Afghanistan....

it depends if oil is involved or not, no one cared about Rwanda genocides !
The oil motive is interesting. Now that we can produce all we need and Russia has always been sitting on a bunch and now China looks to have a good source in Africa I'm not sure the middle east matters like it did. I think the accelerated move to electrical will have a huge impact on the oil and it's possible the western powers decide the middle east is just too much trouble and not needed.
 
Yes, the Srebrenica massacre where over 8000 men and boys were killed in 1995.....

We were under the UN at the time and the UN declared that area to be a safe area...I believe the Dutch were in charge of that particular AOR...

I was all over the Balkans conducting various ops....I will tell you, there were well armed, uniformed Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian troops who absolutely hated each other and would stop at nothing to conflict damage and injury on anyone they encountered...women, kids, babies, old people, even live stock were all subjected to their wrath....we as IFOR, then UNPROFOR then SFOR were helpless to stop them.

They would engage UN troops in fire-fights or delay actions then perpetuate ethic cleansing behind the lines.....nasty stuff....without divulging too much, I fell into one of these "death pits" in the dark....I had a lot of sleepless nights over that.
i remember that episode yes 8,000 not 3k- the film "behind enemy lines" gives a flavour of a modern European war
 
The oil motive is interesting. Now that we can produce all we need and Russia has always been sitting on a bunch and now China looks to have a good source in Africa I'm not sure the middle east matters like it did. I think the accelerated move to electrical will have a huge impact on the oil and it's possible the western powers decide the middle east is just too much trouble and not needed.
If ever there is a nuclear war, it will start from the Middle East.

Pakistan's support of the Taliban allowed it to survive more than 20 years of war.


I know this is a cruel perspective, but being the US, being the country who has to set the humanitarian example to the rest of the world is a huge disadvantage towards stopping the enemy from gaining momentum. In the end, radical Islam will always survive by using a human shield of innocent people, while they pursue their goal of eradicating infidels.
 
End result kinda reminds me of Vietnam . . . thousands of lives wasted and trillions of dollars of debt for the US taxpayer.
Soooooo . . . what was the point?
 
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End result kinda reminds me of Vietnam . . . thousands of lives wasted and trillions of dollars of debt for the US taxpayer.
Soooooo . . . what was the point?
Not just great debt for the US but all nations involved....and not only monetary debt....we lost lives and had many more wounded and maimed in that conflict...

At the time as a soldier who was there, we believed in our mission and nothing will ever take that away, we can't let it.....the lessons learned will be the take away from that operation.
 
I believe there is a bit more to it than that.
When the Soviets played their war games over there, we (Americans) actually supported Bin-Laden and the Taliban, irrespective of what the CIA would tell you. The motive was not wanting the Soviets in control due to the cold war. When the Soviets pulled out, America switched sides and the Taliban will never forget that. It was one of the main reasons Bin-Laden was involved in 9/11. There is a lot the public never see as it is hidden by political agendas.

At that time, I was a South African, living in South Africa, should you not know this, the US proclaimed that they did not support apartheid, however behind the scenes they fully supported the South African government, as handing over the reigns to the ANC, backed by the Soviet Union, would immediately have meant the Soviets have an advantage around the Cape sea route. It was only after the Soviet Union was abandoned, that Mandela was let free and fair elections were held.

South Africa today is a mess, 6-8 on the world list for homicides per capita, and let's see what happens in Afghanistan. There is already genocide and the Taliban as well as Al Qaeda will never ever be our friend. Interesting times.

I believe we should have gotten out of there a long time ago, in fact, we should never have gone in and the same goes for Iraq. Iraq was a similar example, we supported Saddam, in fact facilitated him towards keeping Iran in check, then came Kuwait and we abandoned him, he became the enemy.

If we look at history, colonialism by the British and interference by America leaves chaos behind, from North Korea, to Pakistan/India to many parts of Africa, to the Middle East.
 
I believe there is a bit more to it than that.
When the Soviets played their war games over there, we (Americans) actually supported Bin-Laden and the Taliban, irrespective of what the CIA would tell you. The motive was not wanting the Soviets in control due to the cold war. When the Soviets pulled out, America switched sides and the Taliban will never forget that. It was one of the main reasons Bin-Laden was involved in 9/11. There is a lot the public never see as it is hidden by political agendas.

