Afghanistan....

[Bumblebee]

I'd say a few of our members have spent time in Afghanistan...what do we think of how things are going there now?

The Taliban certainly seem to have developed a strong force over the last few years...sad considering we had them on the ropes and almost set for a knock out blow...the only thing that kept them alive was the fact they were granted sanctuary in neighboring countries so they were able to regroup....kind of like the NVA in Viet Nam and how they used their sanctuary countries...

I do think we did everything possible to equip and train the ANA for success....however they seem to be less than capable of getting it done...

 

[mark3evo]

Afghanistan a tough nut to crack
we failed in late 1832 - 1880
Russians failed in the 1980's (CIA gave instruction to Taliban)
and unfortunately US and Coalition been there 21 years - what did it achieve ??

Taliban in this for the long term

too many Canadian/US/UK lost Serviceman in that place

EDIT - If i recall and no doubt will be corrected one of the reasons was to chase down Bin Laden and al Qaeda training grounds and then got bogged down......

 

[TallTom]

I'd say a few of our members have spent time in Afghanistan...what do we think of how things are going there now?

The Taliban certainly seem to have developed a strong force over the last few years...sad considering we had them on the ropes and almost set for a knock out blow...the only thing that kept them alive was the fact they were granted sanctuary in neighboring countries so they were able to regroup....kind of like the NVA in Viet Nam and how they used their sanctuary countries...

I do think we did everything possible to equip and train the ANA for success....however they seem to be less than capable of getting it done...

Yeah I remember when Trump was in office and when the data showed they were 95% contained and heard, that wasn't Trump actions that was Obama. Trump just happened to be in office.

Now we have Obama 2.0 happening and already the Taliban is on the rise.

*sigh*

I'll wait to hear how it's Trump's fault.

Bush started the whole destabilization of the region.

Saddam Hussein seems like the good old days now.

 

[mark3evo]

Bush started the whole destabilization of the region.

Saddam Hussein seems like the good old days now.

No WMD ever found in Iraq - Tony Blair is satan re-incarnated

SH kept all the factions together ( and did allow all faiths of religion) somehow with a little help of poison gas in earlier years- it seems par for the course in Middle east.

power vaccum SH once removed ISIS / daesh stepped in - nasty bastards they are

 

[TallTom]

No WMD ever found in Iraq - Tony Blair is satan re-incarnated

SH kept all the factions together ( and did allow all faiths of religion) somehow with a little help of poison gas in earlier years- it seems par for the course in Middle east.

power vaccum SH once removed ISIS / daesh stepped in - nasty bastards they are

WMDs were moved to Syria. Yes they were there but SH pulled off a removal to Syria. That's where we blew it. Our Intel wasn't wrong. We just had too porous a network of informants.

Not any different now. We (the infidels) are used to accomplish power shifts.

SH might have been a tyrant, but we sure didn't have the chyt to deal with that we do now.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

WMDs were moved to Syria. Yes they were there but SH pulled off a removal to Syria. That's where we blew it. Our Intel wasn't wrong. We just had too porous a network of informants.

Not any different now. We (the infidels) are used to accomplish power shifts.

SH might have been a tyrant, but we sure didn't have the chyt to deal with that we do now.

You have any proof of that?

 

[macka]

Yeah, what the!! The UN said it was an illegal invasion and breached the United Nations charter

 

[ROADTOAD1340]

Afghanistan a tough nut to crack
we failed in late 1832 - 1880
Russians failed in the 1980's (CIA gave instruction to Taliban)
and unfortunately US and Coalition been there 21 years - what did it achieve ??

Taliban in this for the long term

too many Canadian/US/UK lost Serviceman in that place

EDIT - If i recall and no doubt will be corrected one of the reasons was to chase down Bin Laden and al Qaeda training grounds and then got bogged down......

And Aussies , some killed training ANA , by ANA !!

 

[TallTom]

3 major cities have fallen to the Taliban. SINCE FRIDAY!

The WH is expressing shock at how the security forces are so quick to crumble.

 

[Bumblebee]

3 major cities have fallen to the Taliban. SINCE FRIDAY!

