNC. The union did not like that, wanted me written up for not following rules and doing unauthorised acitivities in a non-authorised area. Job protection, simple example to a young trainee (me) of how an organization gets destroyed.

Well said, spot on. I'm a believer, let's ride... I wish I had known about this place before spending hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars trying to get edumacted when instead I could got it all from just reading the responses in this thread.

 

[jellyrug]

You say couldn't handle, I say shouldn't be required to handle. We're going to have to agree to differ.
Mutual benefit is what I have always worked towards, from both sides of the management-labor divide.

Well said and agree. We are all different and that is what makes life interesting. Not sure if you lean towards capitalism or socialism? There seems to be some contradiction in your views? Perhaps you are simply debating the societal norms needed to conform to the definition of capitalism?

 

[Mr Brown]

Well said and agree. We are all different and that is what makes life interesting. Not sure if you lean towards capitalism or socialism? There seems to be some contradiction in your views? Perhaps you are simply debating the societal norms needed to conform to the definition of capitalism?

In truth I feel both systems have theoretical merit, but neither are able to be applied in the real world. We need a way to motivate individual performance, which capitalism does well, but we also need to provide a bottom standard of life below which nobody exists, which socialism does well. The system we have in the US advantages the few at the expense of the many, and the gap is widening. History suggests that this situation doesn't end well. We will figure out a way to make the playing field more level, I just hope the price isn't too high.

 

[RedBull]

I think a Russian
hacked into
RedBull's computer .

Wait,
could he be
spreading
Russian
( Red ) bull ?
( Joking )

 

[Johnnie Phatt]

Yes I am allays armed. I also train 2 to 3 days a week. I have a shooting range in my yard.
It is the second sentence here that is missing form a lot of the people I know who want to own and carry
They just want to buy one and then should they feel a need to react heroically Go into a situation with guns a blazing
I practise with my 870 Paper targets up here. Moving paper targets in the US the I get the opportunity But I still an mot going to sit watching TV with it sitting beside me Just in Case I refuse to live like that. But that is me

 

[fallenarch]

I sort of think we have gotten to what stops us all from reaching a higher ground in this thread. If you are a worker, or identify with that demographic, you focus on the good things unions do and are willing to accept the bad. If you are a business owner, you focus on the bad things unions do and ignore the good.

To make progress, both sides need to understand the basic necessity of the balancing elements of the system and work to make those elements function properly. When Unions get out of balance, we need to work to pull them back into balance.

There has been a lot of money and effort spent by the management class to discredit unions. Also there is the Tyranny of the Average, where people don't want over-achievers to excel based on their effort or skill. Those things are painted as the Union's legacy. We don't even acknowledge things like the 40-hour work week, the safety gains, environment conditions, etc. we all assume as givens.

Retreating to anecdotal evidence is not going to work, we have to be dedicated to making the system balance. Management and workers must be dedicated to improving each other's lot in life and be creative about setting up checks and balances that work.

Most owners have a feudal mentality. That's just not sustainable. Unions and Managers should be a team working together to be more competitive. A symbiotic relationship.

 

[fallenarch]

Well said and agree. We are all different and that is what makes life interesting. Not sure if you lean towards capitalism or socialism? There seems to be some contradiction in your views? Perhaps you are simply debating the societal norms needed to conform to the definition of capitalism?

It's a false choice that you must be this "ism" or that "ism". None of these things have ever existed outside of a think tank!

 

[jellyrug]

It's a false choice that you must be this "ism" or that "ism". None of these things have ever existed outside of a think tank!

Not sure I get what exists outside of a think tank? In life we all make choices and have preferences. Good leaders are able to turn of bias and make the best decision of the moment. Most people cannot do that though.

 

[RedBull]

Not sure I get what exists
outside of a think tank ?

In life we all make choices
and have preferences .

Good leaders are able to turn off bias
and make the best decision for the moment .

Most people can not do that though .

 

[Johnnie Phatt]

I would like to think if management and union leaders wanted to maximize their situations they would work towards a profit sharing model. I have worked in just such a place and it was a good environment. Eventually an "I want it all and I want it now" element came to be and that was the end of a pleasant place to work.

 

[Mathewrussell52]

I would like to think if management and union leaders wanted to maximize their situations they would work towards a profit sharing model. I have worked in just such a place and it was a good environment. Eventually an "I want it all and I want it now" element came to be and that was the end of a pleasant place to work.

If they created a pleasant work place there would be no need for them....... Maybe it’s strategic......

 

[c10]

I'm not quite as good as I once was. However think it still gets the job done.
5 shoots / 357 mag j frame