Afghanistan....

as always corruption is one of the issues pretty sure US and allies pumped billions into that place
Afghan government are corrupt - where did it all go . US Civil industries and contractors made a killing out there.

Taliban leave them to it , truth be told alot of the population want this lot , women's rights goes down the swany
There is much truth in this...we have been jamming western culture down the throats of many nations who really don't want it but are fearful of force being used. Governments have their noses stuck in places they don't belong and generally an instability of a region is the result.

The money flowing for the Afghanistan operation was staggering....little wonder so many countries started bowing out...it got to be a big money pit.
 
Pretty much sums it up right there...

Willie summed this up pretty well....right along the lines I was thinking...

The war fighting mission was only part of the operation...mentoring, equipping and training the ANA and ANP was an ever on-going task...it started shortly after the first NATO boot hit the talcum sand...and continued right up to today. I spent time mentoring their forces and to be honest, they were less than enthusiastic. Even after countless training hours and guidance, they would look at us for more guidance at each and every engagement..it got kind of frustrating as they just didn't seem to grasp what we were teaching them....

There have been several "invasions" of Afghanistan which have failed over the millennia....Russia's attempt in the late '70s was unsuccessful and they threw more than 2 divisions at the conflict only to be sent packing by a seemingly backward people.

Roll around to the NATO "invasion" and nothing has changed, the Afghanistan terrain swallows up armies like nobody's business. Even with the US military might leading the NATO allied mission, the Taliban have prevailed and flourished...
Yet the forces you helped train were given passing marks by the evals that said our job training them was done.

I agree the Taliban will be the governing tribe, until a new tribe get organized and powerful enough.

I too have spent time over there. Even our well financed allies, with the exception of Israel, aren't really that motivated to learn our ways of military methods.

The ME as a whole have been fighting one another forever.

We are too smug to admit we have no business trying to show them why our way is better.

We supposedly went there to wipe out terrorism. Instead we convinced everyone that they need to vote and have schools and plumbing and electricity. That would lead them naturally away from a life led by terror.

How did that work out for us?

I used Iran as an example. We installed the Shah. They had a by and large thriving country during that time.

Yes he was our puppet. They overthrew him.

How'd that work out for them?

We only did part of the job in Afghanistan. We screwed up thinking they'd finish the job.
 
Yet the forces you helped train were given passing marks by the evals that said our job training them was done.

I agree the Taliban will be the governing tribe, until a new tribe get organized and powerful enough.

I too have spent time over there. Even our well financed allies, with the exception of Israel, aren't really that motivated to learn our ways of military methods.

The ME as a whole have been fighting one another forever.

We are too smug to admit we have no business trying to show them why our way is better.

We supposedly went there to wipe out terrorism. Instead we convinced everyone that they need to vote and have schools and plumbing and electricity. That would lead them naturally away from a life led by terror.

How did that work out for us?

I used Iran as an example. We installed the Shah. They had a by and large thriving country during that time.

Yes he was our puppet. They overthrew him.

How'd that work out for them?

We only did part of the job in Afghanistan. We screwed up thinking they'd finish the job.
Yup, that's pretty much my take not having been there. But why don't people want to adopt our military methods? Do they prefer the Russian methods or the Chinese?
 
Yup, that's pretty much my take not having been there. But why don't people want to adopt our military methods? Do they prefer the Russian methods or the Chinese?
It's not that they don't want to adopt our military tactics and methods, it's just that how we conduct business is too complicated and takes far too much manpower to execute...

Half of the people can't read or write and were raised with very different ideological beliefs. To them we are the infidel and not to be trusted...even the SOF units were questionable as to their loyalties, we had to watch our 6 at all times when doing any ops with them.

Even today, to say the word "Russian" will start a fight as that hatred runs deep and the average person doesn't even know anything about China.

One of our commanders joked that we should introduce video games and porn to the young men and then all the fighting would stop as they would be otherwise occupied...
 
