Almost lost it today!

[TruWrecks]

An that's the way the org should roll! Now go get some grease and the rear brake pins and enjoy that Busa!

 

[Kento-Moto]

Hey guys, we have had several complaints about this thread. Although there is some good info here for all of us about the original question. Remember the original question ... ? ??? It was buried under all of the mud slinging.


Couple of suggestions here ...

Can all learn to offer their opinion without insulting some one else? Try using expressions like " I've found from my experience that ... " or " I appreciate what your saying but I disagree ... " and name calling and insulting is childish.

2ndly Try not to be so thinned skin and take offense so easy.

Seems kinda basic but I think if you read your comments before you hit the "POST" Button you may find you want to edit 1st. ???

 

[suzuki4life]

Is it only "my opinion" that 1)front wheel brake emphasis is in the curriculum of Code, Pridmore and Schwantz schools? No it's fact.
2)is it my opinion that the Honda article doesn't discuss the original subject of this thread (Non ABS rear brake usage)? No, it's fact.
3)is it my opinion that a disproporionate number of motorcycle collisions are attributable to misuse of the rear brake (on non ABS motorcycles)in panic stop situations? No, according to Motorcycle Consumer News, that data is factual.
4)is it my opinion that California Superbike School did a rear brake use comparative study that revealed braking with an unloaded rear tire is a catastrophic practice? No, that would be a fact.

Now I find myself defending if I use facts or not....this is silly. Oh, BTW ABS really is great technology, but your Hayabusa doesn't have it so I would practice braking skills alot in it's absence.

I think you are missing my point....yes rear brake usage is discussed because from what you have already stated....rear brake= crash

The abs unit uses the rear brake...and no crash and this is regardless of where the abs is employed.

How does the motorcycle consumer news gather these facts when they very doubtfully witnessed any of the crashes, their facts or evidence? Their findings are based on opinions is how.

info to the CSS study please.

still seem like opinions to me.

 

[suzuki4life]

I'm extremely late on this thread....but my safety course teacher said to use your front brakes first , when you feel the weight transfer you then begin to apply the rear. I personally am a front braker and rarely use the rear just like most of those that have posted. After reading most of suzuki4life's posts, I agree that controlled braking is a must. But it was said in response to using front vs rear or both. Whether you use front only, rear only, or both you need to have controlled braking so you don't lock up...right suzuki4life? So because we choose to use our front, if we control it properly so she doesn't lock up everyone on here is right and happy...correct?

Before my Busa I had a Blackbird, and that had a linked braking system. (for those that don't know what that means....it's honda's way of helping out the braking issue.....when you apply the front brakes, the system lightly applied the rear as well...likewise if you applied just the rear). It's a cool invention, but sucked if you wanted to do a burnout

Anyway, I'm for controlled front braking, and I use the rear on emergency stops. I've gotten out of many situations with this style...and living in a Metropolis like this Washington DC area, situations consistently present themselves. I'm not a pro by far, but certainly an experienced city rider.

blackbirds and vtx1800's all had linking brakes....not abs but mechanics were somewhat similar in logic....abs is far more advanced.

two problems with front only braking...

#1...you slam on your front brakes, you upset your weight distribution...you forcefully shift it forward and unlevel its base. (go try riding a unicycle and you will understand....that is essentially what you are doing when you "force" your rear tire to lift or "unload".)

#2. If you are focusing on front only braking what is your fall back when it washes out? If you hit tar, leaves, debris of any kind? If you are applying your rear brake even slightly, you will react and use it as the back up it is intended to be. Once your front tire slides, pressure WILL be exerted on the rear.

As stated before...if you live in the north eastern states the odds are you will experience tar and chip, slurry or gravel....front braking will result in immediate highside because your front wheel will lock and skid.

