Tuning when adding exhaust?

[Tenderfoot]

I took my bike to Lee's Performance here in Charlotte for a ECU flash and the first thing he told me to do was to unhook my PC. When I asked him about it he said he's tuned & dyno'ed thousands of Busas' and knew what to do.
IAP, TPS and ignition maps were remapped, adjusted RPM Limiters and disabled the Top Speed Limiter and he did the marble mod while we were in the parking lot talking!
In the end like @POWERHOUSE said I would go with what the tuner prefers.

 

[Bobby914]

in Ohio...Brocks is in reach for a dyno session

 

[Klutch556]

in Ohio...Brocks is in reach for a dyno session

I seriously considered them, but ultimately they were just too loud for me. So i was hesitant to head up there and ask them to tune my bike that has zero Brock parts on it lol.

 

[Bobby914]

Lol I understand but I dont think he would have a problem with that, buy a t shoirt if that makes him feel better, lol. Im sure he could direct you to another tuner if he wouldn't tune it, he is a good dude from my experience.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

Question....
On a dyno tune, how many tuners play with timing maps as well as fuel maps?

Reason I ask is a PC5 alone can't do timing, (needs add on module) but tuning the ecu I would assume allow you to change the timing across all gears?

I do, but only on turbo/nitrous bikes and/or when running different fuels other then 93. Otherwise, I have yet to see any substantial gains on bolt on bikes.

Most shops generally will only know how to tune a power commander. You can get a much better tune through the ecu, however I feel like some shops that do know how to tune through the ecu will push a power commander over a tuning through the ecu simply because there’s more profit in them selling you a $400 power commander then there is in a $35 flash harness to tune through the ecu.

Unless you have a gen 1 where it takes 6 min to flash the ecu every time, my vote always goes towards ecu tuning.

 

[ottafish]

I do, but only on turbo/nitrous bikes and/or when running different fuels other then 93. Otherwise, I have yet to see any substantial gains on bolt on bikes.

Most shops generally will only know how to tune a power commander. You can get a much better tune through the ecu, however I feel like some shops that do know how to tune through the ecu will push a power commander over a tuning through the ecu simply because there’s more profit in them selling you a $400 power commander then there is in a $35 flash harness to tune through the ecu.

Unless you have a gen 1 where it takes 6 min to flash the ecu every time, my vote always goes towards ecu tuning.

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond, appreciated.

The guys who will be doing my tune here down under are happy to do the ecu. They've been at it for 30+ years and have been heavily involved with Suzuki's and race teams for similar time.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Most shops generally will only know how to tune a power commander. You can get a much better tune through the ecu, however I feel like some shops that do know how to tune through the ecu will push a power commander over a tuning through the ecu simply because there’s more profit in them selling you a $400 power commander then there is in a $35 flash harness to tune through the ecu.

Unless you have a gen 1 where it takes 6 min to flash the ecu every time, my vote always goes towards ecu tuning.

I disagree, you can get a much better tune through a pc on a dyno with the RIGHT tuner. Your "feeling" about how other shops might prefer one over the other because of greed and profit is low rent. My "feeling" is that you should do what you know, do what you are good at, and let that speak for your operation. Trying to elevate your shop by putting down other shops speaks volumes. IMO you should build your reputation through results, not words. Take the high road !

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

I disagree, you can get a much better tune through a pc on a dyno with the RIGHT tuner. Your "feeling" about how other shops might prefer one over the other because of greed and profit is low rent. My "feeling" is that you should do what you know, do what you are good at, and let that speak for your operation. Trying to elevate your shop by putting down other shops speaks volumes. IMO you should build your reputation through results, not words. Take the high road !

Check out this bking idle rpm and boost worthy afr that was tuned through a pc on a dyno with the right tuner.

Allegedly this tuner did what he knows and is good at. It spoke so well of his operation that the day after the customer received his bike he had to immediately ship it out to another shop because it ran so poorly.