The WH is expressing shock at how the security forces are so quick to crumble.

I'm not shocked at all at how fast the ANA and ANP are crumbling.....

There were only 7500 NATO (including US) troops in Afghanistan just before the pull out....there is no way the Taliban would have been suppressed by that low number of troops, there were around 500,000 troops at the height of operations and the Taliban still prevailed.....

Nothing or nobody will stop them.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Shock? As long as we’ve been there didn’t we have the time to build/rebuild their own army? Didn’t that become a giant part of why we’ve stayed there for so long? If so, the question is, how come we haven’t we done this and been observing their army’s performance for the last year or so?

 

[Bumblebee]

Shock? As long as we’ve been there didn’t we have the time to build/rebuild their own army? Didn’t that become a giant part of why we’ve stayed there for so long? If so, the question is, how come we haven’t we done this and been observing their army’s performance for the last year or so?

There was a complete mission which lasted for years to train and sort out their military and police force (Op Attention).......they were mentored and observed in combat situations and all reports said they were capable.

One of the issues is the Taliban operate in an irregular manner much like the VC did, this makes them very hard to fight.

 

[TallTom]

I'm not shocked at all at how fast the ANA and ANP are crumbling.....

There were only 7500 NATO (including US) troops in Afghanistan just before the pull out....there is no way the Taliban would have been suppressed by that low number of troops, there were around 500,000 troops at the height of operations and the Taliban still prevailed.....

Nothing or nobody will stop them.

They have to express shock! They certainly won't act any differently.

They certainly aren't going to say they screwed up.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Re: ‘Nothing or nobody will stop them.’

The US has enough (might) to stop them just as we had during Vietnam. To accomplish that we would have to fight them the way they fight us and it’s doubtful that the worldwide public would approve of the tactics.

 

[Bumblebee]

Re: ‘Nothing or nobody will stop them.’

The US has enough (might) to stop them just as we had during Vietnam. To accomplish that we would have to fight them the way they fight us and it’s doubtful that the worldwide public would approve of the tactics.

Well, we were there in force and threw quite a bit of ordnance and manpower at them and they are still there after 20 yrs of us pounding the heck out of them...they were able to slink back and forth across borders the same as the VC were....if you look at the composition of the Taliban, not many of them are Afghans...they are made up of all different ethnic backgrounds....almost a well trained mercenary force...we captured some which were ex SOF operators from various nations...

Spec Ops were there in force and conducted thousands of missions and only made a small dent in the Taliban's combat effectiveness...

 

[Bumblebee]

The pull out of US troops was started by the previous US administration months and months ago and the current administration merely supported the decision...

The mainstream media is pointing the finger at the present US administration....

If the Taliban were able to ramp up offensive operations in such force and speed, they must have been amassing their strength for some time just awaiting the opportunity to attack..

I reckon it will only be a matter of time before they take ultimate power of the country...they were in power before the NATO incursion.

 

[TallTom]

The pull out of US troops was started by the previous US administration months and months ago and the current administration merely supported the decision...

The mainstream media is pointing the finger at the present US administration....

If the Taliban were able to ramp up offensive operations in such force and speed, they must have been amassing their strength for some time just awaiting the opportunity to attack..

I reckon it will only be a matter of time before they take ultimate power of the country...they were in power before the NATO incursion.

Pulling out of any conflict requires a plan. Part of that plan is what you put in place to keep it on a trajectory of progress. We have used the "independent military" we train to keep order twice now. We could have kept a "policing force" there to hold those troops together until we can get some leadership in place.

If the previous administration wanted them out, they could have unplugged in about 3 months, years ago. There is a reason why there were forces being maintained.

Sadly we need something like the Shah of Iran type solution.

Instead we walk away leaving it right where it was 20 years ago. And wasted lives above all else. Then add time, resources and $$ lost.

 

[fallenarch]

If the Afghans would fight the Taliban could be held at bay. That's the problem: The Afghans want the US to be the protector and they drift from side to side whenever the wind blows in the right direction. The Afghans don't have a sense of country, maybe they never will. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, just that our concept of a country is not theirs. They are literally tribal, and so federalized government is silly to them. The reason they were pulled out is that military force will never change anything there, it's just a way to spend money on equipment and get young soldiers battle experience.

