Brakes Fading

[Bailey9r]

The "Extreme Pro" with ceramic will stop shorter than the standard HH, and doesn't need to be kept hot.
One of the best street pads available.

Thanks Six; I had it backwards in my head, must be the misleading names. ;<)

 

[ROADTOAD1340]

I would love ceramic rotors from Braketech USA .... just saying cos all this ceramic talk triggered me !!!

 

[michael parris heuberger]

I would love ceramic rotors from Braketech USA .... just saying cos all this ceramic talk triggered me !!!

I would love ceramic rotors from Braketech USA .... just saying cos all this ceramic talk triggered me !!!

Hi ROADTOAD. I just happen to have a set of carbon ceramic rotors from Brake Tech USA, They are the first gen there are now on there 3 gen now I do not think they are out yet. I think they only made 10 sets, of the gen1. I will find out more info. I do not think they worked very good. So I have not used them. I will be getting the gen 3 if I can get brake pads for them that fits my Beringer brakes

 

[ROADTOAD1340]

Hi Mike , yes I know Braketech have had history of difficulty in regards to getting the ceramic rotor right . The huge weight advantage and potential for nearly perfect braking qualities has encouraged persistence in perfecting the rotor . I am not up to speed fully on the actual history of Braketechs hit and miss history in regards to Starblade Ceramic , but I also would like a gen 3 set !!
Mike , just got to say , the gen 3 rotors will be awesome on your T-Rex Busa !!

 

[michael parris heuberger]

Hi Mike , yes I know Braketech have had history of difficulty in regards to getting the ceramic rotor right . The huge weight advantage and potential for nearly perfect braking qualities has encouraged persistence in perfecting the rotor . I am not up to speed fully on the actual history of Braketechs hit and miss history in regards to Starblade Ceramic , but I also would like a gen 3 set !!
Mike , just got to say , the gen 3 rotors will be awesome on your T-Rex Busa !!

Hi Thanks I want to make the bike as light as I can and still be streetable it has to meet all the laws to get a inspection sticker. I would like to get a new class in LSR racing Pure Street to run for records.

 

[Tian]

Hi guys....

So i was a little offline the past 4 days... Had a bike run to the coast and did not had internet access... And while we were gone there was a storm in Windhoek which caused the internet to go out. But seems all is sorted out now. Will see how long it lasts. So now i am at work and loaded with tons of design work so i will reply inbetween all that to get updated.... :-)

 

[Tian]

Yeah. Progressively less braking power caused by progressively less fluid pressure. This could be caused by that air bubble I was speaking of getting pumped from the MC into the brake line. A little more air each time you hit the brake. The air is displacing the fluid that is supposed to be in the line.

The pedal is not returning to the UP position on fluid pressure like it should, it is returning on the safety spring and I believe there is a second tiny spring on the brake light sensor and that pulls the pedal up too. It should go up on fluid pressure alone if you have fluid pressure.]



Thanks for explaining me the quote part.... Think i am screwing it up trying but will see how it looks like after i hit the post reply button. So i will be bolding my replies for incase this is a screwup. lol


[Possible but you would need to be on the brake exceptionally hard and I'm sure repeatedly before you noticed brake fade from boiling. We do not hear about this except in road racing track use. It would produce the same symptoms you describe and it would go away on it's own like you have described.

That's INSANE brake use on the street. It's possible though. I'd think you would likely be liftig the rear end up some under that hard of braking. It is possible though.]

This hole weekend we were riding at the coast and on the towards the coast and back to the city, not a single brake issue. Also remember earlier in this thread you mentioned about the test i should do when on the paddock stand- I did it and the calliper is closing and releasing properly. No dragging nothing. So i think callipers we can throw of topic now, yes?

[They make DOT5 brake fluid for high temp race use. It is normally purple in color. It does work better if you get your brake fluid that hot but it is NOT for use in systems that not designed for DOT5. It will leak past seals. Might cause permanent damage to rubber parts. I do not believe the busa's stock system can tolerate DOT5. I know for a fact DOT5 will leak in the ZX-14's brakes. Make sure you do your research if you try that stuff.

Steel braided lines would also help if you are getting your brake fluid that hot.]