 

[raydog]

Suz4Life, expert riders don't "slam on their front brake" they apply it with modulation and increasing intensity. Expert riders have a relationship with their motorcycle that includes the ability to decelerate on a par with even supercars from high speed. Expert riders don't create a "wash out" situation, they are clear about both their and their bike's braking ability, track or street. Expert riders NEVER induce front wheel slide and if the front wheel slides under intense braking on a motorcycle, the rear brake is even more irrevelant to slowing down, it will only promote the imbalance prior to the crash.
If anyone that reads this thread isn't sure about what it takes to induce a "front wheel skid" PLEASE take a track type riding school class, it will take you to new levels! Millions of miles of great riding occurs in this world by many capable riders WITH NEVER A HINT OF A FRONT WHEEL SLIDE for their entire riding lives.










To all the capable veteran riders....happy motorcycling! This subject is too important to allow misinformation to be treated as a legitimate choice. I think I've said everything I can about what I know to be the state of the art mindset on braking so I'm going to other threads now.
Take care, Doyle

 

[TonyMastodon]

slamming on the front brake:
obviously you dont slam on it. this is what tufbusa was talking about..its a skill on its own. if you can master braking, you will know the limits and you will know what is expected to stop in the right amount of time.

but what do i know? Im new at this

 

[semi]

Can we close this thread already. It's been beat like a dead horse for more than two days now!

this is a good thread in my opinion on several fronts:

1) it is presenting two different points of view about a very important aspect of motorcycling
2) it is giving us all a chance to improve our skills at holding a conversation without attacking one another

hopefully, everyone continues to ask questions and give their opinions in an orderly manner and there shouldn't be any more issues if we just continue to close threads every time a debate goes wrong, no one learns anything about how to respect each other...instead, i would rather give infractions to those who don't follow the rules, ban those who continue to disregard the warnings, and end up with a better forum

 

[suzuki4life]

slamming on the front brake:
obviously you dont slam on it. this is what tufbusa was talking about..its a skill on its own. if you can master braking, you will know the limits and you will know what is expected to stop in the right amount of time.

but what do i know? Im new at this

if you apply a brake on ANY vehicle to the point you upset the load...you slammed on the brake...

If you are lifting the rear wheel on the street(off the ground or near levels)...you are applying your brake in an abrupt manner and causing the weight to be upset. (ie: slamming on the brakes)

 

[TonyMastodon]

this is a good thread in my opinion on several fronts:

1) it is presenting two different points of view about a very important aspect of motorcycling
2) it is giving us all a chance to improve our skills at holding a conversation without attacking one another

hopefully, everyone continues to ask questions and give their opinions in an orderly manner and there shouldn't be any more issues if we just continue to close threads every time a debate goes wrong, no one learns anything about how to respect each other...instead, i would rather give infractions to those who don't follow the rules, ban those who continue to disregard the warnings, and end up with a better forum

i agree!!! it actually changed how i ride... its great for us new riders.

 

[Kento-Moto]

In Oct 07 I hit a deer or it hit me... ??? In May 2008 I came upon a Gigantic Deer ( Really, looked like an elk ) I was target fixated and at about 70 mph I grabed as much front as I dare and locked up the rear... I got completely side ways, the released the rear brake. The bike straightened up but I went into a pretty strong head shake. Somehow I regained control and missed the deer by inches. I now am very cautious about the rear brake.

 

[suzuki4life]

In Oct 07 I hit a deer or it hit me... ??? In May 2008 I came upon a Gigantic Deer ( Really, looked like an elk ) I was target fixated and at about 70 mph I grabed as much front as I dare and locked up the rear... I got completely side ways, the released the rear brake. The bike straightened up but I went into a pretty strong head shake. Somehow I regained control and missed the deer by inches. I now am very cautious about the rear brake.

why did you lock the rear? I am betting because you paniced....correct?

 

[KFORCE1]

i was always taught to use both the front and the rear together, and its worked great for me.