At that time, I was a South African, living in South Africa, should you not know this, the US proclaimed that they did not support apartheid, however behind the scenes they fully supported the South African government, as handing over the reigns to the ANC, backed by the Soviet Union, would immediately have meant the Soviets have an advantage around the Cape sea route. It was only after the Soviet Union was abandoned, that Mandela was let free and fair elections were held.

South Africa today is a mess, 6-8 on the world list for homicides per capita, and let's see what happens in Afghanistan. There is already genocide and the Taliban as well as Al Qaeda will never ever be our friend. Interesting times.

I believe we should have gotten out of there a long time ago, in fact, we should never have gone in and the same goes for Iraq. Iraq was a similar example, we supported Saddam, in fact facilitated him towards keeping Iran in check, then came Kuwait and we abandoned him, he became the enemy.

If we look at history, colonialism by the British and interference by America leaves chaos behind, from North Korea, to Pakistan/India to many parts of Africa, to the Middle East.
So . . to sum it up, you're saying that the major Govts around the world are CHEATS, LIARS, and TURNCOATS and canNOT be TRUSTED.
Ok . . I got it.
Thanks. But I figured that out early in my life.
The Creator of all things is my King, my Government and my Father.
Thank God for that.
 
If we look at history, colonialism by the British and interference by America leaves chaos behind, from North Korea, to Pakistan/India to many parts of Africa, to the Middle East.
At least we did build a fine Railway network in India :laugh:
 
So . . to sum it up, you're saying that the major Govts around the world are CHEATS, LIARS, and TURNCOATS and canNOT be TRUSTED.
Ok . . I got it.
Thanks. But I figured that out early in my life.
The Creator of all things is my King, my Government and my Father.
Thank God for that.
LOL, I think that is a bit harsh.

It's kinda like keeping your Mother In Law out of your marriage, otherwise everything goes into the wrong direction.

We should leave these countries to sort out their own problems and stop trying to rescue the world. And if they become a threat to us, we should blast them off the face of the planet, something we are not allowed to do because we want to set the prime example.

There are advantages and disadvantages. From an economic point of view, the US having its military everywhere and trying to create peace everywhere allows the Dollar to remain strong as the world reserve currency. It means for investors the Dollar remains a safe investment. It means Americans can maintain a wealthy lifestyle while running up enormous debt. The disadvantage is the cost of trying to do this is running up further debt by the trillions and it sure divides nations who cannot resolve their internal conflicts by whatever means due to our interference.
 
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End result kinda reminds me of Vietnam . . . thousands of lives wasted and trillions of dollars of debt for the US taxpayer.
Soooooo . . . what was the point?
i do agree but don't forget RT (Russia Today) love to promote anti US rhetoric
 
It's an ugly world out there....so much interference by "developed" nations into other countries and trying to ram their ideology down their throats....

Nothing new however...
 
End result kinda reminds me of Vietnam . . . thousands of lives wasted and trillions of dollars of debt for the US taxpayer.
Soooooo . . . what was the point?
Hi. Fight nice and you will lose, fight to win and you will win. The people in Nam and Afghanistan are not like us. The NVA you could not trust them, they would not get out of the bird sometimes until we turned our guns on them we had to watch them all the time. It is a big big mess.
 
I believe there is a bit more to it than that.
When the Soviets played their war games over there, we (Americans) actually supported Bin-Laden and the Taliban, irrespective of what the CIA would tell you. The motive was not wanting the Soviets in control due to the cold war. When the Soviets pulled out, America switched sides and the Taliban will never forget that. It was one of the main reasons Bin-Laden was involved in 9/11. There is a lot the public never see as it is hidden by political agendas.

At that time, I was a South African, living in South Africa, should you not know this, the US proclaimed that they did not support apartheid, however behind the scenes they fully supported the South African government, as handing over the reigns to the ANC, backed by the Soviet Union, would immediately have meant the Soviets have an advantage around the Cape sea route. It was only after the Soviet Union was abandoned, that Mandela was let free and fair elections were held.

South Africa today is a mess, 6-8 on the world list for homicides per capita, and let's see what happens in Afghanistan. There is already genocide and the Taliban as well as Al Qaeda will never ever be our friend. Interesting times.

I believe we should have gotten out of there a long time ago, in fact, we should never have gone in and the same goes for Iraq. Iraq was a similar example, we supported Saddam, in fact facilitated him towards keeping Iran in check, then came Kuwait and we abandoned him, he became the enemy.