Ive heard about that brakefluid... We found a red heavyduty brakefluid which is DOT4. Which was recommended by yamaha. We are going to try it out and see if there is a difference with that in.


[That sounds like the correct procedure. The only thing I do differently is that I pump the lever and then hold it before I open the bleeder. Sounds like you are pumping the lever and then letting it go, then openning the bleeder and pulling the lever. I do not think it would make a difference if you did it my way or yours. Just don't let go of the lever when the bleed is open.]

Nope, not letting go... I pump it until it feels like it is suppose to feel, then i keep it in that position, open the bleed-press gently down till it bottoms out-still in that position-closing bleed-releasing the lever and repeat...


[Maybe you do have boiling fluid....damn! I really doubt that though. Even if you lock the brake one time, that shouldn't boil the fluid so you have partial braking 2 seconds later.

I must say, I've never experienced brake fade even on a road racing track. I am not skilled enough to use my brakes that hard though. I rely much on engine braking because I'm slower. If you are on the brake hard enough to produce brake fade I would think it would take more than one hard application of the brake.

On the topic of brake fade from fluid boil, it is also possible you have fluid contaminated with condensation. Water boils much easier than the lowest grade of pure brake fluid. If you have water in your system, it would lower the boiling point and also could cause rust. As someone mentioned before, brake fluid is very hygroscopic. It draws moisture from the air into it and there is an air pocket in your reservoir that could accumulate condensation which would run into your fluid. This is why it is a good precaution to never add brake fluid from a bottle that has been opened for some time to your system. If the seal on the bottle was broken a week ago, moisture could have gotten into the bottle. If the bottle was partially used, there is a large pocket of air that can accumulate condensation. So buy a small bottle and dispose of the unused portion properly.

I have used VERY old previously opened brake fluid many times. Never had a problem but it is a poor habit if not for the boiling protection, the rust hazard protection.

I think maybe i am very harder on the rear brake than what i am supposed to be...
I find it more comfortable for the passenger too. As its not that heavy force forward for her.
When braking hard i press down just until above where i know it will start to lock the wheel. That is quite deep in with the extra weight. The complete "circuit" has got 8 stops. The other one have got 15 stops in some with 100 meter robot to robot but average 2-300 meter robot to robot lenghts and some longer 400-500 meter robot to robot distance (not precise but an idea trying to check and calculate as i pass there)

Thanks for the condensation advise... Will make sure it is new opened bottles we use and then dispose of them as this is not something we did in the pass.


(On my view i did screw up the quote :-( so please click Expand to view to see complete reply)

 

[Tian]

Pour it into a bucket of kitty litter, let it sit a few days and toss in the trashcan.

You can do that with old coolant too. motor oil is accepted by many auto parts stores if you are good enough to buy a gallon of fresh oil from them.

I work my bike in my gf's brother's workshop... he have a big drum for dirty oil and stuff which a truck picks up and empty it then. But will keep the kitty litter idea in mind. Thanks

 

[Mythos]

Thanks for explaining me the quote part.... Think i am screwing it up trying but will see how it looks like after i hit the post reply button. So i will be bolding my replies for incase this is a screwup. lol

Looks like you're catching on. It would have worked as you intended if you highlighted only one statement to quote it and the type you reply below it. Then highlight the next statement you wish to quote and type your reply below that.

If you want to respond to multiple points, quote multiple excerpts separately and respond to each separately. You quoted the whole thing at once.

Here is how I made this reply to quotes by you:

This hole weekend we were riding at the coast and on the towards the coast and back to the city, not a single brake issue. Also remember earlier in this thread you mentioned about the test i should do when on the paddock stand- I did it and the calliper is closing and releasing properly. No dragging nothing. So i think callipers we can throw of topic now, yes?

I think they are working fine.

When braking hard i press down just until above where i know it will start to lock the wheel. That is quite deep in with the extra weight. The complete "circuit" has got 8 stops. The other one have got 15 stops in some with 100 meter robot to robot but average 2-300 meter robot to robot lenghts and some longer 400-500 meter robot to robot distance (not precise but an idea trying to check and calculate as i pass there)

I think you are actually maxing out the rear brake on the street. I've never tried to do it on purpose. That is much harder than I use my rear brake unless it might be an emergency stop and then I'm on the front too. A lot of people say to use only the front but if you have a purpose for the rear, I don't see why you shouldn't use it. Just be aware of the limitations of relying on the rear brake.

