How long before the Tesla motorcycles are passing your Busa on the road?
Charlottesville, Virginia Well I Will Start The Conversation.
- Thread starter captain
- Start date
Over-under on how long it will be before someone starts the 'protest' to have Lee-Jackson Day removed as a Virginia Public Holiday?
RedBull
Registered
Not too much trouble, but the backlash for all that could lead to far worse than where we are right now.
In looking up the sheer numbers/items tied to Lee I was reminded of this - in 2015, when the confederate flag controversy first gained real traction, 9 African Americans were gunned down in cold blood in a SC church. Sadly, because violence is almost common news anymore, I'd forgotten why this happened. The reason for the crimes - a white-supremacist shooter was hoping to start a race war. I would love to see all hate eradicated from this world, but you show me a point in time, EVER in the history of man when hate or hate-groups, when racism, didn't exist. Please, show me just ONE. I'd give anything for that, for every child to grow up never knowing hate or bias, but that is not a reality. In our lifetime, and our parents' and grandparents' lifetimes, vast progress has been made, but recently, I see a shift in the wrong direction, for the wrong reasons. It's like we're looking for a problem, making problems that don't need to exist because we have enough already. Growth and progress takes time, and I have hope that we will continue to move forward in spite of hate groups or history and what was, but some things need to be done at a pace that can be tolerated by the masses. You rip this all off like a band-aid, it's like throwing gasoline on a fire. I'm sure generations before us wished so badly for progress forward, real progress, but it did not come overnight or without struggle. It did come though. With each generation change comes. I've seen so much change in race relations from my own childhood to my children's, and it makes me happy to see that it's not like it used to be.
The caveat will always be that you cannot stop the existence of hate. They will raise their children in that hate, generation after generation. Not one time in the history of man has hate not existed, throughout the world.
So I ask you this - let's remove every sign of what is currently being asked to be taken down for all of the reasons given. Do you think those white-supremacist groups will allow this to go unpunished or unnoticed? To them, it 's likely reason to fight. I'm afraid that the actions of some thinking they're doing good today are indirectly causing the death and destruction of lives down the road, lives that might have been something greater, might have effected real change and progress forward, but they'll be interrupted by extreme hate and violence in retaliation for what? Symbols, a name of the school they're in? Those 9 people sitting in a church, during Bible study, gunned down in hate, over a flag. That's 9 lives, brought to finality by hate in an attempt to do exactly what these hate groups want - start a race war.
One can argue that symbolism means a lot, but I'd argue that we have had, and still have throughout the world, REAL STRUGGLES, people living with REAL HARDSHIPS that we (you, me, my kids, most reading this) could never know, never want to know. Finding food, obtaining any healthcare, quality drinking water, surviving civil war, disease and famine...
Is this the fight we should be choosing for ourselves at this time? Just stop and think about it.
To me, pro-Nazi hate groups will only be ignited and grow, maybe larger than they ever have in our history. That scares me far more than the symbols. And don't you feel that our current state of the world, threats of all kinds we may have at our door, that we need to be a united country to even be strong. We are imploding with such division, and we are weak because of it.
Boomer07
Registered
That's the first time I've ever been able to hear the rear tire grabbing for traction, pretty cool stuff.
VaBusa, you cannot look away from evil or wait for it to go away. Evil is like a wolf. It will not attack the herd where they are strong, the wolf will pick off the weak straggler who falls behind. I was born in 1961 and I know that there are some things I will be very difficult to do in my lifetime because of my skin color. I know people here will say "you're thinking like a victim". I work harder than 99% of the people and I have been one of the first black person through many doors so you can believe what you want but I'm a realist. I'm just not willing to wait for evil too "allow" me to be equal, because they never will. My father always said "make them steal it from you because they want you to give up".