If we look at history, colonialism by the British and interference by America leaves chaos behind, from North Korea, to Pakistan/India to many parts of Africa, to the Middle East.
All true. My brother-in-law lived in SA for years and he told me similar stories. If you recall, Sadam asked our ambassador if we cared if he invaded Kuwait. We said go ahead and when he did we turned on him and attacked. Rumors are that Sadam was threatening to trade oil in rubbles instead of the dollar and that was why we set him up and then hunted him down like a dog and killed him. It was a clear message to anyone who wants to mess with the dominance of the mighty dollar. All of this is tied together:

The CIA supports Afghani Arabs fighting the USSR by funneling money and weapons through Pakistan. The movie "Charlie Wilson's War" chronicles a Hollywood version of this history. Osama Bin Laden was a prominent leader of the Afgan resistance. Bin Laden, a dedicated follower of Islam, turned immediately anti-US after the war.

1991 The Gulf War. Sadam's claim to Kuwait goes back to the fact that it was a part of the Persian empire until the late 1800s when it was colonized by the British. After the war, the US stationed troops and planes in Saudi Arabia to enforce the no-fly zone. Many Muslims were enraged at Americans launching attacks on Muslims from their holy land.

1993 1st World Trade Center Bombing. A truck bomb actually detonated in the basement parking garage of the tower but the damage was not catastrophic. The attack was pinned on the so-called "blind sheik" and his motive was to stop American meddling in Arab lands and spreading their "immoral" lifestyle. The Arab world is further inflamed when the Sheik is tried and convicted to prison in the US.

2001 September 11. Bin Ladin lead terrorists fly planes into the twin towers initiating a progressive collapse. His motives were the same as the blind sheik's.

2001-2011 Iraq War. We attack Iraq despite the fact that they had nothing to do with 9/11. There are even claims that Sadam warned the US that plans were being made for a massive attack by Al-Qaeda. Sadam is found and hung by US forces. Who knows why Bush attacked Iraq but given he was an oilman, Sadam trading in rubbles sounds very plausible. In any event, Sadam was the only Sunni power capable of opposing Shia-led Iran. Iran and Iraq in fact had just battled an 8-year war to a stalemate. So in killing Sadam, we set in motion the emergence of Iran, leaving every country we have a constructive relationship with in the middle east in serious jeopardy by a Shia revolution.

2001 The Afgan war. This was designated the war on terror and we set out to decimate Al-Qaeda camps in Afganistan. Many of these camps were in Taliban-held areas and we even negotiated with them to give up Al-Qaeda. Afganistan was not a sexy war. When we dropped ordinance, it was often very unlikely the bombs would destroy anything as valuable as the bomb! We roamed the country looking for high-value targets and soon lost interest in the war. Bush even stated, "he didn't really think much about Bin Laden." The war morphed into a nation-building effort and ended just a week ago!

2011 Bin Laden killed. A small group of people were still looking for Bin Laden and got a break on his location. A mission was launched and Bin Laden was killed. The Blind Sheik died in prison in 2017 I think. With those 2 gone, the really serious terror threats seem to have died down a bit.

2015 Iran Nuclear Deal. So back to Iran that has been turned loose by the killing of Sadam. Iran is getting more and more aggressive now that they are unopposed in establishing Shia control. They set their eyes on getting nukes. If Iran is successful in getting nukes, we will have to arm other Arab countries to establish balance. But these kinds of weapons in this part of the world is the proverbial pandora's box laid wide open. The US was worried that either Russia or Pakistan might give Iran nuke technology. Russia would be buying an alliance with the most powerful middle eastern country. Pakistan and Iran's relationship goes back many years to helping Pakistan fight India. So the deal got the western world access to see what Iran is up to in nuclear facilities and a promise to not develop nuclear weapons. The agreement was weak but there were no viable alternatives.

So that's the quick look at the mess we have made. It is amazing how messy this all has been. The Fascinating thing is Biden walking away from Afghanistan. It signals a new western view where the oil in the middle east is just not worth dealing with all of these expensive conflicts. But if we leave them to fester, who knows how they will come back to bite us.
 
