Brakes Fading

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Grab bars for the tank??? Never heard of that...
Only grab bar i know of is on the rear side which is quite uncomfortable holding on to....

Okay... Figured from a previous thread we spoked about Nevada. Should have asked though but will have it changed on the quote... Lol maybe they quote you on depending which mood they are in
If FEDEX is that expensive i do not even want to know what DHL would quote a person. I just know they are much, much more expensive than FEDEX. So won't even bother with them.

There are also passenger seat belts. Belts that connect both riders together, mostly used for children but anyone can use them. There are several kinds of pillion tank grab bars. Here’s one. She reaches around and holds onto something solid, upon hard braking (and) hard acceleration.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5337943218&icep_item=262531250908

 

[Tian]

There are also passenger seat belts. Belts that connect both riders together, mostly used for children but anyone can use them. There are several kinds of pillion tank grab bars. Here’s one. She reaches around and holds onto something solid, upon hard braking (and) hard acceleration.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5337943218&icep_item=262531250908

I like.... Will do some more research on the variety of them and perhaps get one.... Thanks for that bro!

 

[Mythos]

also heard people say to use front mostly. So i use rear to brake most speed and then front for final stopping...

I think a lot of us develop the habit of braking with the rear from riding bicycles. They are so light you can do an accidental stoppy pretty easily. The thing is that the rear will lighten up and loose traction on a motorcycle whether you brake with front only or rear or both. This is why you are not using your maximum braking power if you rely on the rear. I'm sure this is why they don't bother to put a strong brake on the rear wheel, it's not that effective anyway. There's no need for dual brakes and big calipers/rotors if it's going to float over the pavement barely making contact anyway. With your passenger, it seems you are negating the effect of lifting the rear but you still have that weak back brake to work with.

Also because the rear normally has less traction in braking, it WILL slide easier when you brake. A sliding rear tire is inviting a high side crash. The tire catches traction after sliding and throws the bike over to the direction it was sliding. This is why experienced road racers use front only or have a back brake for special use like wheelie control or trail braking or intentional drifting. Of course, a sliding front tire can also cause a high side not to mention it points the bike in the wrong direction. The front is less likely to slide though.

So, get used to braking with the front. It's safer and more effective. I use both effectively but I rely on the front and often think I should learn to stay off of the rear altogether.

also i am scared that if i use my front that same amound as rear that may be gone when i really need them.

If you're having the same problem with fade on the front, there is a mechanical or hydraulic problem or you need a brake upgrade to handle the demands you're putting on the brakes. The busa has rather crappy brakes. I think the stock Brembos are better but not all busas have them. I have pulled the front brake to the grip to emergency stop and it did lock with my 210 lbs rider weight. Pulling the lever to the grip is not something that should need to be done ever. A front brake should grab very hard with just a slight input to the lever.

What you are doing is actually backwards. You should be using the front as the main brake and use the rear if there should ever be a front failure.

Get used to using the front. Be familiar with rear only braking for situations where the pavement is slippery and you are going to brake carefully expecting a possible slide.

 

[Tian]

Quote 1 Reply- I understand what you are saying.... But i use the rear brake in such a way that i know it wont lock and slide.... If i catch something slippery it might slide. But i am not really worried about sliding as it was something i loved to do alot (with my previous bikes- not now any more so much cause since Ms Pillion is in my life i find it hard to afford tyres LOL!) and still do now from time to time just to keep the drift on handling it for incase it happens accidently.... Got a way to prevent the slide from throwing the bike over. :-)

Quote 2 Reply- I only am this hard on the rear brake when having my pillion on. But when i am alone on the bike my front brake also is my main brake i am using. I dont believe my front will fade-it never does fail more than that 25% i mentioned earlier in the thread no matter how aggresive i use it. But i will rather use the front brake to make an emergency brake for when there is no rear brake than using the rear brake for making a emergency stop for when there is no front brakes. (When passenger is on) Rear will never be able to safe my bud when front disappears.

But what i will do is i will start to use the front brake more with my pillion. If that makes her uncomfortable i will get that grab bar for her that CBX mentioned which should make it easier then. But yes i am comfortable with using front brake and also knows about the risk that i can slide if something slippery is in the way which i mislooked. Its just a mindset i will need to change now to remember my self that i need to use front more than rear when Ms Pillion is with. I remember at the begining i used to do that. But i feld the strength on her when braking which is why i switched mostly to rear. Just that that i need to change again.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

If you're having the same problem with fade on the front, there is a mechanical or hydraulic problem or you need a brake upgrade to handle the demands you're putting on the brakes.

Tian is burning up his front and rear brakes, exclusively when extreme drag racing between stoplights, on the street, and with a passenger. He never sees this problem otherwise. He has had this problem with two Hayabusas and has provided only good answers for performing robust maintenance and using high quality parts and materials. He has also tried waved disks and braided hoses.