There is a guy in my office who I hired into the industry when I was at another office. We have known each other for 25 years and worked together at several firms. I basically taught him all he knows. Work ethic, attention to technical details, etc. He was very upset about Charlottesville last weekend (maybe he was there?) and has been posting racist posts on FB all week. That's what these people are and they aren't going to change. I can't run from this anymore than a Jew could run from the Nazis in the 1930's. It's just what it is. The families of those 9 people in Charleston SC know that, most of us know it.
I have met some great people here on the org, you and Omar of some of the finest. But we're just not going to get to the same place on these types of issues. I accept that and can be grateful for good times we've had on the org and the Busa. Like I said I'm a realist.
There is a guy in my office who I hired into the industry when I was at another office. We have known each other for 25 years and worked together at several firms. I basically taught him all he knows. Work ethic, attention to technical details, etc. He was very upset about Charlottesville last weekend (maybe he was there?) and has been posting racist posts on FB all week. That's what these people are and they aren't going to change. I can't run from this anymore than a Jew could run from the Nazis in the 1930's. It's just what it is. The families of those 9 people in Charleston SC know that, most of us know it.
I have met some great people here on the org, you and Omar of some of the finest. But we're just not going to get to the same place on these types of issues. I accept that and can be grateful for good times we've had on the org and the Busa. Like I said I'm a realist.
Arch, just my experience living in CA, AR, NC and working in the pacific American Samoa for three years, I have never ever personally experienced racism here in the US. My last post with a large fortune 100 company (retired now) I had factories all over the country, Canada, Europe and Australia and I can honestly share the same experience. Been here 17 years now permanently and in and out since 1983. My only experience of racism has been what I see in the media and the internet as in right this moment while writing this post. Sure, I am white so my experience may be very different to yours. However I had many black work colleagues, people I did business with and have never noticed any of them, or my white colleagues show racial tendencies. So personally, for me and as it applies to my personal experience I must conclude that it is not the norm, but a rare exception. Again, as far as my own personal experience goes and the people I have in my own circle of life.
ok Jelly.
like I said I see it every day and many here will swear they have never seen it. 2 perspectives probably not going to find a middle ground.
like I said I see it every day and many here will swear they have never seen it. 2 perspectives probably not going to find a middle ground.
Maybe one day we can sit around the fire pit and chat about this on a better day. I have lived through racism more than half of my adult life, but not here in America. I know what it really looks like.
Best we talk motorcycles my friend.
TallTom
Registered
Arch. I totally know that because of your skin color you have had to suffer some discrimination. I grew up watching it, and still see it exist today. Not right and for that we can agree.
Let me pose a question? Why do we not see racial tensions exist between Asians or Latinos or Russians?
Let me propose an answer. None of them are trying to make America change to suit them. They try to become a part of why America works. Acceptance, hard work, respect and prosperity. When slavery was abolished, we used Chinese to build our land. They are still here, prospering and assimilating. Why have they figured out how to do it? Irish were nearly slaves. They figured it out. Etc. Etc.
I am sorry that you have been subjected to discrimination because of your skin color. Do you as a black person feel like your race can ever take some responsibility as to why? I as a white American am afraid of blacks and now Muslims because they are attacking my America instead of trying to assimilate into what my America has been for 70 years.
America is changing demographically. As those Demographics change the values by which made America what it is are eroding. I as a white American am worried for the fact that we are going down simply by being over run by people from other lands trying to make us (America) be what they now want to make us into.
I'll take care of me in the end. I am 95% certain I will leave this country for good in about 5 more years. Already trying to buy my escape home in Asia.
I also find I have to work 99% harder to get ahead. That ain't about skin color. That's about being an American. Hard work is part of our moral fabric. It's expected of all of us, not just the black skinned ones.
And THAT ethic has certainly fallen by the wayside.
I rent one of my properties to some young S. Korean renters. They work hard, pay good rent, are growing a very nice business as a cell phone company. They are part of the reason I have faith in America. They adopted what made us work and we all gain as a result. The rent is on time like clockwork, they take care of the house and they hope to buy it. I'm thrilled to try and help make that happen.
