Why rear brakes only?

[skydivr]

We have been here before with almost an identical thread. While I may putt-putt down the interstate and use my rear sparingly, I found out really quick that it's not such a good idea in panic or high performance situations - my first newb trackday I put my foot on the rear brake, and slid halfway down the rear straight at Nashville International Raceway - since then me and the front brake have become much more intimate. There are some AMA/MotoGP racers who have mastered using the rear (Colin Edwards for one) to help get it lined up in a turn, but they are few and far between. For must of us street/amateur trackday riders, consistently using the rear creates muscle memory, which in a panic situation is more likely to toss your azz 20 ft. in the air when you unnecessarily create a highside. It is a bad idea to put in the mind of most new riders to this forum that using the rear brake is anything other than flirting with disaster - we'd be better off to encourage them to explore the limits of the front brake first.

P.S. This opinion is for normal/agressing street riding on pavement - gravel/sand/grass is a different subject entirely.

 

[dmallord]

UNbelievable!

This thread is getting worse

 

[kml]

Front brakes are for pussys and girly men.
What? Are you afraid to run into stuff?
I like to go long, I never stop. Stopping is for quitters.
I'm such an ugly badazz shyte sees me coming and it scampers outta my way.

Besides, when I'm riding drunk, I can hardly find where I live, let alone the motorcycle's controls.

cheers
ken

 

[BusaBret]

If you use the rear brake, do not run the ultra sticky track approved tires, do not dress like your on the pole of a MotoGP race and have not removed your mudflap and reflectors, you need to sell your bike and take up golf

FORE

From my dunce stool :cookoo:

 

[Tufbusa]

I use both. The rear brake is great for scrubbing a little speed off in a corner. I use it for this purpose almost every time I ride.
I think the problem most people have with the rear is using too much of it.
In wet, and panic situations, both need to be used to control the deceleration of both wheels.
My rear brake feels really spongy, I don't know if this is a defect, or if that's just how it is, but I like it and use that to my advantage.
I don't think I would want it any stronger.
Grabbing only the front brakes changes the geometry of the chassis by creating dive, which shortens trail and makes the bike easier to turn.
This is advantageous to someone racing on a track, allowing for quicker turn in. This is less necessary for someone on the street.
Combing some rear brake with the front helps settle the suspension, maintaining the longer trail, which increases stability and smooths the line.

Here's an article about suspension setup that talks about the effects of the changing suspension geometry on handling characteristics.
Motorcycle Suspension Setup

What does any of that have to do with brakes? They change the geometry too.
I think, if you use the fronts only, to create a change on purpose, and choose not to use any rear because you understand how the system works; so be it.
But to refuse to use it because someone else failed to understand how to us it, is naive and dangerous.
If you need to scrub some speed while already committed to a line in a corner, grabbing the front could be catastrophic, while a little rear could get you home for dinner.
It was said by someone earlier, if if didn't have a legitimate purpose, the MFGs would not bother putting it on there.

The article you quoted has a quote at the end "This article was written to educate you". For future reference I'd suggest avoiding suspension articles with no author to educate yourself on braking. I've attended numerous schools over the years and not one has encouraged use of the rear brake to burn off speed on an 70 degree sunny day other than the MSF course which does not differentiate sport bikes from cruisers thus the 70/30 theory. Works great for cruiser guys due to the excessive weight and long wheelbase they can't lift the rear tire off the pavement no matter how hard they squeeze the lever. On a sport bike, it's an entirely different game.

The reason you get away with burning off a little speed in a corner with the rear brake is because you aren't leaned in more than 20 degrees. Try leaning it at 45*+ and see where that rear brake puts you. The proper way to correct to much speed in a corner is more lean angle. Adding lean is much safer than applying brakes on either end.

Nick Ienitsch has a great book "Sportbike Riding Techniques" which DOES have an author with a vast background with sportbikes. Buy it! It has a ton of braking information that may change your views on braking. Also, Andrew Trevitt has a book "Sportbike Suspension Tuning". Buy it as well if you want to improve your understanding of how suspension works and it's effects on geometry. Andrews book has great illustrations and simplifies suspension.

Braking is a skill that you have yet to master. You can improve your braking skills on the street but you will never master the brakes without track time. It's only at the track where you can brake hard on every corner on every lap. Following other riders who are better than you getting a visual of just how hard and deep you can brake is golden. Take note of how many fast guys actually use the rear brake. I doubt you will see a single occurrence. If you do he will be so far advanced over you you'll only keep him in sight for two or three corners. If you are really interested in mastering the brakes, attend a Pridmore, Code or Rich Oliver school.