 

[Tian]

I was wondering if having a passenger generates enough rearward weight to prevent most weight from shifting forward while braking. That shift is the only reason the front brake normally handles most of the braking. There would be no lifting of the rear. Also any changes to Lian's suspension like a lowering of the bike, fork height and settings, can move the center of gravity while braking rearward.

No rising of the rear suspension would allocate fifty percent or more traction to the rear tire, and thus fifty percent of the traction would be available for braking in the rear, with the mediocre ten inch disk. Also, with the passenger there is now more total braking force, front and rear, than you could possibly generate solo on a track. (Braking force can only equal traction and traction is a function of weight.) Also on the track one keeps moving so there is constant cooling. Tian is in between stoplights and cooling is significantly limited.

Along these lines, my first thought was that Tian is exceeding the braking capacity on the rear with one emergency stop, and like he suspected, getting a complete heat fade. The twenty-five percent fade of the front does not sound out of bounds for such conditions. A friend with an infrared thermometer could answer all of the questions about temperatures reached. However, it would be better never to do this racing with a passenger as it is too dangerous!

I am guessing and this is theoretical, so I would be glad to be corrected by someone who knows better.

Really interesting on what you mentioned about the suspensions.... The bike is not lowered.... but i did set my front suspension a little stiffer as i found it more comfortable when cornering. The rear thing that you can turn at the spring is on its softest. Or it turned completely to the top.... i can take photo tomorrow if my "explanation" does not make sense, yes?

 

[Tian]

Oh man, I phoned a multi courier outlet nearby and was told that fedex would cost about $250 and the post office would cost just under $70 for a two pound package with no delivery time listed for fedex and eight days for the post office delivery. I’m going to town next week so I can try another outlet in person to see if the prices are any different. From here to there is (only) 9,679 miles.....

Thank you for finding out!
This couriers is really ridiculous! On the bike event i was the past weekend i got a possible way to get my ebay and postage things here faster. But then i ship it to Zambia and the guy there ships it to me through passenger busses. No tax nothing on our borders. 14 day delivery then. Cause SA & Nam customs are excluded. Its a bike who immigrated to Zambia and he is doing it for my freind. So my freind will ask him if he would help me too.

Im still waiting on my quotes.... i told them ships from Nevada- that is correct, yes?

Thing with post is-it arrives fast here in africa. But it all goes to SA customs. As they are useless it lies there for weeks before they start sorting and sending onwards to Namibia. In namibia it lies again for a week or 2 maybe longer before it finally arrives in my post box.
I am on the search for someone who can take shortcuts.... to make it go quicker through both customs for a extra price ofcourse-but in the past 2/3 years no luck sofar. But will get there.

I dint mind the waiting.... but will first try out other ways before posting. :-)

 

[sixpack577]

Really interesting on what you mentioned about the suspensions.... The bike is not lowered.... but i did set my front suspension a little stiffer as i found it more comfortable when cornering. The rear thing that you can turn at the spring is on its softest. Or it turned completely to the top.... i can take photo tomorrow if my "explanation" does not make sense, yes?

If the suspension sag is not set, it needs to be done!
Search here for "Jinkster attacks suspension"
It shows you how, step by step.
But, suspension settings are not causing your rear brake issues.

 

[Tian]

Looks like you're catching on. It would have worked as you intended if you highlighted only one statement to quote it and the type you reply below it. Then highlight the next statement you wish to quote and type your reply below that.

If you want to respond to multiple points, quote multiple excerpts separately and respond to each separately. You quoted the whole thing at once.




I think you are actually maxing out the rear brake on the street. I've never tried to do it on purpose. That is much harder than I use my rear brake unless it might be an emergency stop and then I'm on the front too. A lot of people say to use only the front but if you have a purpose for the rear, I don't see why you shouldn't use it. Just be aware of the limitations of relying on the rear brake.

Part 1- aha, think i might get it next time.... but for now this way again as im on my phone now lol will try tomorrow at work from computer....

Part 2- i also using the both of the brakes.... but mostly rear to make it easier for my Ms Pillion... but also heard people say to use front mostly. So i use rear to brake most speed and then front for final stopping... also i am scared that if i use my front that same amound as rear that may be gone when i really need them. So this way i am always sure that when i need them front brakes they will be there. You know with all this my trust is not really 100% there when it gets to braking.