Prior to them renting, I had a black family apply for the same house. I ran the same background check on them as I do everyone else. I had to reject them due to the results of that background check. I was contacted by an attorney, threatening me with legal action. This is part of the problem we face. I have rejected more than one applican't of more than one race. Never a problem with any other races.
In my world, this is how I form my biasing. Has nothing to do with you as a black skinned man individually. But it has much to do with deciding if it's worth my effort to figure out which black skinned person is going to be a problem or not for me. And I am tired of trying to apologize for feeling that way anymore. That is being politically correct for trying to apologize. It is not solving the problem.
Let me pose a question? Why do we not see racial tensions exist between Asians or Latinos or Russians?
Let me propose an answer. None of them are trying to make America change to suit them. They try to become a part of why America works. Acceptance, hard work, respect and prosperity. When slavery was abolished, we used Chinese to build our land. They are still here, prospering and assimilating. Why have they figured out how to do it? Irish were nearly slaves. They figured it out. Etc. Etc.
I am sorry that you have been subjected to discrimination because of your skin color. Do you as a black person feel like your race can ever take some responsibility as to why? I as a white American am afraid of blacks and now Muslims because they are attacking my America instead of trying to assimilate into what my America has been for 70 years.
America is changing demographically. As those Demographics change the values by which made America what it is are eroding. I as a white American am worried for the fact that we are going down simply by being over run by people from other lands trying to make us (America) be what they now want to make us into.
I'll take care of me in the end. I am 95% certain I will leave this country for good in about 5 more years. Already trying to buy my escape home in Asia.
I also find I have to work 99% harder to get ahead. That ain't about skin color. That's about being an American. Hard work is part of our moral fabric. It's expected of all of us, not just the black skinned ones.
And THAT ethic has certainly fallen by the wayside.
I rent one of my properties to some young S. Korean renters. They work hard, pay good rent, are growing a very nice business as a cell phone company. They are part of the reason I have faith in America. They adopted what made us work and we all gain as a result. The rent is on time like clockwork, they take care of the house and they hope to buy it. I'm thrilled to try and help make that happen.
Prior to them renting, I had a black family apply for the same house. I ran the same background check on them as I do everyone else. I had to reject them due to the results of that background check. I was contacted by an attorney, threatening me with legal action. This is part of the problem we face. I have rejected more than one applican't of more than one race. Never a problem with any other races.
In my world, this is how I form my biasing. Has nothing to do with you as a black skinned man individually. But it has much to do with deciding if it's worth my effort to figure out which black skinned person is going to be a problem or not for me. And I am tired of trying to apologize for feeling that way anymore. That is being politically correct for trying to apologize. It is not solving the problem.
TallTom I disagree with much of your post. But I don't care enough to get into a long post-debate with you, especially when you start from the place you're at mentally. Where I am with this subject is that there is little point in discussing it with people who carry such a strong prejudice (both me and you). We'll see how things work out. Could start up all over again in Boston today. Let's hope not.
RedBull
Registered
TallTom
Registered
If Boston does blow up maybe we can use this thread to see with new eyes how it went wrong.
So far it is legally permitted by a group labelled as free speech. They have publically stated they are worried that racist groups are going to hijack the venue.
We can hopefully keep an open mind.
So far it is legally permitted by a group labelled as free speech. They have publically stated they are worried that racist groups are going to hijack the venue.
We can hopefully keep an open mind.
The good news in all of the discussion is this...
1) It's Okay to have differeing opinions.
2) It is possible to have an adult discussion about any topic.
3) It is possible to rationally convey thoughts, ideas and express opinion without degrading the target audience with direct insults or placing absolutes on anyone or anything..
Nice work folks, its these types of conversations that made this website what it is and set it apart. You don't get this level of discussion, involvement or personal relationship from a single line post on facebook. Great insight and opinions to help us all see how others perceive things based on thier experiences.
Thank you all for the very mature responses.
Cap
1) It's Okay to have differeing opinions.