The truth is the Afghans see us as just another power imposing itself on them. If they wanted the reforms we imposed on their societies, they would have made efforts in thousands of years to move in those directions. I've heard it said that to reform a country it must be like with the ability to be formed. Afghanistan is more like water, you simply can't form it into something new.

Biden decided to end this money pit mainly because we need to spend the money right here at home now. Obama didn't stop this war because he didn't want to politically admit this was a misguided war that was never winnable in the first place. Trump, in a rare moment of clear thought, decided there was nothing in Afghanistan to fight for and decided to leave.

Could we win? Absolutely. But we would be imposing a world view on a people who don't want it. And the minute we turned our back they would go right back to their tribal, authoritarian, devaluation of the individual's way of life. Showing the Afghans "the way" and leaving was never going to work, and it didn't. In less than a year the country is right back where it was 20 years ago when we first set foot in the country.

 

[mark3evo]

as always corruption is one of the issues pretty sure US and allies pumped billions into that place
Afghan government are corrupt - where did it all go . US Civil industries and contractors made a killing out there.

Taliban leave them to it , truth be told alot of the population want this lot , women's rights goes down the swany

 

[Bumblebee]

If the Afghans would fight the Taliban could be held at bay. That's the problem: The Afghans want the US to be the protector and they drift from side to side whenever the wind blows in the right direction. The Afghans don't have a sense of country, maybe they never will. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, just that our concept of a country is not theirs. They are literally tribal, and so federalized government is silly to them. The reason they were pulled out is that military force will never change anything there, it's just a way to spend money on equipment and get young soldiers battle experience.

The truth is the Afghans see us as just another power imposing itself on them. If they wanted the reforms we imposed on their societies, they would have made efforts in thousands of years to move in those directions. I've heard it said that to reform a country it must be like with the ability to be formed. Afghanistan is more like water, you simply can't form it into something new.

Biden decided to end this money pit mainly because we need to spend the money right here at home now. Obama didn't stop this war because he didn't want to politically admit this was a misguided war that was never winnable in the first place. Trump, in a rare moment of clear thought, decided there was nothing in Afghanistan to fight for and decided to leave.

Could we win? Absolutely. But we would be imposing a world view on a people who don't want it. And the minute we turned our back they would go right back to their tribal, authoritarian, devaluation of the individual's way of life. Showing the Afghans "the way" and leaving was never going to work, and it didn't. In less than a year the country is right back where it was 20 years ago when we first set foot in the country.

Pretty much sums it up right there...

Pulling out of any conflict requires a plan. Part of that plan is what you put in place to keep it on a trajectory of progress. We have used the "independent military" we train to keep order twice now. We could have kept a "policing force" there to hold those troops together until we can get some leadership in place.

If the previous administration wanted them out, they could have unplugged in about 3 months, years ago. There is a reason why there were forces being maintained.

Sadly we need something like the Shah of Iran type solution.

Instead we walk away leaving it right where it was 20 years ago. And wasted lives above all else. Then add time, resources and $$ lost.

Willie summed this up pretty well....right along the lines I was thinking...

The war fighting mission was only part of the operation...mentoring, equipping and training the ANA and ANP was an ever on-going task...it started shortly after the first NATO boot hit the talcum sand...and continued right up to today. I spent time mentoring their forces and to be honest, they were less than enthusiastic. Even after countless training hours and guidance, they would look at us for more guidance at each and every engagement..it got kind of frustrating as they just didn't seem to grasp what we were teaching them....

There have been several "invasions" of Afghanistan which have failed over the millennia....Russia's attempt in the late '70s was unsuccessful and they threw more than 2 divisions at the conflict only to be sent packing by a seemingly backward people.

Roll around to the NATO "invasion" and nothing has changed, the Afghanistan terrain swallows up armies like nobody's business. Even with the US military might leading the NATO allied mission, the Taliban have prevailed and flourished...