Me too??? That's what they taught us at the MSF. Reasoning that a gentle squeeze on both reduce your stopping distant. I had an emergency brake situation yesterday and I applied both. I always use just a light touch on the rear but on this incident I almost locked the rear wheel. Read my experience here: https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/gene...13674-newbie-experience-2000-miles-later.html

 

[raydog]

Semi, I think your philosophy hits the mark.
Suz4Life, we can establish what constitutes "an expert rider" by agreeing on criteria for selection but, once again, to me it sounds like you are avoiding what's absolutely gospel truth by changing the subject (ie different on East Coast, fact vrs opinion, Honda ABS article, "slamming on the front brake", etc).
No posters on this thread will come out "the winner of the thread", this is simply about gleaning all the experience from others, the research, trial and error, synthesizing fact with expert opinions....we can all learn how to be better operators of our hi-performance machines.
Everyone has permission to use their rear brake as much as they want, but when we are humble and a student of this stuff, improvement flows in and it becomes obvious that, worldwide, capable riders know that the rear brake can hurt more than it can help in high velocity stops. Under controled conditions, would using BOTH brakes bring you down from 60-0 in less distance? I guess so, I'm not really sure, many experts say no. The point is, the liabilities you induce in a panic stop by using the rear brake DO NOT OUTWEIGH THE POTENTIAL CONTROL ISSUES YOU INTRODUCE BY IT"S USE.
Use the rear brake for parades, parking lots, controlling wheelies, whatever....just know how deadly it is when you depend on it AT ALL coming down from real speed. I don't know how to be any clearer than that. Doyle

 

[TruWrecks]

BTW...Slamming the brakes is not an option for anyone. Practice and being familiar with your motorcycle(s) and their capabilities is crucial to any rider. Knowing and practicing emergency manuvours on your motorcycle is how you discover the limits that you can apply on the street or track. A "panic stop" by me may be very different to Kento (just cause I can pick on you in a friendly way). I know and practice emergengy stops and line changes often. "Slamming on the brakes" in my case would be a progressively harder squeeze on the front brake lever, while Kento might lock up the rear tire. Different riding experiance has taught us both different techniques and skills. Not really right, or wrong, but one could be a much better sollution to the current issue.

One thing I will NOT do, is ride with 'shortie' levers, ever! I like the feedback and ability to more carefully modulate the brakes with full length levers. Long levers have served me very well in some really nasty situations. I have ridden across tar, gravel, mud, sand, dirt, squirrel, crow, dear blood and water on the road, and I have crashed once do to my own mistake. I went too fast into a blind corner, and when I needed to make a correction I couldn't. I used up all 10 of my slices of pizza in the corner. I needed at least one more slice to correct, and it wasn't there.

No I ride more aware, and with more skill than before.

If you're talking straight line braking only, locking up the rear may not help. It doesn't mean disaster either. The disaster comes if the bike is not going straight. The rear can wash out and low or high-side. Using the rear brake in a corner, without full knowledge of the consequences of good or bad, is a very bad choice. Good throttle and front brake control is your best bet to survive on both street and track.

I have both a bike with ABS (2008 FJR) and without (2008 Busa). I know how to stop both bikes in a very short time, and in whatever conditions I may find because I practice on them both. ABS is better if you can't read the feedback from the tires and road very well, but it is not the end-all to braking solutions. I would like to put an ABS system on the Busa to see if my lap times come down, but I doubt I will see a major difference.

 

[suzuki4life]