2) It is possible to have an adult discussion about any topic.
3) It is possible to rationally convey thoughts, ideas and express opinion without degrading the target audience with direct insults or placing absolutes on anyone or anything..
Nice work folks, its these types of conversations that made this website what it is and set it apart. You don't get this level of discussion, involvement or personal relationship from a single line post on facebook. Great insight and opinions to help us all see how others perceive things based on thier experiences.
Thank you all for the very mature responses.
Cap
This is probably a daring post, but I will take my chances.
It's interesting that the race card came up again, happens now and then here on the forum and there is never a chance for folks to get onto the same page. Trust, me have made a few sincere attempts over the years, as to me people do not carry labels based on their appearance, we are all human beings.
In the Charlottesville march, the slogan I heard was "Jews will not replace us." My neighbor, a good friend is a Jewish American and we discussed this, I specifically asked him how he feels about it. His reply: "Willem, we have high self esteem, nothing to prove, no egos and we place ourselves so high above that kind of uneducated behavior that it really receives no attention from us. They cannot hurt me, that would be like you getting upset because someones dog barked at you. I am sure you will pay it no attention and forget about it a few minutes later."
If we look at hatred in the world, most of it has nothing to do with skin color, a few of many examples:
1.) The US and the Soviet Union failed to negotiate an independent Korea, one nation became divided and after the stalemate of the Korean war we now have the North hating the South.
2.) British colonialism partitioned British India in 1947 into two modern states of India and Pakistan. Four wars followed, and one undeclared. It is impossible for these folks to get along.
3.) South Africa during the apartheid years was known for racism. However few people know the fact that inter tribal tensions were far more severe in hate and violence than white against black. There were ten tribes in Southern Africa, being Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho, Twana, Pedi, Venda, Ndebele, Tsonga, Pondo, and Swati. Then there is a rural mixture of the former who lost their tribal identity. The Zulus, Xhosas and Sothos hated each other and the violence between these tribes were horrific. The rural mixture and the white population had the apartheid problem, however the violence was small compared to tribal tensions. British Colonialism started apartheid and by 1961 when the country became the Republic of South Africa apartheid was a major issue, with the ANC aligned with the Soviet Union. It is no coincidence that apartheid disappeared shortly after the Soviet Union was disbanded. Mandela became president and did an excellent job of attempting to reconcile different peoples in the same land. Today, Jacob Zuma is the president and he personally has rallies chanting "kill the white man" so all the hatred is back.
4.) Africa has two economic powers, being Nigeria and South Africa. Other than that it is a desperate poor continent with frequent interracial wars between people of the same color. Hunger, famine and disease is rife.
I can still clearly remember my first Girlfriend. She was a cute petite Greek girl and every time I dated her, I had to pick her up at the bus stop, because if her brothers or father found out she was dating someone who was not Greek, she believed I could end up being shot. Did it bother me? Hell no, I thought it was a cool adventure.
When we get to the good O'l USA no one else has succeeded to do such a terrific job of uniting peoples from all over the world to work together making this the greatest country on earth. I immigrated here and became a citizen in 2006. Everyone accepted me with open arms. We have something great here and a few radical groups and those feeling compromised are absolutely in the minority. We may have issues now stemming from partisan politics, but I believe those will be conquered in time. To my African American friends, all I can say is join the party and understand that for your forefathers the past may have been really tough, however the reward they gave you by escaping Africa is unimaginable.
It's interesting that the race card came up again, happens now and then here on the forum and there is never a chance for folks to get onto the same page. Trust, me have made a few sincere attempts over the years, as to me people do not carry labels based on their appearance, we are all human beings.
In the Charlottesville march, the slogan I heard was "Jews will not replace us." My neighbor, a good friend is a Jewish American and we discussed this, I specifically asked him how he feels about it. His reply: "Willem, we have high self esteem, nothing to prove, no egos and we place ourselves so high above that kind of uneducated behavior that it really receives no attention from us. They cannot hurt me, that would be like you getting upset because someones dog barked at you. I am sure you will pay it no attention and forget about it a few minutes later."