I think it will come out in the wash there is a large country backing the Taliban....there is no way they could have amassed this large assault force and have the capabilities to seize and hold positions without an outside entity supporting them..

Apparently there was discussion of a Chinese influence....
 
World news
·
Last night
US intel concerned for Kabul as the Taliban claims capture of at least nine provincial capitals in Afghanistan in less than a week
A ninth provincial capital has been captured in less than a week as Faizabad, capital of the northern province of Badakhshan, has fallen to the Taliban, AFP reports. Clashes between the Taliban and Afghan forces have intensified as foreign militaries, including the US and NATO, are scheduled to withdraw from Afghanistan by August 31. A US intelligence assessment anticipates that the country's capital Kabul could fall to Taliban within 90 days, according to Reuters.
 
yessiree Afghanistan pretty much will be a stronghold of religious wackos
for years Northern Pakistan harboured and promoted the Taliban

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World news
·
Last night
US intel concerned for Kabul as the Taliban claims capture of at least nine provincial capitals in Afghanistan in less than a week
A ninth provincial capital has been captured in less than a week as Faizabad, capital of the northern province of Badakhshan, has fallen to the Taliban, AFP reports. Clashes between the Taliban and Afghan forces have intensified as foreign militaries, including the US and NATO, are scheduled to withdraw from Afghanistan by August 31. A US intelligence assessment anticipates that the country's capital Kabul could fall to Taliban within 90 days, according to Reuters.
What I don't track is there were less than 10,000 NATO troops left in Afghanistan before the with-drawl order came....that number of troops would have done nothing to deter the Taliban especially when during the peak we had many times that number and the Taliban still survived.

The (the Taliban) must have been waiting on masse in Pakistan or some other country to launch this massive offensive...I wonder if they have been bolstered from former ISIS and Al Qaeda forces?
 
What I don't track is there were less than 10,000 NATO troops left in Afghanistan before the with-drawl order came....that number of troops would have done nothing to deter the Taliban especially when during the peak we had many times that number and the Taliban still survived.

The (the Taliban) must have been waiting on masse in Pakistan or some other country to launch this massive offensive...I wonder if they have been bolstered from former ISIS and Al Qaeda forces?
from what i see Afghan forces just swap sides in the contested areas and join the tailban on mass, grow a beard and wear a head turban.
 
from what i see Afghan forces just swap sides in the contested areas and join the tailban on mass, grow a beard and wear a head turban.
Sadly when the US led NATO invasion of Afghanistan started, the Taliban were running the country....now after all these years, it looks as though the cycle has come full circle with the Taliban running the country again...everything we did there will be reversed.
 
A potted history ...............

Find out more on the Afghan conflict 2001-2021​

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In the shadow of Mazar-e-Sharif's intricately tiled Blue Mosque, men and women strolled around last week in a visibly more relaxed social atmosphere.
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image captionResidents the BBC spoke to in nearby Mazar-i-Sharif were fearful of the Taliban resurgence
The government are still in control in the city and almost everyone I spoke to expressed concern about what the Taliban's resurgence will mean, particularly for the "freedoms" younger generations have grown up with.
But back in Balkh district the Taliban are formalising their own rival government. They've taken over all the official buildings in the town, bar one large, now abandoned police compound.
It used to be the headquarters of a bitter rival, the local police chief, and was partly destroyed in a suicide bombing by the militants as they fought for control of the area.
The face of the Taliban's district governor, Abdullah Manzoor, lights up with a broad grin when he talks about the operation, whilst his men chuckle. The fight here, as in so many places in Afghanistan, is deeply personal as well as ideological.
Some things haven't changed since the Taliban takeover; orange-clad street cleaners are still reporting for work, as are some bureaucrats. They're overseen by a newly appointed Taliban mayor, seated at a broad wooden desk, with a small white flag of the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" positioned in one corner.
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image captionThe Taliban mayor in Balkh says business rates have gone down since the group took over the area
He used to be in charge of ammunition supplies, now it's taxes - and he tells me proudly the group charges business owners less than the government used to.
The transition from military to civilian life is a work in progress, though. A Taliban fighter still grasping his gun, who moves to pose behind the mayor during our interview, is ushered away by more senior figures.
In other places, however, the insurgents' hardline interpretation of Islamic scripture is more visible. At the local radio station, they used to play a mixture of Islamic music and general popular hits.
Now it's only religious chants. Haji Hekmat says they banned music promoting "vulgarity" from being played in public, but insists individuals can still listen to what they want.
I've been told, however, of a local man being caught listening to music in the bazaar. To punish him, Taliban fighters are said to have made him walk barefoot in the baking sun, until he lost consciousness.