I tell guys the throttle will give you bragging rights the brakes will save your life!

Practice Practice Practice

 

[KYT]

The proper way to correct to much speed in a corner is more lean angle. Adding lean is much safer than applying brakes on either end.

+1

The author is listed right below the quote you referenced "Sean Onipede". I've never heard of him, and I don't race either, so you are correct about the lean angles. But the OP asked about:

Why do some guys only use rear brakes on the steet?

Also the reason I posted the link was because he talks about the effects of the geometry on the motorcycle, not for a reference on braking.
Could of swore I said that, maybe I forgot to mention it. *shrugs*

 

[bigjack7679]

I use both as u should

+1

 

[spencerrr]

Does anyone practice emergency braking in all types of conditions, so you can learn the limits of your bike? I use both. Practice before you get into the real deal and your learned reflex will carry you through.

 

[KYT]

Does anyone practice emergency braking in all types of conditions, so you can learn the limits of your bike? I use both. Practice before you get into the real deal and your learned reflex will carry you through.

I do this with my car, but how does one safely do this with a bike?

 

[kml]

I do this with my car, but how does one safely do this with a bike?

What follows below is a cut and paste from;
Motorcycle Safety Site

Learning to 'Threshold brake'
Requires great care!

By: James R. Davis

---

You know that you get the best braking performance by getting as close to skidding as possible without skidding. This is called 'threshold braking'. You also know that if you skid the front tire you are almost certainly going to crash, at least if you are not traveling in a straight line. So clearly practicing in an effort to learn how to achieve the best possible braking performance involves some danger and should not be done casually or by riders who are new to their bikes.

Learning threshold braking needs to be done with great care.

It doesn't matter if you are traveling at 60 MPH or 30 MPH, you can threshold brake. So it makes no sense to practice this skill at more than 30 MPH. Further, it makes no sense to try to learn threshold braking while also using both brakes. You learn this skill using ONLY the front brake. Once it is mastered you can then move on to learning how to use the rear brake at the same time.

NOTE: If you bike can do a stoppie (like most sport bikes), then if the Coefficient of Friction between your tires and the roadway surface is high enough you CANNOT threshold brake - that is, if the Coefficient of Friction is high enough, then you will do a stoppie before reaching the point where the front tire will skid.

Let me make a few points here that you should UNDERSTAND before you begin this kind of practice:

• A tire skids when you attempt to decelerate (or accelerate) it at a rate greater than the Coefficient of Friction available.
• The Coefficient of Friction between your tire and concrete is USUALLY higher than that of asphalt.
• The TEXTURE of the roadway changes the Coefficient of Friction (i.e., Rougher texture = higher CofF). In other words, you CANNOT stop as quickly on smooth concrete as you can on highway concrete.
• The MOISTURE content of the roadway changes the Coefficient of Friction.

What all of that means is that you CANNOT rely only on muscle memory to acquire this skill. That is, the 'feel' of the braking effort is not enough feedback to let you know that you are close to skidding. Fortunately, there is another form of feedback available to you - the sound of the tire as it gets close to skidding.

You need to ease into the threshold zone (meaning you use small increments of added braking pressure on the front brake lever) until you can actually hear the front tire begin to 'sing' to you as imminent traction loss occurs. NO FURTHER than that.

Obviously you only practice this skill while vertical and traveling in a straight line so that if you exceed that threshold and the tire begins to actually skid you can release the brake lever and recover. The entire purpose of practicing this is to learn to feel and hear when you are approaching the threshold.

While the front tire is 'singing' it is leaving a light 'skid mark'. It will not be a dashed line. It will be rather faint, not dark.

A dashed skid mark can result from the use of ABS. It, too, uses threshold braking but instead of holding the braking pressure as close to skidding as possible it releases then reapplies the brake causing the dashed 'imminent skid mark'.

---

Copyright © 1992 - 2012 by The Master Strategy Group, all rights reserved.
http://www.msgroup.org

(James R. Davis is a recognized expert witness in the fields of Motorcycle Safety/Dynamics.)

 

[dmallord]

nice kml.

 

[Dino]

The time to learn how your brakes work is not when you need to make an emergency stop. Using both is very effective in a quick stop situation much more effective than just the front. As TufBusa said it takes practice.

 

[RussellJ]

UNbelievable!

This thread is getting worse

 

[speighty58]

I only read about not using the rear brake on here, quite a while ago.
Been paranoid to go near the thing since.

Is there any time you can use the rear brake?.