If we look at hatred in the world, most of it has nothing to do with skin color, a few of many examples:
1.) The US and the Soviet Union failed to negotiate an independent Korea, one nation became divided and after the stalemate of the Korean war we now have the North hating the South.
2.) British colonialism partitioned British India in 1947 into two modern states of India and Pakistan. Four wars followed, and one undeclared. It is impossible for these folks to get along.
3.) South Africa during the apartheid years was known for racism. However few people know the fact that inter tribal tensions were far more severe in hate and violence than white against black. There were ten tribes in Southern Africa, being Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho, Twana, Pedi, Venda, Ndebele, Tsonga, Pondo, and Swati. Then there is a rural mixture of the former who lost their tribal identity. The Zulus, Xhosas and Sothos hated each other and the violence between these tribes were horrific. The rural mixture and the white population had the apartheid problem, however the violence was small compared to tribal tensions. British Colonialism started apartheid and by 1961 when the country became the Republic of South Africa apartheid was a major issue, with the ANC aligned with the Soviet Union. It is no coincidence that apartheid disappeared shortly after the Soviet Union was disbanded. Mandela became president and did an excellent job of attempting to reconcile different peoples in the same land. Today, Jacob Zuma is the president and he personally has rallies chanting "kill the white man" so all the hatred is back.
4.) Africa has two economic powers, being Nigeria and South Africa. Other than that it is a desperate poor continent with frequent interracial wars between people of the same color. Hunger, famine and disease is rife.
I can still clearly remember my first Girlfriend. She was a cute petite Greek girl and every time I dated her, I had to pick her up at the bus stop, because if her brothers or father found out she was dating someone who was not Greek, she believed I could end up being shot. Did it bother me? Hell no, I thought it was a cool adventure.
When we get to the good O'l USA no one else has succeeded to do such a terrific job of uniting peoples from all over the world to work together making this the greatest country on earth. I immigrated here and became a citizen in 2006. Everyone accepted me with open arms. We have something great here and a few radical groups and those feeling compromised are absolutely in the minority. We may have issues now stemming from partisan politics, but I believe those will be conquered in time. To my African American friends, all I can say is join the party and understand that for your forefathers the past may have been really tough, however the reward they gave you by escaping Africa is unimaginable.
You're not going to like this or agree, but this jumped out at me like a neon sign while reading it. Quoted from page 6 alone...
That is exactly what you sound like and it's pervasive throughout society today, everyone looking for their right not to be offended and then offended once they think they've found it.
You don't need others to limit you, you've already done it to yourself. All sorts of people want to make things difficult for other people for all sorts of reasons, skin color isn't the only one.
You seem to measure things by skin color at every turn. Wonder what would happen if you took a break from that?
That's a pretty tall claim.
Evil? Them? They? That wouldn't be white people would it? If not I'm not sure who you're referring to here. You seem to find racism around every corner and you appear to be very comfortable measuring the world by it.
Please screen capture his posts and put them here, I'm willing to bet your version of racism might differ from others as you seem to filter most things by it. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but you've already tipped your hand to the thinking here when you throw out that he might have been at the protest, certainly implying he was with the nazis.
Sorry but there isn't any part of this that collides in the same solar system as what the Jews endured, not even close. The only exception seems to be Trump is literally Hitler to those who disagree with him. You're free to run or stand your ground in this country. It's life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, no one guarantees any of it or promises it will without whatever your version of road block is being put in front of you.
Seriously man a good long look in the mirror and some self assessment might be beneficial if you're seeing it everyday. Racism exists and so do a million other obstacles but you appear (at least from your posts) to be defined by it.
justintime2 I'm a pretty successful guy. I make a great salary and own a nice chunk of our company. I'm not a victim and I've done pretty well in this life. I'm a realist. Thanks for your life coaching though I'll take it under advisement.
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