Precision tuned pc5’s FTW.

 

[POWERHOUSE]

Let's derail the entire thread. Giving tech advice voluntarily and freely to someone 2,000 miles away and then being accused of tailoring that advice for profit is low on your part. But you are good at that. You know damn well the King's issue is not air fuel, and that bike was not idling at 11 anything. You can twist the facts and take all the pictures you want. Making that bike correct is all I would like to see, hope you find the problem, and I am sure when you do you will make up some bullshit, because that is how you are. And I am also sure you will get it on your dyno and make 500 horse at 3 pounds of boost and then add methanol and make 600 horse. Everything is bigger in Texas, including bull poop. So go ahead and play it for what it is worth, you can get a lot of mileage out of this one. It will take you ten years to catch up to the number of great running bikes I have out there ! And even with all the vitriol you spew, I still wish you well and wish you success. You make everything personal and you should not.

 

[ottafish]

Question #2: So what can be tuned through a pc5? Is it only fuel table?

If that is inded correct and it takes, petrol, air and spark for combustion, and a free flowing exhaust and air filter, then due to me wanting the best i can afford and a complete job, (and running pump 98ron) why wouldn't i want the timing maps massaged to the best it can be?

If a pc5 can only do fuel, (and i dont know exactly what it can do) wouldn't that be like only doing 80% of the job I'm paying half a months pay for?

 

[fallenarch]

Question #2: So what can be tuned through a pc5? Is it only fuel table?

If that is inded correct and it takes, petrol, air and spark for combustion, and a free flowing exhaust and air filter, then due to me wanting the best i can afford and a complete job, (and running pump 98ron) why wouldn't i want the timing maps massaged to the best it can be?

If a pc5 can only do fuel, (and i dont know exactly what it can do) wouldn't that be like only doing 80% of the job I'm paying half a months pay for?

I think you are missing the point with the PC. It fixes the problem, which is the chitty AF mapping that comes with a stock bike or the addition of minor bolt-ons. That's it. Heck it doesn't even alter the fueling for the secondary injectors without the additional SFM. But this simple, one thing the PC does can make a big difference in the bike. Some say it makes tuning easier, I don't have an opinion on that as I have only watched the bike being tuned with a PC.

 

[ottafish]

I think you are missing the point with the PC. It fixes the problem, which is the chitty AF mapping that comes with a stock bike or the addition of minor bolt-ons. That's it. Heck it doesn't even alter the fueling for the secondary injectors without the additional SFM. But this simple, one thing the PC does can make a big difference in the bike. Some say it makes tuning easier, I don't have an opinion on that as I have only watched the bike being tuned with a PC.

Ah, cool. That makes better sense.

 

[c10]

Frank everything is Bigger, and better in Texas. Just admit you screwed up, and didn't take the time you should have with the project.
Rob knows, Jack knows, I know and so do some other people
Let me quote you sir of some statements you've made of late.

Rob it's good to have a fresh set of eyes on the bike.

I'm not a turbo builder.

I won't reply or debate anymore.

Frank your credibility has been in question.

 

[fallenarch]

As I understand it, the PC can only add fuel. If the ECU tells the injector to add X amount of fuel, the PC can alter those directions to the injector with X+ fuel or pass the direction through to the injector unchanged (X + 0). However the PC's simplicity may be it's magic. It is proven reliable, relatively cost efficient, allows access by many more tuners, and yank it off and the bike runs in factory spec immediately with no additional cost (like stripping mods and returning to OEM to sell the bike).

The premise of the PC product is that manufacturers have been delivering bikes with more and more lean fueling. Some bikes are almost unrideable at lower RPMs. This is why even with the limited capabilities of the PC unit, it's a big part of making the bike run at it's best. This also why you should have your bike dyno tuned even if you are keeping it stock - you'll be surprised at the rideability improvements. Your next question will be why do manufacturers put chit like this on the market and the answer is emissions restrictions.

