Cold weather presents an opportunity to slide safely

[IG.]

We all know that tar snakes are slippery when wet. We also know that their compound becomes soft when it's really hot, and at that point they become pretty slippery, too.

Well, when it gets really cold, like a few degrees above freezing, they, too, become just a tad slippery compared to the rest of the pavement, but not to a degree like in the conditions above. What it means is that a possible slide is very gentle. I purposefully rode over tar snakes in turns recently, and experienced gentle small slides at moderate lean angles like 35-40 degrees (zero being vertical). That's on BT0016 with 30 psi cold in both tires. If you think about it, the width of tar snakes is no more than a couple of inches, so the rear is not going to slide too far.

Of course, a rider has to be steady on the gas or slightly accelerating, staying relaxed, and simply ignoring the slides as they happen. Screaming "Oh, Yeah!" in the helmet is allowed.

In the past, I actually rode in the wet over tar snakes (in warm weather) in order to experience small slides and to get used to them. It felt a bit more abrupt, but staying on the gas and ignoring the slides seemed to work just fine. I even experienced slide-and-grab once going over a long tar snake when it was really hot, like 90 degrees. That was a bit frightening, but I regained composure after a couple of seconds.

It's a great way to program yourself to never close the throttle when you feel the rear starts sliding a bit. Has anyone done something like that? Any interesting experience?

 

[GNBRETT]

got a better idea! avoid the slide all together and ride wen its warm n dry out.??? its december bro! ur still riding?

 

[ZRXMAX]

I use to play with them a bit back in the early 90s in Norcal on a V65 Sabre and Michelin tires.

I don't recall much sliding, just some movements that kept me alert. Fast forward.

1 year + ago I am headed into the Palm Springs area on highway 74 and its pretty warm out. I had not really noticed much in the way of tar

snakes until I came around a right hand curve with a guardrail on my left.

I felt the slide however brief it was and it scared me into stopping my decent into warmer temps and going back

home the way I came. I wasn't leaned over all that much, however, the thought of sliding down to the plastics,

spinning out of control, and hitting a gaurdrail at 40 mph was enough for me to imagine.

 

[fallenarch]

Ooooh! Don't try that one at home!

 

[05 Busa LE]

Honestly, I think a few days on a dirt bike is a better way to learn how to slide.

 

[IG.]

got a better idea! avoid the slide all together and ride wen its warm n dry out.??? its december bro! ur still riding?

I ride year around as long as there is no snow/ice on the road. Just can't stay away, LOL. You'd be surprised, at least here on Long Island, you get an occasional day which is good for riding. I rode in 25 - 20 and even once or twice at 15-18 degrees. Sure, I pack like a cosmonaut, can barely climb on the bike, and the ride lasts 15-20 minutes, but man, it puts a big smile on my face.

 

[IG.]

Honestly, I think a few days on a dirt bike is a better way to learn how to slide.

This is an extreme approach, and is very impractical. I am not attracted to dirt riding, and not about to go out buy a dirt bike, figure out how to trail it, where to store, maintain, then you need to find a place where to ride, trail there, buy gear, and probably gazzillion more smaller things.

That's why when an opportunity presents itself, you take it, and that's what seems reasonable and practical.

 

[IG.]

I use to play with them a bit back in the early 90s in Norcal on a V65 Sabre and Michelin tires.

I don't recall much sliding, just some movements that kept me alert. Fast forward.

1 year + ago I am headed into the Palm Springs area on highway 74 and its pretty warm out. I had not really noticed much in the way of tar

snakes until I came around a right hand curve with a guardrail on my left.

I felt the slide however brief it was and it scared me into stopping my decent into warmer temps and going back

home the way I came. I wasn't leaned over all that much, however, the thought of sliding down to the plastics,

spinning out of control, and hitting a gaurdrail at 40 mph was enough for me to imagine.

I know the feeling... Could've been something on the road. It is unlikely anything bad would've happened if you simply ignored it.

This is one of the reasons it's important to get familiar with rear end slides - to manage them and not to be afraid of them. Most any modern tire will give enough warning before going out into a really bad loss of traction. The key is to 1) approach traction limits gently, and 2) react to partial loss of traction properly, which is most of the time to simply ignore them.

It's not easy to re-program yourself, so experiencing predictable and very small slides really helps to start perceiving them as being not such a big deal.

Remember that unlike a car, a motorcycle automatically compensates for the rear wheel slide by "stepping" out a bit and in just the right amount. So, when you feel that "stepping out", it's the bike actually working for you. The worst thing a rider can do is to close the throttle - which is very tempting without re-programming yourself. Not only this may cause an abrupt movement of the rear leading to possibly something worse, this may possibly overload the front causing it to lose traction. So, closing the throttle is the last thing you want to do under such circumstances, but coincidentally this is the first thing we are tempted to do unless we re-program our reaction to such scenario.

 

[IG.]

Ooooh! Don't try that one at home!

Certainly, not at home. Gotta take it outdoors.

 

[fallenarch]

Certainly, not at home. Gotta take it outdoors.

Ha! ha! Reminds me of the picture of the dude that had done doughnuts on a wood floor in the living room of his apartment.


BTW: Went out today (50 degrees but pretty comfortable with heated vest) and tried the shifting without a clutch thing you were talking about. Blew the transmission - thanks a lot bro! Not really SOB! it really works great! It actually feels smoother than using a clutch. Pretty amazing thanks for the tip.

 

[IG.]

Ha! ha! Reminds me of the picture of the dude that had done doughnuts on a wood floor in the living room of his apartment.


BTW: Went out today (50 degrees but pretty comfortable with heated vest) and tried the shifting without a clutch thing you were talking about. Blew the transmission - thanks a lot bro! Not really SOB! it really works great! It actually feels smoother than using a clutch. Pretty amazing thanks for the tip.

You are welcome! You scared me for a moment there, arch... :O Thank Sport Rider mag or Motorcyslist for that. I was as clueless about it until I read about it some years ago, said to myself 'gotta try it', and had the same reaction.

The only proper thing to do with the bike indoors...

 

[texomawaves]

lmao IG, funny pic. What are yall's opinions on ABS in these situations? I have ABS on my 2014 busa.

 

[IG.]

lmao IG, funny pic. What are yall's opinions on ABS in these situations? I have ABS on my 2014 busa.

I always avoid scenarios where the front end may slide as much as possible. Because once it happens, the game is over, and if ABS can save that, that's great.

With the rear sliding a bit while you are on the gas, ABS has little to do with that. That would be traction control which could possibly help.

But again, while ABS and traction control can certainly save a situation, they also mask to a degree if a rider is doing something wrong. To me, getting the feel for the bike is more important, although in certain situations I wish I had ABS/traction control to save me.

 

[1busa]

Agree with IG on that one.... I don't see how ABS would play a factor in this situation. Traction control I can see it aiding you in recovering the wash out but not ABS. Even with traction control, ABS, and L.E.D. Cup holders none of them will help you if you are mid turn/leaned and your azz end washes out on you and immediately lock brakes and attempt 2 stand the bike up. You might be lucky @ 35mph but if your going a good clip in2 a turn you still have 2 maintain control of the motorcycle, no gadget is gonna replace skill & composure. Not an expert but only giving my opinion based off my experiences.

 

[1busa]

I come from a Motocross background so that feeling of the rear end sliding out is not a foreign feeling 2 me. When I happen 2 hit a tar snake of my busa and I feel that slip in traction mid turn it does give me a little bit of a rush and puts a smile on my face. I even managed 2 bust out a few power slides on my busa.... not necessarily on purpose but cold tires with a wet surface chit happens Point is I recognized what was happening and didn't freeze or over think the situation. I reacted and even tho I was sliding/drifting I felt I was in control and managed 2 ride it out using the throttle, steering, and body positioning.

 

[Tufbusa]

I always avoid scenarios where the front end may slide as much as possible. Because once it happens, the game is over, and if ABS can save that, that's great.

With the rear sliding a bit while you are on the gas, ABS has little to do with that. That would be traction control which could possibly help.

But again, while ABS and traction control can certainly save a situation, they also mask to a degree if a rider is doing something wrong. To me, getting the feel for the bike is more important, although in certain situations I wish I had ABS/traction control to save me.

I was confused on where you were coming from on this thread until this post. You are using the tar snakes to break the rear loose while you are straight up. Personally I wouldn't classify that as a slide. To me, a slide occurs when you are leaned over. I've always used wet pavement to play with rear wheel spin. I like a consistent surface when testing traction. A wet surface gives me that consistency as well as allowing the tire to loose traction more easily.

You say when a front tire slides, game over. Have you ever had a front tire slide, if so how many times have you crashed as a result?

Up here where men are man and sheep are scared when tar snakes and traction collide in a corner we call that a wriggle, not a slide.

 

[IG.]

Ah... Tuf is here... LOL. The master of wrong assumptions... How did you conclude about straight line only? My response you are referring to was simply an answer to another question, related to ABS, and had little to do with my initial post.

Of course, tar snakes in turns only. And of course, wet tar snakes is better, but not for someone who hasn't experienced rear slides at all. Are you suggesting that someone who has never experienced rear slides go out in the wet, and try it? You have got to be kidding me! Are you going to take responsibility for what happens to them?

Tar snakes in cold weather present a great opportunity for an average rider (not a racer) to experience a gentle slide ('wiggle' for those who are 'man').

I did slide my front once for good half a second, years ago, on my Katana 600, on purpose, in the wet, on touring tires, on a remote country road. I kept braking harder and harder, and one time at the point when I already started releasing the brake, it happened - smooth as butter, no wiggle, regained traction quickly. I never tried since then. And that's where ABS would be very helpful.

Otherwise, on the street or track, I never had the front to slide on purpose, and a couple of times I lost the front - the bike went down. Various reasons though, and do not apply to this topic. What does happen often on the street, or on bumpy braking areas of the track that the front starts skipping, effectively telling you that you are at the limit.

So, Tuf, let me ask you a straight question... aside from recommending a track day/school, would you agree that going over tar snakes in cold weather (in turns!) is a safe way to introduce a rider to rear end slides (wiggles!)?

 

[Don Hardcastle]

I ride year around here as well.... as long as there is no snow and ice, I'm riding. Granted it doesn't get as nasty here as where IG lives, but 15 degrees is 15 degrees.

 

[Tufbusa]

Ah... Tuf is here... LOL. The master of wrong assumptions... How did you conclude about straight line only? My response you are referring to was simply an answer to another question, related to ABS, and had little to do with my initial post.

Of course, tar snakes in turns only. And of course, wet tar snakes is better, but not for someone who hasn't experienced rear slides at all. Are you suggesting that someone who has never experienced rear slides go out in the wet, and try it? You have got to be kidding me! Are you going to take responsibility for what happens to them?

Tar snakes in cold weather present a great opportunity for an average rider (not a racer) to experience a gentle slide ('wiggle' for those who are 'man').

I did slide my front once for good half a second, years ago, on my Katana 600, on purpose, in the wet, on touring tires, on a remote country road. I kept braking harder and harder, and one time at the point when I already started releasing the brake, it happened - smooth as butter, no wiggle, regained traction quickly. I never tried since then. And that's where ABS would be very helpful.

Otherwise, on the street or track, I never had the front to slide on purpose, and a couple of times I lost the front - the bike went down. Various reasons though, and do not apply to this topic. What does happen often on the street, or on bumpy braking areas of the track that the front starts skipping, effectively telling you that you are at the limit.

So, Tuf, let me ask you a straight question... aside from recommending a track day/school, would you agree that going over tar snakes in cold weather (in turns!) is a safe way to introduce a rider to rear end slides (wiggles!)?

First off IG, riding over tar snakes is not a slide. The tire moves maybe an inch or two and regains grip as soon as the contact patch touches dry pavement. AND, if the rear tire is wriggling around so is the front. If you are spinning the rear tire through a corner using the tar snakes to break the tire loose you will be leaving nice bright tire snakes. Take some photos to show us your handy work. Or, put a camera on your bike to show us mere mortals how to do the "Tar Snake Slide"? :-)

 

[IG.]

Tuf, I am not here to show a full blown power slide, nor can I do it at will, nor is it useless for 99.9% of riders. Somehow, you seem to be mentally locked into this strange mode that everyone rides on your level, and anything else is neither acceptable, nor tolerated.

What to you is trivial and uninteresting stuff, for other riders, even a slightest slide on a tar snake is something new. Before making my post, I tried to put myself into a position of someone who has never experienced rear tire stepping out even for a moment. Only after that, I realized that there was a value in posting about it. It is a valuable baby step, a small incremental improvement most any rider can take safely. That's where I am coming from. Use whatever terminology you want to reduce the value of what I am proposing - not a real slide, a wiggle, etc. Maybe the front moves, but I didn't notice. I felt it was mostly the rear.

You suggestions are silly at best. I am not going to stop in the middle of an entrance ramp to look for possible darkies, take pictures - for the only reason - to prove to you that the rear was sliding. I felt it and it is enough for me. Put camera on the bike... man, you are really disappointing me... with all the knowledge you have...

The great thing about what I am proposing is that a rider doesn't have to do anything special for it to happen. Just go into a turn, lean the bike at comfortable lean angle, go over tar snakes with steady gas ON, and it is likely to happen in a very gentle way. If it doesn't, do it again, but with a bit more speed/lean angle. It's that simple.

Can you suggest something besides taking a track school which would be useful to an average rider?