Almost lost it today!

[raydog]

No, not just "the racing world"! I earlier stated there were some circumstances where the rear brake use is fine. Examples are....when you want to adjust your proximity to other bikes or cars with slight application,or on a straight street where you are coming casually up to a red light, and other non urgent similar situations (including your low speed parking lot type situation).
If I misjudge a power wheelie and get too high, rolling off the throttle is what I'd do but I think it would be OK to use the rear brake to help bring you back down...just a tap though, otherwise you'll be slamming down which is the first step of a potential tankslapper.
"Leaned into a corner at high speed" why would you use ANY brake? The issues of rear brake use don't just apply to "the racing world", they apply to ALL of tarmac surfaced motorcycling.
Raydog

 

[TonyMastodon]

controlled braking should be used at any time brakes are applied on any vehicles...

controlled braking is the slowing of a vehicle to a stop...without locking the wheel.

Once you lock the wheel, you lost control of the brake.

Like I said...you want proof...read Cycle world's write up on the abs system by honda.

you said once you lock the wheel...so why not just stay off the rear brake and eliminate the possibility of locking up the rear???

Im not a racer...ive never done a track day.... but i think im gonna trust the instructors on this one.... seeing how tufbusa has crashed a few and learned from his mistakes. I think im gonna learn from them as well and avoid my mistakes.

Thanks for this great thread. I will lay off the rear brake a lot more. Ive always been told use both. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[suzuki4life]

Exactly, the person operating the brakes induces the crash, most times there would be no crash if the rear brake was not used and the operator had a deep and skillful relationship with his front braking system.
Look, this info isn't derived from one track school in Washington State, it's clear, agreed upon curriculum among riding experts around the globe. I have to go move furniture so I'll end my contribution with this......

High performance motorcyclists KNOW the very few times when rear brake use is appropriate, that's what we all should be clear about. A few minutes a month of regular maximum deceleration practice in a safe environment IS LIGHT YEARS superior to any rear brake use in an emergency stop.
Raydog

problem...logically speaking if what you are saying is true, then when the abs applied the rear brakes, you would crash.

Obviously this is not the result therefore the concept that the rear brake being applied causes the crash or a lightened rear wheel caused the crash is untrue.

Like I said, physics is against you. If you can replace the human operator with a computer and all is fine then the root cause is operator error...not machine...not a lightened rear tire.

and for reference, professional riders were used in the cycle world test and beaten by the computer thus their skill was subpar to a machine thus imperfect. Since the machine is as close as we have to a "perfect example" it becomes base under scientific principle.

 

[suzuki4life]

you said once you lock the wheel...so why not just stay off the rear brake and eliminate the possibility of locking up the rear???

you realize you can lock a front tire also right?

So by your logic why use either brake?

if your mindset is that one way is the answer regardless of facts presented then the facts and efforts made to gather those facts are lost to you.

But in reality, cars and bikes are getting abs because the machine can react to the inputs better than most riders can...AND has been proven to operate more effectively than even pro riders...

so with this said...would you want your 2015 abs equipped busa to have the rear brakes disabled because some guys on the internet said so, or would you listen to Suzuki who tested it and proved it could out brake their pro riders 99.95% of the time?

 

[suzuki4life]

Cooool. Can I chime in?

Goody, it's gregbob posting more pictures of........gregbob!

Let's sing: We are the world, we are the children...

I agree with S4L (suzuki 4 life) when there's stuff on the road ya just don't want to slam the front stoppers 'cause you'll be on your butt instantly; rear brake only is probably best...with stuff on the road.

On the wing, front and rear brakes are best for max braking as long as you are straight up and down.

with the busa, my rear brake is like new after dozens of track days and a few thousand street miles.

On clean pavement (track or street) straight up and down hard braking can be modulated and is totally controllable with front brake only even with the rear coming off the ground.

trail braking in a turn with the front brake requires finesse and practice but really good riders tell me it's the only way to be really fast.

If you touch the rear brake in a corner...buckle up and enjoy the flight.

ps the reason i post pictures is because it takes tuf's dial up 2 1/2 hours to bring it up.

problem is...the types of turns (or speeds in those turns) that would require or equate to the results you have listed...should be kept on race tracks IMHO....

There are normally many factors to take in on the street that the implied activity should be kept in "controlled environments" for everyone's own safety.


You go into a blind turn hot enough to knee drag...you are charging into a possibly stopped car...a deer...a kid on the road...


we had local groups who did this for years using spotters with radios.(I believe they use blue tooth and phones now)...but they felt they were doing it as safely as possible using a scout and a chase rider...


people still crash...a few died...and a few are crippled..this stuff is bad news...could've been someone's kid, wife, parent etc...you affected...

keep track riding on tracks and use track skills....on the street use street skills.

 

[raydog]

I am so done with this thread, enjoy the hell out of your rear brake usage, I just hope most people that read this thread understand that any tire that is unloaded during deceleration (actually called negative acceleration) becomes a tire that will skid with only ounces of pressure on the rear brake lever....a reality that will serve as step one of your accident. IF YOU HAVE ABS, under those conditions, it will barely function on the rear wheel while exercising over 90% braking bias to the front wheel. If you don't get that, then please don't ride very fast.
Happy motorcycling to all. Raydog

 

[TonyMastodon]

you realize you can lock a front tire also right?

So by your logic why use either brake?

if your mindset is that one way is the answer regardless of facts presented then the facts and efforts made to gather those facts are lost to you.

But in reality, cars and bikes are getting abs because the machine can react to the inputs better than most riders can...AND has been proven to operate more effectively than even pro riders...

so with this said...would you want your 2015 abs equipped busa to have the rear brakes disabled because some guys on the internet said so, or would you listen to Suzuki who tested it and proved it could out brake their pro riders 99.95% of the time?

I use the rear brake around town when im coming up to a light...but on the freeway or harder braking, ill stick to the front...

and really? you can lock the fronts??

 

[b4thenite]

Ray, I don't understand your frusturation. As you mentioned this is an issue lives are depend on. I just don't want to, or anybody that matter thinking about and doubting instead of "doing" it.

Isn't it true that it's morte matter of how you use brakes, instead of which brakes? I see the point that if you do not use rear brakes ayt all, you eliminate the chance of rear locking in emergency situation. But this argument also leads the readers to believe that not using rear brake is a very good thing. And by doing this, I believe such information is doing a disservice to the two wheel community.

So. Again, I believe proper discussion on braking should contain more of "how to" rather than "which brakes".
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[SKnight]

Guys with this attitude show up all the time and they often end up on their head. I too was one of them until I learned the hard way. I totalled a brand new busa, only three months old (On the street by the way) and the cause was applying the rear brake at the wrong time.

Your bike doesn't care whether it's on the track or downtown, asphalt is asphalt and braking is braking. If the asphalt is clean and dry, the rear brake is of no use whatsoever. The most important skill you can learn for your own safety is how to use maximum braking effectively. Everyone should practice emergency braking on a regular basis. And if you are wise, you'll leave the rear brake to the skilled professionals who use it as a steering tool.

Because you don't know how or when to properly apply the brakes.

So long as the tire is on the ground it can help stop, it's not a switch, so if you try to max it out everytime it's going to lock and put you on your head as you say.

As part of my practice routine I modulate the rear to just short of lockup, I stop quicker than with the front alone. Everytime.

It's a matter of regular practice, doing different things and getting to intimately know your bike, how it reacts, what it will do when and under what conditions.

45K street and track miles, it's not put me on my head or anything else yet.

If you're locking the rear too quick or easy adjust your rear brake lever down some. That takes some of your leverage away and makes it harder to lock the rear along with easier to modulate pressure.

 

[Tufbusa]

For any of you who have doubts about the dangers of using the rear brake at the wrong time, let me share a little story with you that happened just a short distance from my house on I-5 two summers ago.

A 52 year old man and his wife from California was riding their two harleys in the left hand lane northbound with the wife in front and the husband in the rear. Traffic had unexpectedly slowed and at 70 mph the husband grabbed a hand full of front brake, stepped on the rear locking it up, the rear stepped out to the right and caught traction launching the husband like a torpedo. As luck would have it, a semi truck was along side and the man's head was rolled over by the wheels and left looking like a Papa Murphy's saugage with tomato sauce pizza. The trucker had no idea he had just killed a biker and was pulled over some fifteen miles ahead by the WSP and told of the event.

We know exactly what happened because the motorist (Who happened to be a biker) following in a vehicle watched the entire senerio unfold. Did the rear brake cause this death. Not at all. It was the rider's lack of experience that caused his death. He had no idea the rear brake could indeed end up causing his death. Had he been on ABS brakes would he still be alive? Possibly so, I have no idea as I have riden only one bike with ABS brakes. However, the facts are, not one busa rider has ABS brakes so Suzukimans wild senerios have little value here IMHO.