Twenty years of conflict in Afghanistan – what happened when?

From 9/11, to intense fighting on the ground, and now full withdrawal of US-led forces, here’s what happened.


9/11​

11 September 2001
Al-Qaeda, led by Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan, carries out the largest terror attack ever conducted on US soil.
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Image captionThe World Trade Centre is reduced to rubbleIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY
Four commercial airliners are hijacked. Two are flown into the World Trade Centre in New York, which collapses. One hits the Pentagon building in Washington, and one crashes into a field in Pennsylvania. Nearly 3,000 people are killed.

First air strikes​

7 October 2001
A US-led coalition bombs Taliban and al-Qaeda facilities in Afghanistan. Targets include Kabul, Kandahar and Jalalabad.
The Taliban, who took power after a decade-long Soviet occupation was followed by civil war, refuse to hand over Bin Laden. Their air defences and small fleet of fighter aircraft are destroyed.

Fall of Kabul​

13 November 2001
The Northern Alliance, a group of anti-Taliban rebels backed by coalition forces, enters Kabul as the Taliban flee the city.
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Image captionCoalition-backed Northern Alliance fighters ride tanks into Kabul as the Taliban retreatIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY
By the 13 November 2001, all Taliban have either fled or been neutralised. Other cities quickly fall.

New constitution​

26 January 2004
After protracted negotiations at a “loya jirga” or grand assembly, the new Afghan constitution is signed into law. The constitution paves the way for presidential elections in October 2004.

Hamid Karzai becomes president​

7 December 2004
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Image captionHamid Karzai led anti-Taliban groups around Kandahar before becoming presidentIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY
Hamid Karzai, the leader of the Popalzai Durrani tribe, becomes the first president under the new constitution. He serves two five-year terms as president.

UK troops deployed to Helmand​

May 2006
British troops arrive in Helmand province, a Taliban stronghold in the south of the country.
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Image captionSoldiers of the Parachute Regiment lead the first UK deployment to HelmandIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY
Their initial mission is to support reconstruction projects, but they are quickly drawn into combat operations. More than 450 British troops lose their lives in Afghanistan over the course of the conflict.

Obama’s surge​

17 February 2009
US President Barack Obama approves a major increase in the number of troops sent to Afghanistan. At their peak, they number about 140,000.
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Image captionUS troops in intense combat operations in the south of the countryIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY
The so-called “surge” is modelled on US strategy in Iraq where US forces focussed on protecting the civilian population as well as killing insurgent fighters.

Osama Bin Laden killed​

2 May 2011
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Image captionBin Laden is traced to a compound located less than a mile from a Pakistani military academyIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY
The leader of al-Qaeda is killed in an assault by US Navy Seals on a compound in Abbottabad in Pakistan. Bin Laden’s body is removed and buried at sea. The operation ends a 10-year hunt led by the CIA. The confirmation that Bin Laden had been living on Pakistani soil fuels accusations in the US that Pakistan is an unreliable ally in the war on terror.

Death of Mullah Omar​

23 April 2013
The founder of the Taliban, Mullah Mohammed Omar, dies. His death is kept secret for more than two years.
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Image captionThe Taliban leader is believed to have suffered a shrapnel wound to his right eye in the 1980sIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYEPA
According to Afghan intelligence, Mullah Omar dies of health problems at a hospital in the Pakistani city of Karachi. Pakistan denies that he was in the country.