I use mine quite a bit. Handy if you need to scrub a bit of speed off pre bend.

 

[SKnight]

One thing the cut and paste above doesn't mention is that sportbikes very much can lock the front tire, it's one of the first things I do on a bike I don't know. I want to know how fast I can apply the brake before lockup, how quickly does it transfer it's weight.

We all know that a progressive squeeze is proper braking technique. If you grab the brake suddenly then the weight can't transfer and plant the front tire allowing it to lock pretty easily. Different bikes do it at different times and pressures. That's why a progressive squeeze works best, you approach the point of lockup or lifting the rear slowly and in a controlled fashion.

But if a truck pulls out in front of you there isn't time for a 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 squeeze. You're quickly going for the brake and your initial hit is going to be harder than normal. What you want to have programmed is that your initial hit is more like a3 or a 4 instead of a 6 or an 8 and from 4 you ramp up 5.6.7.8.9.10 with ten being either the point of lockup or rear tire lift. How do you find out? Practice and at all different speeds and pavements because concrete is completely different than old asphalt and 10 MPH is wildly different than 100MPH. Once you have a practiced feel for straight up and dry conditions you can apply that knowledge to other traction conditions. Think of it as a baseline. If you're in a corner and run up on something you didn't see around the bend you'll know better how much brake you can use before lockup even though leaned over you have far less braking traction to use. It's going to happen eventually, may as well know as much as you can beforehand.

One thing I don't like hearing is that folks don't ever use the rear brake. If your rear tire is on the ground you're sacrificing stopping power. And I mean anytime the rear is on the ground it can help. I use my rear brake all the time, in fact it's very rare for me to use only the front in normal use. In the mountains I use the front only entering a corner, on the highway if I need to trim a little speed off it's front only cause I don't want to bother moving my foot.

If you're using so much front brake you have the rear lifted now you've given up directional control plus the bike rotating over the front tire is wasted energy (Just as a wheelie wastes energy when accelerating.) so you're better off practicing emergency braking using both brakes and keeping the rear tire on the pavement.

As for the original question, folks that come from dirt bikes or cruisers use more rear brake cause it's what they're used to. Off road the rear is more controllable and stabilizing and with a cruiser the way they're laid out the weight stays mostly over the rear tire, the longer the forks the more that bias shifts backwards. They never practice to find out sportbikes need more front brake to stop well.

Plus using the rear brake properly extends the life of your front pads, will greatly enhance your low speed maneuvering skills, helps you stop without so much nose dive making you look smoother which mean you have better control.

 

[Busacure]

If your rear tire loses traction while using front and rear brakes, the difference is almost instantly transfered to the front. That could overwhelm the front tires traction

 

[RussellJ]

If your rear tire loses traction while using front and rear brakes, the difference is almost instantly transfered to the front. That could overwhelm the front tires traction

That is false, completely.

 

[SKnight]

If your rear tire loses traction while using front and rear brakes, the difference is almost instantly transfered to the front. That could overwhelm the front tires traction

I'll second the false. You lose the braking effort that the rear was providing but very little changes with regard to front and rear loading.

 

[Tufbusa]

The time to learn how your brakes work is not when you need to make an emergency stop. Using both is very effective in a quick stop situation much more effective than just the front. As TufBusa said it takes practice.

You are absolutely correct on a heavy bike. A sport bike is entirely different. No one in a competition will use the rear brake to assist in burning speed. Watch Moto GP where winning a race mean big bucks and you'll see daylight under Casey Stoner's rear tire in most every brake zone. If it was more effective to use less front brake and add rear brake, all those guys would be doing so.

The rear brake is simply not an effective means of burning off speed on a sport bike where traction is not an issue!

With that said, if you have Pilot Road's, Roadsmart's, Blanca Shinko or any other touring tire which limits the traction available to the front tire you will be well served to use both brakes.

Braking is not a one size fits all. What works today on your favorite road may not work well the next day due to changing conditions. It takes time, lots of time and practice to get braking figured out. Nick Ienatsch says in his book "Sportbike Riding Techniques" lf you choose only one aspect of riding to master, make it brakes! At some point in your riding career they may very well save you life!

 

[BusaBret]

With that said, if you have Pilot Road's, Roadsmart's, Blanca Shinko or any other touring tire which limits the traction available to the front tire you will be well served to use both brakes.

I am glad you didn't mention Avon Storms I have had my rear Avon a foot off the ground under hard braking, with my wife's big arse on the back seat, without losing traction to the front tire.

By the way, if I want her to know I said that.....I will tell her.

From my dunce stool :cookoo: