Almost lost it today!

[Tufbusa]

Apparently you have never had the rear tire off the ground. All I ask is you consider ones views who has stood on the brakes tens of thousands of times to reduce speeds from tripple digits to managable speeds as well as witnessed numerous getoffs due to rear brake use.

All I can say is:
Get a decent set of leathers, this I am sure of.
All my other advice is my own haphazard experiences.
The laws of physics are pretty much absolute when it comes to motorcycles.
Trust me on the leathers!

 

[teddypenn]

i was always taught to use both the front and the rear together, and its worked great for me.

 

[TruWrecks]

Out of three track days on both the Busa and CBR last year, I think I touched the rear brake maybe twice. The front tire was the only one still on the ground a few of those times. I even hit some less than smooth pavment and I still kept the shiny side up.

The instructors for 2-Fast are all veteran racers. Every one of those guys told us NOT to use the rear brake unless it's for an emergency stop. Then, and only then, you use both brakes. Once you use the back brake you better be sure the bike is going straight or you will be preparing for a highside.

There are certain situations I will touch my rear brake in a corner, but that is very rare, and I use very little. The more I learn, the less I touch it.

 

[suzuki4life]

The instructors for 2-Fast are all veteran racers. Every one of those guys told us NOT to use the rear brake unless it's for an emergency stop. Then, and only then, you use both brakes. Once you use the back brake you better be sure the bike is going straight or you will be preparing for a highside.

.

If you are applying an "all or nothing" logic to braking...then sure....I agree with what is said here.


But like in any operation of a motor vehicle you must learn "controlled braking".

I am guessing the lack of skill is why companies are pushing for ABS on bikes so much....

 

[raydog]

Since the implications of this thread are so important, it beckons for maximum science and minimum sarcasm.
Suz4life, please explain situations where the rear brake is called for on the street.
Respectfully, I think the majority of quality information on efficient motorcycle braking deemphasizes rear brake use. Some of the early instructors from California Superbike School did a comparative study of panic stops.....all front brake vrs combo front/rear application. The stopping distances were nearly identical! The variable noted however, was the significant additional overall control available to the "front brake only" portion of the experiment.
As stated, touring and cruiser bikes with blended systems (front/rear applications from foot lever simultaneously as built into the system)and extremely heavy bikes (probably 650 lbs. or more) do benefit from front AND rear application in certain situations (dry surface, bike totally vertical, etc.).....that would only include a Busa riding double and/or major luggage.
For the sportbike rider (including Busas) there is a reason that 1)CaliSup School requires hot laps with NO rear brake use (lap times usually drop) 2)Virtually ALL the riding schools discuss this in their standard curriculum (Code, Schwantz, Pridmore, etc.).

I have gone through three sets of front pads on my Busa and my rear pads are still the first set I put on (and still have a lot of life in em).
Raydog

 

[suzuki4life]

Since the implications of this thread are so important, it beckons for maximum science and minimum sarcasm.
Suz4life, please explain situations where the rear brake is called for on the street.
Respectfully, I think the majority of quality information on efficient motorcycle braking deemphasizes rear brake use. Some of the early instructors from California Superbike School did a comparative study of panic stops.....all front brake vrs combo front/rear application. The stopping distances were nearly identical! The variable noted however, was the significant additional overall control available to the "front brake only" portion of the experiment.
As stated, touring and cruiser bikes with blended systems (front/rear applications from foot lever simultaneously as built into the system)and extremely heavy bikes (probably 650 lbs. or more) do benefit from front AND rear application in certain situations (dry surface, bike totally vertical, etc.).....that would only include a Busa riding double and/or major luggage.
For the sportbike rider (including Busas) there is a reason that 1)CaliSup School requires hot laps with NO rear brake use (lap times usually drop) 2)Virtually ALL the riding schools discuss this in their standard curriculum (Code, Schwantz, Pridmore, etc.).

I have gone through three sets of front pads on my Busa and my rear pads are still the first set I put on (and still have a lot of life in em).
Raydog

controlled braking should be used at any time brakes are applied on any vehicles...

controlled braking is the slowing of a vehicle to a stop...without locking the wheel.

Once you lock the wheel, you lost control of the brake.

Like I said...you want proof...read Cycle world's write up on the abs system by honda.