Mythos in this specific case you are recommending additional brake upgrades so that he can eliminate the heat fade and continue on successfully drag racing between lights on the street with his girlfriend, and correctly using the front brake again when doing so?

Other suggestions that were provided for handling braking during this stoplight racing with the girlfriend onboard include better grab handles and seat belts.

If I were Elvis I am quite sure that my monitor would need replacement as I would have blown it into tiny pieces by now.

 

[Mythos]

Mythos in this specific case you are recommending additional brake upgrades so that he can eliminate the heat fade and continue on successfully drag racing between lights on the street with his girlfriend, and correctly using the front brake again when doing so?

Looking at the whole picture, I'd say just don't do the stoplight racing, at least not with a passenger. It's too risky, and they're going to crash sooner or later if not from brake failure, some other kind of accident.

If he's going to continue to do this on the street no matter what anybody tells him, YES. It appears he's outriding his stock brakes. Get the brake upgrade and the rider and passenger might survive long enough for the cops to put an end to the escapades. Misdemeanor or felony depending on the charge----either one is very serious as I mentioned earlier. The bike will get dropped on a flatbed and IDK what they will do with it. License suspended or revoked according to the charge. That's all better than crashing and somebody dies or gets injured severely.

I rarely carry a passenger and I've never had a grab rail but it seems that would cause her to sit more upright and flip off the back easier. I think she's safer leaning forward and holding onto you if you are goig to be accelerating fast.

 

[superfast437]

So to update from my side.... the day over tomorrow is bike working day! Got brakefluid. Will post a pic of the brakefluid tomorrow.

Really have a long list of todo's on that Busa! Lol.
From a seal replace to fitting new rear tyre and respraying nose fender etc etc etc

What kind of brake fluid?

 

[ali123]

Tian is a beast on this thing..... ure working that stock clutch to the limit also with both u guys on that thing.... drag racing light to light at WOT....... lol... Tian..... be careful...... ure gonna wind up in a wheelchair again........

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

What kind of brake fluid?

No tellin. He’s in Namibia Southern Africa.

 

[jellyrug]

No tellin. He’s in Namibia Southern Africa.

I grew up in Johannesburg SA. Different world to here and easier not to get into trouble with the POPO. I can still remember, no matter where or when, if there was another motorcycle or fast cager is sight, it was an automatic race every time. I fact, I can remember a few times where a LEO pulled in next to me on a bike and challenged me to a race.

 

[Mythos]

I can remember a few times where a LEO pulled in next to me on a bike and challenged me to a race.

That's awesome! I doubt it's happening much anymore with all the video cameras being carried on bikes these days. I've seen a couple cop race videos. I'd think any cop who values his job would refrain from indulging in that while driving a police vehicle.

 

[Tian]

What kind of brake fluid?

Got Ferodo DOT 5.1 plus.... So we took it back as ive learned here dot 5 is not working on bike systems... just got castrol mineral brakefluid....
Which is why i decided not to post a pic cause it turned up not to have been something special...

 

[Tian]

Looking at the whole picture, I'd say just don't do the stoplight racing, at least not with a passenger. It's too risky, and they're going to crash sooner or later if not from brake failure, some other kind of accident.

If he's going to continue to do this on the street no matter what anybody tells him, YES. It appears he's outriding his stock brakes. Get the brake upgrade and the rider and passenger might survive long enough for the cops to put an end to the escapades. Misdemeanor or felony depending on the charge----either one is very serious as I mentioned earlier. The bike will get dropped on a flatbed and IDK what they will do with it. License suspended or revoked according to the charge. That's all better than crashing and somebody dies or gets injured severely.

I rarely carry a passenger and I've never had a grab rail but it seems that would cause her to sit more upright and flip off the back easier. I think she's safer leaning forward and holding onto you if you are goig to be accelerating fast.

For me looking at this hole thread i learned that:

I am over using my rear brake way to much when doing more harder riding
My brake pads i am using are poor quality and not quite fit for my riding style

So what im gonna change is:
Point 1-I will see what of the brake pads mentioned in this thread can be special ordered-i am sure i can get a hold of some of those pads somewhere here without paying and arm and a leg to get it here via FEDEX or so, if i cant get at all i will work something out to get it here.

Point 2- i already started switching over to use mainly front brake with or without pillion. So not going to abuse rear brake anymore.

Point 3- I will start saving up for braded hoses, rotor upgrades and calliper upgrades (i understand i can upgrade to brembo but not to abs brembo, or did i misunderstood something there?)
........................................................................
About the racing:

I think the racing is sounding way worst than what it is.
I dont race always when we are riding. It happens maybe once every 2 to 3 months that we would go for a night ride picking up a race or 2 randomly or go out to our spicific roads with another bike or 2 and just play a bit and race abit and having fun... Those roads been my city race track since 2009/2010... its then when the brakes did what it did. But each other day when we ride we just ride normally. Pulling the throttle here and there but thats that. No extreme accelaration or braking.

We did discuss the grab bar but she said the front braking is not a problem for her. Guess it just was feeling for me it was more comfy using more rear than front when pillioning.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tian]

I grew up in Johannesburg SA. Different world to here and easier not to get into trouble with the POPO. I can still remember, no matter where or when, if there was another motorcycle or fast cager is sight, it was an automatic race every time. I fact, I can remember a few times where a LEO pulled in next to me on a bike and challenged me to a race.

Here it is still like that.
Here to get in trouble for street racing is almost impossible... you would really need to cause some big things to get in trouble. In my almost 10 years of street racing a freind and i was pulled over once. But outran them in a eye wink.

Causing trouble here is meaning you should cause an accident or hit a pedestrian or something like that. Then your vehicle will be impounded and you will loose your license for about 5 years. Gotta start from scratch then getting learners&license etc etc. With that you will get a penalty and if not paid jail time. But just for normal high speed racing if at night nothing can happen as there is no way it can be proven its you. Day time if you hit a speed trap 85% of the time you will get set of with a warning or a bribe... other times you will get a penalty fee with 6 months time to pay it.

 

[Tian]

So to update again....
We bled the brakes... i noticed a hell of a lot of tiny airbubbles bleeding out with the rear brake fluid... front bleeded out quite clear and clutch too.

So the main reason for rear fading was the air in the system with the abusing ofcourse, yes? The line appears to be quite solid no sign of air that can enter there.

But i will start saving up for upgrades...

Thanks to all of you posted your advise and thoughts on this thread. I have learned alot!

 

[Mythos]

Point 3- I will start saving up for braded hoses, rotor upgrades and calliper upgrades (i understand i can upgrade to brembo but not to abs brembo, or did i misunderstood something there?)

I hate to brake it to you (har-har!!! get it, BRAKE???) but if you want a real improvement in braking, the thing that will make the biggest difference is a high performance master cylinder like Brembo. The stock MC probably has a bore that does not permit enough pressure to build. It's designed for linear braking--the harder you pull the more power to the brakes. That might sound good. The linear power delivery of the busa engine is wonderful for predictable acceleration but linear brakes are no good for racing or anything IMO. I do not even like them for normal commuting. Linear brakes are for people who have no clue at all about using brakes and are likely to over-brake in normal situations where very little brake power is needed. What you want is something that gives instant bite as soon as you touch the lever and will lock if you pull just a bit harder. YES--you want touchy brakes. Sounds wrong but it is right. You need to learn how to touch them and then you have very predictable brake power you don't need to search for pulling on the lever. Those are race brakes and AFAIC, the best brakes for all applications.

I do not think you will get that from pads or SS lines. It's been tried. The busa has a sucky MC and you need a Brembo radial MC with adjustable bore/stroke . There are different models. I can't tell you which is best but many people here will know. The ZX-14 MC is also very good but I do not like the linkage to the lever as much as Suzuki's design--it works though. You could pick up a used ZX-14 MC on Ebay.

I have an Accosato radial MC. Cheaper alternative to Brembo. Still have not tried it so I can't tell you how much better it is than stock.

Causing trouble here is meaning you should cause an accident or hit a pedestrian or something like that. Then your vehicle will be impounded and you will loose your license for about 5 years. Gotta start from scratch then getting learners&license etc etc. With that you will get a penalty and if not paid jail time. But just for normal high speed racing if at night nothing can happen as there is no way it can be proven its you. Day time if you hit a speed trap 85% of the time you will get set of with a warning or a bribe... other times you will get a penalty fee with 6 months time to pay it.

I wish we had that here. I wouldn't dare try to bribe one of our cops. If it was that easy, I'd just carry a thou in my pocket all the time and go raise hell until I got caught. Get busted for 100 mph+ here and it's going to cost you a lot more than a thousand bucks.

We bled the brakes... i noticed a hell of a lot of tiny airbubbles bleeding out with the rear brake fluid... front bleeded out quite clear and clutch too.

If these are tiny teeny bubbles like pin points and they don't go away, that is air that gets sucked past the threads on the bleeder while you have it loose and are expressing fluid. Those tiny bubbles are OK. They are ONLY going straight into your bleed tube and out with your waste fluid into the bottle. Those bubbles will not go into your brake system and they are not coming from it either. If you see bigger bubbles and gaps in the tube, that is air coming through the system and you need to bleed until that stops.

So the main reason for rear fading was the air in the system with the abusing ofcourse, yes? The line appears to be quite solid no sign of air that can enter there.

If you had larger bubbles or gaps, I would say yes, definitely.

Thanks to all of you posted your advise and thoughts on this thread. I have learned alot!

That's the great thing about these forums. I learned everything I know this way. We are lucky to have such an active forum as the org. The other two bike forums I belong to are dead by comparison. LOL I am actually the one who seems to give out the most info there and I know darned well there are others who know a lot more than me!

 

[Tian]

I hate to brake it to you (har-har!!! get it, BRAKE???) but if you want a real improvement in braking, the thing that will make the biggest difference is a high performance master cylinder like Brembo. The stock MC probably has a bore that does not permit enough pressure to build. It's designed for linear braking--the harder you pull the more power to the brakes. That might sound good. The linear power delivery of the busa engine is wonderful for predictable acceleration but linear brakes are no good for racing or anything IMO. I do not even like them for normal commuting. Linear brakes are for people who have no clue at all about using brakes and are likely to over-brake in normal situations where very little brake power is needed. What you want is something that gives instant bite as soon as you touch the lever and will lock if you pull just a bit harder. YES--you want touchy brakes. Sounds wrong but it is right. You need to learn how to touch them and then you have very predictable brake power you don't need to search for pulling on the lever. Those are race brakes and AFAIC, the best brakes for all applications.

I do not think you will get that from pads or SS lines. It's been tried. The busa has a sucky MC and you need a Brembo radial MC with adjustable bore/stroke . There are different models. I can't tell you which is best but many people here will know. The ZX-14 MC is also very good but I do not like the linkage to the lever as much as Suzuki's design--it works though. You could pick up a used ZX-14 MC on Ebay.

I have an Accosato radial MC. Cheaper alternative to Brembo. Still have not tried it so I can't tell you how much better it is than stock.




I wish we had that here. I wouldn't dare try to bribe one of our cops. If it was that easy, I'd just carry a thou in my pocket all the time and go raise hell until I got caught. Get busted for 100 mph+ here and it's going to cost you a lot more than a thousand bucks.



If these are tiny teeny bubbles like pin points and they don't go away, that is air that gets sucked past the threads on the bleeder while you have it loose and are expressing fluid. Those tiny bubbles are OK. They are ONLY going straight into your bleed tube and out with your waste fluid into the bottle. Those bubbles will not go into your brake system and they are not coming from it either. If you see bigger bubbles and gaps in the tube, that is air coming through the system and you need to bleed until that stops.


If you had larger bubbles or gaps, I would say yes, definitely.


That's the great thing about these forums. I learned everything I know this way. We are lucky to have such an active forum as the org. The other two bike forums I belong to are dead by comparison. LOL I am actually the one who seems to give out the most info there and I know darned well there are others who know a lot more than me!

I understood.... and thank you.....
I did some digging through old bike parts i bought and never used of my gen1 and found a set of callipers. Is gen1 and 2 using same callipers until 2013 when ABS was released?
I will photo it tomorrow and show you? Maybe that might be an upgrade to what i have now....
I am making plans for a little cash boost to upgrade my bike.... so if i manage i will start my search for upgrades....

Cops part- Today i dodged work and went for a quick ride with 2 freinds.... and were pulled over at the roadblock(i was the only one with a license).... but we managed to talk us out of it without a bribe or penalty fee. Lol

Bleeding part-bigger bubbles and gaps was there too-but i just found that tons of tiny bubbles a bit strange. But now that front brake is my main brake-i have no issues with my braking. Did not race again with pillion but i did race twice alone and tested the brakes hard with pillion using front more and no issues. But still going to upgrade my system.[/QUOTE]

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

The early gen2 brakes were Tokico like gen1s but the gen1s had six pistons, early gen2s didn’t. Not sure if the mounting bolts match up either.

 

[ItsDooomz]

What you want is something that gives instant bite as soon as you touch the lever and will lock if you pull just a bit harder.

That's definitely NOT what I want.

 

[Mythos]

I did some digging through old bike parts i bought and never used of my gen1 and found a set of callipers. Is gen1 and 2 using same callipers until 2013 when ABS was released?

The Gen1 was known to have WORSE brakes than the Gen2.

i just found that tons of tiny bubbles a bit strange.

Watch the bleed as you express fluid. You will probably see evidence of air getting sucked past the threads of the bleeder. You might see a little sizzle in the moisture around the threads and the tiny bubbles that accompany it. You can use that to make your decision as to whether the tiny bubbles are coming from within or without. If coming from without (past the threads) no problem.

That's definitely NOT what I want.

You might not think so, ItsDooomz but if you got used to it, you would find it a lot more predictable. My 14 is like that and I have no problem doing max braking. You find the sweet spot immediately. The busa is more "squeeze more.more more ---where do I stop? I would never expect to stay on two wheels if I were to be braking hard in a corner anyway. That's where braking is going to cause you to crash. Think of this: would you rather touch the brake lever or pull it?