Nato ends combat operations​

28 December 2014
At a ceremony in Kabul, Nato ends its combat operations in Afghanistan. With the surge now over, the US withdraws thousands of troops. Most of those who remain focus on training and supporting the Afghan security forces.

Taliban resurgence​

2015
The Taliban launch a series of suicide attacks, car bombings and other assaults. The parliament building in Kabul, and the city of Kunduz are attacked. Islamic State militants begin operations in Afghanistan.
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Image captionKabul's international airport is struck on 10 August 2015IMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY

Death toll announcement​

25 January 2019
Afghan President Ashraf Ghani says more than 45,000 members of his country’s security forces have been killed since he became leader in 2014. The figure is far higher than previously thought.

US signs deal with Taliban​

29 February 2020
The US and the Taliban sign an “agreement for bringing peace” to Afghanistan, in Doha, Qatar. The US and Nato allies agree to withdraw all troops within 14 months if the militants uphold the deal.
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Image captionThe deal lays out a timetable for full withdrawalIMAGE COPYRIGHT BYGETTY

Date for final withdrawal​

11 September 2021
US forces are scheduled to withdraw from Afghanistan by 11 September 2021, exactly 20 years since 9/11. There are strong indications that the withdrawal may be complete before the official deadline.
Haji Hekmat insists no such thing happened. As we leave the station, he gestures to some of the young men working there, pointing out they don't have beards.
"See! We're not forcing anyone," he says, grinning.
It's clear the group do want to portray a softer image to the world. But in other parts of the country the Taliban are reported to be behaving much more strictly. The differences may depend on the attitudes of local commanders.
With reports of extra-judicial revenge killings and other human rights abuses in some of the areas they've captured, the Taliban have been warned by Western officials they risk turning the country into a pariah state if they try to seize it by force.
What many associate most closely with the Taliban's previous stint in power, is the brutal punishments meted out under their interpretation of Sharia law.
Last month in the southern province of Helmand, the group hanged two men accused of child kidnapping from a bridge, justifying it by saying the men had been convicted.
In Balkh, on the day we visit a Taliban court session, all the cases are related to land disputes. Whilst many fear their form of justice, for others it at least offers the possibility of a quicker resolution than the notoriously corrupt government system.
"I've had to pay so many bribes," complains one of the litigants as he discusses his previous attempts to resolve the case.
The Taliban judge, Haji Badruddin, says he's not yet ordered any corporal punishment in the four months he's been in office, and emphasises the group has a system of appeal courts to review serious verdicts.
But he defends even the harshest penalties. "In our Sharia it's clear, for those who have sex and are unmarried, whether it's a girl or a boy, the punishment is 100 lashes in public.
"But for anyone who's married, they have to be stoned to death… For those who steal: if it's proved, then his hand should be cut off."
He pushes back against criticism of the punishments as incompatible with the modern world.

"People's children are being kidnapped. Is that better? Or is it better that one person's hand is chopped off and stability is brought in the community?"
For now, despite the Taliban's rapid advance, the government remains in control of Afghanistan's biggest cities. The coming months are likely to see protracted and increasingly deadly violence as the two sides wrestle for control.
I ask Haji Hekmat if he's sure the Taliban can win militarily? "Yes," he replies. "If peace talks are not successful, we will win, God willing."
Those talks however, have stalled, and the Taliban's repeated demand for the creation of an "Islamic government" appears tantamount to a call for their opponents to surrender.
"We have defeated both the foreigners," says Haji Hekmat, "and now our internal enemies."
 
There has been little to no success in conflicts since the second war....the cold war was a draw but is still being fought on certain levels.

Korea was never won, Viet Nam was lost, the Soviets got their arses handed to them in Afghanistan and we walked away (20 yrs was long enough), we did nothing in Somalia, Iraq is in shambles, Syria is in shambles, Libya is a mess...and the list goes on and on...