 

[neoBusa]

i was always taught to use both the front and the rear together, and its worked great for me.

+1

 

[raydog]

controlled braking should be used at any time brakes are applied on any vehicles...

controlled braking is the slowing of a vehicle to a stop...without locking the wheel.

Once you lock the wheel, you lost control of the brake.

Like I said...you want proof...read Cycle world's write up on the abs system by honda.

OK the Cycle World write up is good, but ABS is an entirely different part of this braking discussion. Jam on the brakes and the system filters away your panic reaction and creates the "maximum impending skid" reaction with software/hydraulics. We are talking about non ABS application of the rear brake for motorcycles....it's benefits and pitfalls. THE BODY OF RESEARCH suggests one should avoid the rear brake ALMOST always. Maybe this conversation should evolve into a discussion WHEN it makes sense to use a rear brake with WHAT type of bike under WHAT conditions with WHAT level of preexisting skills on the part of the rider.
The bottom line for me is that I know that extreme rear brake use tends to bring the motorcycle to a "less overall control" situation so, I avoid the thing. I'm 62 yrs old, have had 2 minor collisions in over 50 years of riding, owned over 60 motorcycles....I must be doing something right (probably my avoidance of the rear brake!).
Raydog

 

[suzuki4life]

OK the Cycle World write up is good, but ABS is an entirely different part of this braking discussion. Jam on the brakes and the system filters away your panic reaction and creates the "maximum impending skid" reaction with software/hydraulics. We are talking about non ABS application of the rear brake for motorcycles....it's benefits and pitfalls. THE BODY OF RESEARCH suggests one should avoid the rear brake ALMOST always. Maybe this conversation should evolve into a discussion WHEN it makes sense to use a rear brake with WHAT type of bike under WHAT conditions with WHAT level of preexisting skills on the part of the rider.
The bottom line for me is that I know that extreme rear brake use tends to bring the motorcycle to a "less overall control" situation so, I avoid the thing. I'm 62 yrs old, have had 2 minor collisions in over 50 years of riding, owned over 60 motorcycles....I must be doing something right (probably my avoidance of the rear brake!).
Raydog

but the factor causing the problem is the person operating the brakes....

ABS can not see sand coming and react...it reacts from actual slippage that is occurring as it occurs.

 

[raydog]

but the factor causing the problem is the person operating the brakes....

ABS can not see sand coming and react...it reacts from actual slippage that is occurring as it occurs.

Exactly, the person operating the brakes induces the crash, most times there would be no crash if the rear brake was not used and the operator had a deep and skillful relationship with his front braking system.
Look, this info isn't derived from one track school in Washington State, it's clear, agreed upon curriculum among riding experts around the globe. I have to go move furniture so I'll end my contribution with this......

High performance motorcyclists KNOW the very few times when rear brake use is appropriate, that's what we all should be clear about. A few minutes a month of regular maximum deceleration practice in a safe environment IS LIGHT YEARS superior to any rear brake use in an emergency stop.
Raydog

 

[Tufbusa]

Something I have learned over the years is, you can gather a hundred people into a classroom and no matter what the subject, you will never get through to them all. There are always a few that simply have no desire to listen to any oposing point of view if it differs from their own!

It's like the guy who rides without a helmet. 5000 motorcycle deaths a year in the US but they are convinced it will never happen to them.

 

[bazooki]

I'm not even sure my Busa even has a rear brake as I don't recall ever using it!

When I was at race school last summer one of the first things the instructors told us was to forget about the rear brake. The only time we were permitted to touch the rear brake was if we ran off the track onto the grass in which case it was permitted in order to keep from dumping the front. I don't know that I have ever bought a set of rear brake pads and I have been riding for over 30 years. Hey, if somebody wants to hammer both brakes on in a panic stop good luck to them as they will not remain upright....lease:

 

[Ranger]

In a straight line panic stricken I need to stop now situation, I'm using my back brakes to help stop, proportionately of course. Even in just casual riding around town, I use my back brakes all the time, I like the smooth roll down stopping as opposed to the front end diving stops. Its all how you finesse the front and rear brakes together that makes the difference IMHO. No I'm not a new rider either.

 

[Tufbusa]

In a straight line panic stricken I need to stop now situation, I'm using my back brakes to help stop, proportionately of course. Even in just casual riding around town, I use my back brakes all the time, I like the smooth roll down stopping as opposed to the front end diving stops. Its all how you finesse the front and rear brakes together that makes the difference IMHO. No I'm not a new rider either.