A full exhaust and a "race" filter are very basic engine mods that usually can't net much more than 10-15 hp at best. The PC (with a dyno tune) can balance the fueling for this as most OEM ECU's can't make this much of an adjustment automatically. An ECU flash can do everything a PC can do an much, much more - provided you have a reliable tuner to hack the ECU. Good thing is you don't need any additional parts to do it (other than the harness). Bad news is that flashing an ECU is in effect absolute power, so you better trust the tuner completely.

PS: the skillset needed to dyno tune a Busa with the PC is general, meaning it works for most modern bikes. The skillset needed to flash the ECU is bike specific, and I wouldn't trust it to anyone but a Busa specialist. Unfortunately that means as the bike gets older and older the flashers out there will move on to newer bikes with more demand. Just the way it works.

 

[Tb3]

Fallenarch, I thought fuel and timing can be adjusted with a PC?
Bazzaz is only fuel, correct?
A ecm reflash can have fuel and timing changed with a knowledgeable tuner?
Are these statements true or false?

 

[fallenarch]

Frank everything is Bigger, and better in Texas. Just admit you screwed up, and didn't take the time you should have with the project.
Rob knows, Jack knows, I know and so do some other people
Let me quote you sir of some statements you've made of late.

Rob it's good to have a fresh set of eyes on the bike.

I'm not a turbo builder.

I won't reply or debate anymore.

Frank your credibility has been in question.

Both BCP and PH are valuable contributors to this forum in the services they offer this community, their input on technical issues that come up on the forum and even their direct sponsorship. I don't think openly fighting each other helps anything, certainly doesn't maximize their advertising dollars! Personally I would not think twice about taking my bike to either of these shops.

If you run a business you know that no matter what your intentions, chit happens. The best thing to do is to admit mistakes and make things right. Often time people respect your business more by the way you handle failures then how well you pretend to be perfect. Anyway, was hoping to stop this thread from getting out of hand and ending up in a place we all regret.

Done preaching and yes, I'm only this clear headed with other people's problems.

 

[fallenarch]

Fallenarch, I thought fuel and timing can be adjusted with a PC?
Bazzaz is only fuel, correct?
A ecm reflash can have fuel and timing changed with a knowledgeable tuner?
Are these statements true or false?

I don't know. I was told by my tuner that the PC only does fuel.

PS: Dangit! I hate posting that "can't we all just get along" stuff then being called out and I can't call @Tb3 names! Apparently the PCV can cut fuel (says -100/+200). The PCV does not alter timing but the full family of dynojet products does all kinds of things including timing adjustments, quick shifter, etc.. Check this link out for manufacturer's details : Power Commander Motorcycle Fuel Injection Tuning Module

 

[Tb3]

I don't know. I was told by my tuner that the PC only does fuel.

PS: Dangit! I hate posting that "can't we all just get along" stuff then being called out and I can't call @Tb3 names! Apparently the PCV can cut fuel (says -100/+200). The PCV does not alter fueling but the full family of dynojet products does all kinds of things including timing adjustments, quick shifter, etc.. Check this link out for manufacturer's details : Power Commander Motorcycle Fuel Injection Tuning Module

According to the link the pc5 does do fuel and timing.
Ive never owned a power commander tuner but recently bought a bazazz for my spade 150 and it only does fuel.
I hate it when I read these threads thinking that I got my next mods researched and figured out then I read stuff and get confused all over again, lol.

 

[Boosted Cycle Perf]

According to the link the pc5 does do fuel and timing.
Ive never owned a power commander tuner but recently bought a bazazz for my spade 150 and it only does fuel.
I hate it when I read these threads thinking that I got my next mods researched and figured out then I read stuff and get confused all over again, lol.

It does timing on Harley’s. On sportbikes you need to add the ignition module in.

 

[fallenarch]

what's a harley?