 

[Tian]

If the suspension sag is not set, it needs to be done!
Search here for "Jinkster attacks suspension"
It shows you how, step by step.
But, suspension settings are not causing your rear brake issues.

Thanks bro.... will check it out. And then set it.... if it is not properly setted.
Yep, definitly not the cause.... but perhaps if the suspensions is setted perfectly it might increase braking power.

 

[Tian]

So to update from my side.... the day over tomorrow is bike working day! Got brakefluid. Will post a pic of the brakefluid tomorrow.

Really have a long list of todo's on that Busa! Lol.
From a seal replace to fitting new rear tyre and respraying nose fender etc etc etc

 

[ali123]

So to update from my side.... the day over tomorrow is bike working day! Got brakefluid. Will post a pic of the brakefluid tomorrow.

Really have a long list of todo's on that Busa! Lol.
From a seal replace to fitting new rear tyre and respraying nose fender etc etc etc

first rule.... do no harm.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Part 1- aha, think i might get it next time.... but for now this way again as im on my phone now lol will try tomorrow at work from computer....

Part 2- i also using the both of the brakes.... but mostly rear to make it easier for my Ms Pillion... but also heard people say to use front mostly. So i use rear to brake most speed and then front for final stopping... also i am scared that if i use my front that same amound as rear that may be gone when i really need them. So this way i am always sure that when i need them front brakes they will be there. You know with all this my trust is not really 100% there when it gets to braking.

I can understand your using the rear brake with a passenger to keep her from climbing over your shoulders as I recall that when I’ve ridden my daughter around. They actually make grab bars for the tank so your pillion can reach around and grab them upon braking. Keep in mind though that the front brakes have two large rotors (in the breeze) whereas your rear brake has a tiny single rotor (not in the breeze) so it’s not cooling like the fronts would be. That along with inferior quality pads might be adding to your brake problem. I’d use the fronts lightly to scrub off speed then apply the rear. BTW I’m in California, close to Nevada but over the Sierras from the state line. Find Yosemite NP on a map and I’m just 23 miles south. I got another quote from fedex and it’s even higher than the first one. I wonder, will I get a different quote depending on which office I go to?

 

[Tian]

first rule.... do no harm.

Lol yeah.... Which is why my gf's brother is going to do the fixing work, removing and replacing of parts. He is one of those who can put a thing exactly back the way he removed it. Tons of patience. I again love cleaning things. Hate dirt on my bike. So as he removes i will clean.

 

[Tian]

I can understand your using the rear brake with a passenger to keep her from climbing over your shoulders as I recall that when I’ve ridden my daughter around. They actually make grab bars for the tank so your pillion can reach around and grab them upon braking. Keep in mind though that the front brakes have two large rotors (in the breeze) whereas your rear brake has a tiny single rotor (not in the breeze) so it’s not cooling like the fronts would be. That along with inferior quality pads might be adding to your brake problem. I’d use the fronts lightly to scrub off speed then apply the rear. BTW I’m in California, close to Nevada but over the Sierras from the state line. Find Yosemite NP on a map and I’m just 23 miles south. I got another quote from fedex and it’s even higher than the first one. I wonder, will I get a different quote depending on which office I go to?

Grab bars for the tank??? Never heard of that...
Only grab bar i know of is on the rear side which is quite uncomfortable holding on to....

Okay... Figured from a previous thread we spoked about Nevada. Should have asked though but will have it changed on the quote... Lol maybe they quote you on depending which mood they are in
If FEDEX is that expensive i do not even want to know what DHL would quote a person. I just know they are much, much more expensive than FEDEX. So won't even bother with them.

 

[ali123]

Grab bars for the tank??? Never heard of that...
Only grab bar i know of is on the rear side which is quite uncomfortable holding on to....

Okay... Figured from a previous thread we spoked about Nevada. Should have asked though but will have it changed on the quote... Lol maybe they quote you on depending which mood they are in
If FEDEX is that expensive i do not even want to know what DHL would quote a person. I just know they are much, much more expensive than FEDEX. So won't even bother with them.

dhl stuff flies through customs