Kind of sad really....
 
There has been little to no success in conflicts since the second war....the cold war was a draw but is still being fought on certain levels.

Korea was never won, Viet Nam was lost, the Soviets got their arses handed to them in Afghanistan and we walked away (20 yrs was long enough), we did nothing in Somalia, Iraq is in shambles, Syria is in shambles, Libya is a mess...and the list goes on and on...

Kind of sad really....
unfortunately most conflicts have to be won by those living it
US Civil war 1860's
UK civil war 1642-1651
etc

( with the exception of WWII )
 
Well, the premise was that in order to participate in a modern, global economy you must have the stability of a democratic government. This is probably largely true. You can't have the world depending on Afghanistan for a certain material or service and then have a Talibon take over cause a break in the supply chain for the world. I don't think we anticipated that people would receive the US as just another armed strong-man force trying to tell them how to raise their goats.

I don't think we get that everyone doesn't want to be the United States. We also don't get that guys like Sadam are necessary given where these regions are in their development. Most of those wars in Asia and Africa were proxy wars. Essentially fighting in a region so we don't have a World War.

There is also the fact that these wars are lucrative for American business. As harsh as it sounds, we need a place to test our weapons, train soldiers, and design new ones to sell to the US.
 
unfortunately most conflicts have to be won by those living it
US Civil war 1860's
UK civil war 1642-1651
etc

( with the exception of WWII )
There are civil wars occurring all over the globe as we speak and many of them have no end in sight..

The US is smart of late, they make sure there is a NATO mission (or at least a NATO buy in) before launching into a conflict. The first invasion of Iraq was solely a weapon test...many of the US platforms have not been used in a conflict before and they needed to be tested...

I forgot to mention Bosnia/Kosovo, both were successes as that conflict could have spiraled out of control in a real hurry...it was worse there for me than Afghanistan was...
 
There has been little to no success in conflicts since the second war....the cold war was a draw but is still being fought on certain levels.

Korea was never won, Viet Nam was lost, the Soviets got their arses handed to them in Afghanistan and we walked away (20 yrs was long enough), we did nothing in Somalia, Iraq is in shambles, Syria is in shambles, Libya is a mess...and the list goes on and on...

Kind of sad really....
The cold war was effectively "won" when Russia collapsed and abandoned all the territories it had done land grabs in. Eastern Europe mainly.

We foolishly did little to prevent people like Putin, who has a good memory of how Old Russia was successful, from being able to rebuild.

What changed since WW II was the concept of building a beneficial payback for our efforts. The term "The winner gets the spoils" has been largely abandoned by us. And adopted by everyone else.

We expend all of our resources, then walk away.

You rightfully bring up oil. We could/should have taken control of all of Iraq's oil. Put all of that oil into the hands of all the allies that participated it.

Unfortunately Afghanistan is largely a wasteland for this idea.

And I see on the news as the Taliban continue to overtake cities, the thousands of Humvees, tanks, helicopters.
Why on earth don't we destroy this stuff with our very capable A-10s?
 
albeit ... Nato forces looked the other way , allowed Serbian army to butcher 3,000 men and boys near Sarajeyo
Yes, the Srebrenica massacre where over 8000 men and boys were killed in 1995.....

We were under the UN at the time and the UN declared that area to be a safe area...I believe the Dutch were in charge of that particular AOR...

I was all over the Balkans conducting various ops....I will tell you, there were well armed, uniformed Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian troops who absolutely hated each other and would stop at nothing to conflict damage and injury on anyone they encountered...women, kids, babies, old people, even live stock were all subjected to their wrath....we as IFOR, then UNPROFOR then SFOR were helpless to stop them.

They would engage UN troops in fire-fights or delay actions then perpetuate ethic cleansing behind the lines.....nasty stuff....without divulging too much, I fell into one of these "death pits" in the dark....I had a lot of sleepless nights over that.
 
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