Semi, I think your philosophy hits the mark.
Suz4Life, we can establish what constitutes "an expert rider" by agreeing on criteria for selection but, once again, to me it sounds like you are avoiding what's absolutely gospel truth by changing the subject (ie different on East Coast, fact vrs opinion, Honda ABS article, "slamming on the front brake", etc).
No posters on this thread will come out "the winner of the thread", this is simply about gleaning all the experience from others, the research, trial and error, synthesizing fact with expert opinions....we can all learn how to be better operators of our hi-performance machines.
Everyone has permission to use their rear brake as much as they want, but when we are humble and a student of this stuff, improvement flows in and it becomes obvious that, worldwide, capable riders know that the rear brake can hurt more than it can help in high velocity stops. Under controled conditions, would using BOTH brakes bring you down from 60-0 in less distance? I guess so, I'm not really sure, many experts say no. The point is, the liabilities you induce in a panic stop by using the rear brake DO NOT OUTWEIGH THE POTENTIAL CONTROL ISSUES YOU INTRODUCE BY IT"S USE.
Use the rear brake for parades, parking lots, controlling wheelies, whatever....just know how deadly it is when you depend on it AT ALL coming down from real speed. I don't know how to be any clearer than that. Doyle

I have yet to see anyone post a fact supporting the "brake only using the front brake " theory other than a bunch of opinions. So no example of the "gospel truth" has been shown to support your feelings, just opinions.

East vs west...I am trying to understand and maybe guess that hazards may exist on the east coast because of our weather and how we handle it and care for our roads which may not exist on the west coast.

If you run into a freshly tar and chipped road or a road with slurry on it.....you will not touch your front brake. You are basically riding on an asphalt road covered with hot oil and if you are lucky, stones. Its is pretty common practice here. The chances are extremely high of washing out your front end in these conditions. There is not much warning either, you will round a corner and a sign will be posted and maybe 10-20 feet notice to slow down, maybe. You will use both brakes to bleed off speed as fast as you can, you will then ride the rear brake until stopped(so you can turn around) or until you are at a comfortable pace. Slurry is worse than tar and chip because it does not use stones. and if you are thinking "panic stop" that may not be an option...you might have traffic behind you.

Fun hazards like these are why controlling your braking is so important.


Anyone who disputes this type of control should go practice low speed riding (feet up not down) and use only their front brake on very loose gravel parking lot or road.

 

[suzuki4life]

I have both a bike with ABS (2008 FJR) and without (2008 Busa). I know how to stop both bikes in a very short time, and in whatever conditions I may find because I practice on them both. ABS is better if you can't read the feedback from the tires and road very well, but it is not the end-all to braking solutions. I would like to put an ABS system on the Busa to see if my lap times come down, but I doubt I will see a major difference.

if the stopping distance it lessened with abs over manual input, then the manual input procedure is inferior...

why would anyone want to use an inferior procedure?

 

[raydog]

I have an OPINION, I think I'll abandon this thread and go riding for 6 days with my front brake using brothers and sisters in the mountains. My head hurts. Raydog

 

[Tufbusa]

I have an OPINION, I think I'll abandon this thread and go riding for 6 days with my front brake using brothers and sisters in the mountains. My head hurts. Raydog

You my friend, will not win a debate on this thread. It's been turned into an argument for the sole purpose of arguing. Good judgment and common sense was thrown out the window long ago. However, I do believe that most people reading your posts have made their decisions on proper use of the rear brake.

I have received numerous PMs and a few phone calls from people who contributed to this thread as well as some who just sat back paying attention. All of whom were grateful for my input. Many said they had learned much. Some said I had the patients of a saint.

You and I are two of many who understand the concept. Proper braking is indeed a learned skill. An art, as some would say. As this thread has shown, there are some who have a ways to go. Hopefully they will survive the pitfalls of poor brake use during the learning curve.

Your words of wisdom in this thread did not go un-noticed my friend.

 

[memorex]

yeah use the rear ONLY after you have squeezed the front.. or in dirt or gravel.

Yeah what they have been saying. That guy saturday(the post I made)would have stopped ok if he hit the front brake first and lightly applied the rear.


https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/random-thoughts/113634-funny-thing-happened-yesterday.html

 

[memorex]

Even when just going for rear brake your bike is going to nose dive and take weight off the rear tire giving it very little stopping power. But there is a time a place for it. Like on slipery surfaces. Even then you shouldn't be trying to brake any land speed records under these conditions.