If anyone is interested in learning how to use the rear brake, Rich Oliver's Mystery School is a great place to learn. Rich will teach you exactly how to use the rear brake and when it should be used. You'll be on a 125cc dirt bike and you will crash so many times you'll think you've been a few rounds with Chuck Ladell in the UFC cage. By the end of the second day, you'll be well schooled on the uses of the rear brake. You will certainly have more respect for the rear brake.

 

[GregBob]

This is a great thread!

It's great to see people discussing something as important as braking skills vs. more and more horsepower.

ABS- It seems the abs computer can sense a loss of rear wheel grip under braking and make instant and tiny adjustments to maximize braking and safety. Maybe humans, more often than not, are unable to sense a problem while using the rear brake, until it's too late.

Rear brake is great for low speed turns and wheelie control...good point.

But if you are cornering at over, say 25-30 mph, high sides happen in an instant and using rear brake without abs might be asking for trouble.

 

[1styearbusa]

I really appreciate this thread , my friends and I have had this discussion a few times . It's nice to hear experienced opinions on this subject from both people with tons of track experience and from some people with tons of street experience .

I have not had an chance to get to a track day . :-(
But it's on my list ... someday .
I have about 50k miles combined street experience on sportbikes (the most recent 4k on a 'Busa)

One situation I like using the rear brake is to gently shave a few mph to adjust speed just prior to , or early in a long corner . I like how it upsets the chassis less than the front brake . This is especially true when 2up . And this is not at hot-dogging knee-dragging speed . Just brisk enjoyable street pace .

In panic stops I use 100% front brake for the first second or two then gently add rear brake . Never expecting more than 5% of my overall braking to come from there .

Having read this thread (mental blocking all the personal bickering) has adjusted my opinion a bit . I just 2 days ago installed new rear pads ... I am going to try make them last ... a LONG time .

Thanks to all who have shared

 

[Jake918]

For what its whorth; I have had a few panic driven situations when you have hardly NO time to react (in-your-face car pull-outs, or even deer), and with a friends advice, used against my own instincs, I apply even pressure to both front and rear brakes for max/safe stopping times... I use to look at the rear brake as just a speed-ajuster, or an easy way to hold tight at a red light, but to my surprise, it works in extreme conditions, just try not to panic,and always have an emergency escape route mapped out in your head at ALL times, for anything to happen. even when you feel the most comfortablest.

 

[raydog]

Ray, I don't understand your frusturation. As you mentioned this is an issue lives are depend on. I just don't want to, or anybody that matter thinking about and doubting instead of "doing" it.

Isn't it true that it's morte matter of how you use brakes, instead of which brakes? I see the point that if you do not use rear brakes ayt all, you eliminate the chance of rear locking in emergency situation. But this argument also leads the readers to believe that not using rear brake is a very good thing. And by doing this, I believe such information is doing a disservice to the two wheel community.

So. Again, I believe proper discussion on braking should contain more of "how to" rather than "which brakes".
Posted via Mobile Device

OK, I'll respond to this. I find it fastinating that there is an argument/point of view that literally flies in the face of common knowledge. YES there are times when it's OK to use the rear brake! Nobody is saying any different. High performance riders (I assume we all strive for that title) use the rear brake ONLY for specific and occasional purposes. The other day at Thunderhill, I was experimenting with straightaway speed....when to shut down, brake and enter turn one. A couple times I came in too hot so the first AUTOMATIC reflex I performed was...deep thought about front brake use, extending the straight by leaving my bike totally vertical farther than my typical laps(scrubbing off speed) and being in the proper place on the track. The result was, I learned to increase my entry speed AND the perfect braking marker to begin the set up/cornering process at. At any time in this experience if I had used my rear brake, I would have crashed, pure and simple. IF MY AUTOMATIC REFLEX WAS TO APPLY THE REAR BRAKE, I WOULD HAVE CRASHED.
This isn't just a point of view fostered by a few ORG members, it is a black and white reality of proper technique....across the planet! I'm not a stubborn person, and I love debate, but this is an absolute no brainer and to argue that rear brake use "will help you slow down sooner" is too simplistic and avoids the real complexities of skilled riding. Doyle

 

[TruWrecks]

In answer to the original question, you might want to take the rear caliper off and put a little lithium greese on the smooth sections of the bolt shafts. That will let it move easier when you let off the rear brake.