If you are using your rear brake during hard braking, you are not using your front brake as effeciently as you should. If the front brake is doing it's job properly, the rear tire is so light it only takes a touch of the pedal to skid the rear. The end results being loss of control if the rear locks while the front is carrying the load.

Practice using the front brake hard enough to make the rear feel like it's doing a little dance. The rear tire will actually begin to loose traction and simply skip without applying any brake. When it happens you'll know exactly what it is. At that point, you have reached maximum braking. Any more pressure on the lever will cause the rear tire to become airborne and it will step out and try to pass you!

 

[jellyrug]

Between the war of the words I have a question. ???

How many riders here have to THINK when they brake?

With me it happens automatically, sub-conscious and if I brake traction front or back, the compensation also happens automatically before anything goes wrong.

 

[Ranger]

If you are using your rear brake during hard braking, you are not using your front brake as effeciently as you should. If the front brake is doing it's job properly, the rear tire is so light it only takes a touch of the pedal to skid the rear. The end results being loss of control if the rear locks while the front is carrying the load.

Practice using the front brake hard enough to make the rear feel like it's doing a little dance. The rear tire will actually begin to loose traction and simply skip without applying any brake. When it happens you'll know exactly what it is. At that point, you have reached maximum braking. Any more pressure on the lever will cause the rear tire to become airborne and it will step out and try to pass you!

That actually makes perfect sense to me now that you esplain it that way. I think I have always used the front brake initially, then slowly apply the back brake and the bike slows down considerably faster it fseems. Mind you Im talking straight line stopping. Seems like many inexperience riders tend to grab a handful of front brake while in a curve or some sort of off camber maneuver and have the front end wash out from under them.

 

[dangerous dave]

using back brake in an emergency situation just makes things worse .Try to train yourself not to use it . If you are a proficent front braker there will be no weight on rear tire anyway.

 

[Tufbusa]

Ranger, you are absolutely right. Way to many guys try to brake hard in an emergency before allowing the front to load. The results being a locked and skidding tire.

You must give the front time to compress and load the tire so it has no chance to lock. It's actually transferring weight to the front of the bike while reducing the weight on the rear. Once the front is loaded, only then can you apply full braking to the front tire. Loading the front tire only takes a fraction of a second.

Ideally, you should leave just enough weight on the rear to keep the tire rolling so the bike stays in line. At this point you are doing 100% of the braking with the front and since there is no real weight on the rear, just the slightest of touch on the rear lever will lock the tire. A locked rear tire while the front is doing 100% of the work is a sure way to highside. When a highside occurs from this situation, it happens so quick you hardly have time to say "Oh Shetz"!

 

[GregBob]

there are 2 contact patches to control, focus all attention to one and you are at its mercy....so when you hit hot tar, gravel or whatever else...you lose ALL of your capacity at once...brilliant.

Cooool. Can I chime in?

Goody, it's gregbob posting more pictures of........gregbob!

Let's sing: We are the world, we are the children...

I agree with S4L (suzuki 4 life) when there's stuff on the road ya just don't want to slam the front stoppers 'cause you'll be on your butt instantly; rear brake only is probably best...with stuff on the road.

On the wing, front and rear brakes are best for max braking as long as you are straight up and down.

with the busa, my rear brake is like new after dozens of track days and a few thousand street miles.

On clean pavement (track or street) straight up and down hard braking can be modulated and is totally controllable with front brake only even with the rear coming off the ground.

trail braking in a turn with the front brake requires finesse and practice but really good riders tell me it's the only way to be really fast.

If you touch the rear brake in a corner...buckle up and enjoy the flight.

ps the reason i post pictures is because it takes tuf's dial up 2 1/2 hours to bring it up.

 

[b4thenite]

I use rear brake all the time during the low speed manuever. Don't tell me you use front break while your steering bar is turned in low speed. And while leaned on a corner in high speed, do you folks really use front brakes? Also, how do you control your wheelie without using the rear brakes? How about on freeways while "sharing" lanes? I find tapping on the rear brake gives me better control rather than reaching for the front.

Maybe in racing world, the rear brake is a bad thing, but in real life?
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