All true. My brother-in-law lived in SA for years and he told me similar stories. If you recall, Sadam asked our ambassador if we cared if he invaded Kuwait. We said go ahead and when he did we turned on him and attacked. Rumors are that Sadam was threatening to trade oil in rubbles instead of the dollar and that was why we set him up and then hunted him down like a dog and killed him. It was a clear message to anyone who wants to mess with the dominance of the mighty dollar. All of this is tied together:

The CIA supports Afghani Arabs fighting the USSR by funneling money and weapons through Pakistan. The movie "Charlie Wilson's War" chronicles a Hollywood version of this history. Osama Bin Laden was a prominent leader of the Afgan resistance. Bin Laden, a dedicated follower of Islam, turned immediately anti-US after the war.

1991 The Gulf War. Sadam's claim to Kuwait goes back to the fact that it was a part of the Persian empire until the late 1800s when it was colonized by the British. After the war, the US stationed troops and planes in Saudi Arabia to enforce the no-fly zone. Many Muslims were enraged at Americans launching attacks on Muslims from their holy land.

1993 1st World Trade Center Bombing. A truck bomb actually detonated in the basement parking garage of the tower but the damage was not catastrophic. The attack was pinned on the so-called "blind sheik" and his motive was to stop American meddling in Arab lands and spreading their "immoral" lifestyle. The Arab world is further inflamed when the Sheik is tried and convicted to prison in the US.

2001 September 11. Bin Ladin lead terrorists fly planes into the twin towers initiating a progressive collapse. His motives were the same as the blind sheik's.

2001-2011 Iraq War. We attack Iraq despite the fact that they had nothing to do with 9/11. There are even claims that Sadam warned the US that plans were being made for a massive attack by Al-Qaeda. Sadam is found and hung by US forces. Who knows why Bush attacked Iraq but given he was an oilman, Sadam trading in rubbles sounds very plausible. In any event, Sadam was the only Sunni power capable of opposing Shia-led Iran. Iran and Iraq in fact had just battled an 8-year war to a stalemate. So in killing Sadam, we set in motion the emergence of Iran, leaving every country we have a constructive relationship with in the middle east in serious jeopardy by a Shia revolution.

2001 The Afgan war. This was designated the war on terror and we set out to decimate Al-Qaeda camps in Afganistan. Many of these camps were in Taliban-held areas and we even negotiated with them to give up Al-Qaeda. Afganistan was not a sexy war. When we dropped ordinance, it was often very unlikely the bombs would destroy anything as valuable as the bomb! We roamed the country looking for high-value targets and soon lost interest in the war. Bush even stated, "he didn't really think much about Bin Laden." The war morphed into a nation-building effort and ended just a week ago!

2011 Bin Laden killed. A small group of people were still looking for Bin Laden and got a break on his location. A mission was launched and Bin Laden was killed. The Blind Sheik died in prison in 2017 I think. With those 2 gone, the really serious terror threats seem to have died down a bit.

2015 Iran Nuclear Deal. So back to Iran that has been turned loose by the killing of Sadam. Iran is getting more and more aggressive now that they are unopposed in establishing Shia control. They set their eyes on getting nukes. If Iran is successful in getting nukes, we will have to arm other Arab countries to establish balance. But these kinds of weapons in this part of the world is the proverbial pandora's box laid wide open. The US was worried that either Russia or Pakistan might give Iran nuke technology. Russia would be buying an alliance with the most powerful middle eastern country. Pakistan and Iran's relationship goes back many years to helping Pakistan fight India. So the deal got the western world access to see what Iran is up to in nuclear facilities and a promise to not develop nuclear weapons. The agreement was weak but there were no viable alternatives.

So that's the quick look at the mess we have made. It is amazing how messy this all has been. The Fascinating thing is Biden walking away from Afghanistan. It signals a new western view where the oil in the middle east is just not worth dealing with all of these expensive conflicts. But if we leave them to fester, who knows how they will come back to bite us.
One thing which was great about my former job was I never worried or concerned myself with the politics of why I was doing what I was doing. We were aware of the nuances but couldn't let those influence what we had to do.

We were given mission orders and ROEs then off we went to get it done...such a simple life. It wasn't until I retired that I started to (sort of) delve into why we were needed to do what we did.....in reality, it is a scary world out there, people are living and dying at the whim of a political leader.

Although I was aware of the points you brought forward...to see them all accumulated in one spot is sobering.
 
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