 

[NIGHTFLIGHT]

I know what a slurppy is

 

[suzuki4life]

Stop this insanity! I am very clear about the difference between fact and opinion. Further, opinion can be placed on a continium that illustrates pure unsupported belief....all the way across to scientifically based, expert opinion.
Suz4Life, I have been very respectful in this thread....only to be told I only offer opinion?
I actually teach a class that disects fact from opinion....and that includes devices people use to win an argument, for example, attacking the style of the opposing viewpoint!
I must say two things now,

this thread has valuable info in it, I hope some readers extract that info.
I've read the Honda ABS article and nobody argues about the benefits of ABS...
but it has nothing to do with a non ABS bike unloading it's rear wheel CONCURRENT with the operator using the rear brake to add additional stopping power! That's a dead end street.
Fact or opinion? I haven't offered one opinion in this strand that isn't 1)substantiated in Physics 2)the product of years of trial and error on the subject.
Respectfully, Doyle

yes you are offering only opinions...

And yes abs controls braking which (braking) also would cause a rear tire to "unload"

therefore if abs can control the brakes in a manner that causes a vehicle to stop in a shorter distance, the operator controlled procedure is proven inferior. If the basic mechanics of the system stay the same, then procedure becomes a plausible possibility for the inferior action.

and yes abs versus operator capability has everything to do with which can stop first thus the proper and most efficient braking method.

(same reason honda tests it)

 

[raydog]

yes you are offering only opinions...

And yes abs controls braking which (braking) also would cause a rear tire to "unload"

therefore if abs can control the brakes in a manner that causes a vehicle to stop in a shorter distance, the operator controlled procedure is proven inferior. If the basic mechanics of the system stay the same, then procedure becomes a plausible possibility for the inferior action.

and yes abs versus operator capability has everything to do with which can stop first thus the proper and most efficient braking method.

(same reason honda tests it)

Is it only "my opinion" that 1)front wheel brake emphasis is in the curriculum of Code, Pridmore and Schwantz schools? No it's fact.
2)is it my opinion that the Honda article doesn't discuss the original subject of this thread (Non ABS rear brake usage)? No, it's fact.
3)is it my opinion that a disproporionate number of motorcycle collisions are attributable to misuse of the rear brake (on non ABS motorcycles)in panic stop situations? No, according to Motorcycle Consumer News, that data is factual.
4)is it my opinion that California Superbike School did a rear brake use comparative study that revealed braking with an unloaded rear tire is a catastrophic practice? No, that would be a fact.

Now I find myself defending if I use facts or not....this is silly. Oh, BTW ABS really is great technology, but your Hayabusa doesn't have it so I would practice braking skills alot in it's absence.

 

[Seducer]

I'm extremely late on this thread....but my safety course teacher said to use your front brakes first , when you feel the weight transfer you then begin to apply the rear. I personally am a front braker and rarely use the rear just like most of those that have posted. After reading most of suzuki4life's posts, I agree that controlled braking is a must. But it was said in response to using front vs rear or both. Whether you use front only, rear only, or both you need to have controlled braking so you don't lock up...right suzuki4life? So because we choose to use our front, if we control it properly so she doesn't lock up everyone on here is right and happy...correct?

Before my Busa I had a Blackbird, and that had a linked braking system. (for those that don't know what that means....it's honda's way of helping out the braking issue.....when you apply the front brakes, the system lightly applied the rear as well...likewise if you applied just the rear). It's a cool invention, but sucked if you wanted to do a burnout

Anyway, I'm for controlled front braking, and I use the rear on emergency stops. I've gotten out of many situations with this style...and living in a Metropolis like this Washington DC area, situations consistently present themselves. I'm not a pro by far, but certainly an experienced city rider.

 

[chowda633]

Wow being the starter of the thread did not know it would blow up like this! On a serious note I have learned more about braking that I did in the MSF course I took and more than a year and half of riding!

They pushed using both brakes so hard in the msf course and not using the front brake all the time so hard I think it scared most riders from using it! There came a time when I crashed and my back brake was damaged on my cbr so I could not use it and I rode with out if for months. That made me not fear the the front brake and I tend to use the front more than the back most of the time. But always try to use "both" when in a emergency situation.

After reading this awesome thread I have 100x more faith in my front brake now and will continue to use it as prescribed. Inadvertently you guys may have saved me from another future crash that could have been more serious than the others!

It does strike me odd when the rear tire was removed to have it changed that the back brakes where non existent and the fronts where hardly used. Guess it backs up the story of the dealer being the previous owner being a old rider (no offense) lol.