Cold weather presents an opportunity to slide safely

[fallenarch]

Another option? I have to ride - there is no other option. Above 30 isn't so bad - just a few layers and a neck warmer, winter gloves. 25 and below - that's 10 layers, and still the cold gets to you pretty quickly. The throat my freeze a bit because the stream of cold air sips through.

One day, I will get heated gear - then, it will be nice and cozy. Certainly have to scale back on aggressiveness, but there is plenty of traction to have fun. I would venture to say that at 40 dry there is more traction than at 70 wet. Keeping tire pressure at around 30 helps.

good to be on the bike. I learned snowboarding recently, and when it's so bad that snow is everywhere, I'd go snowboarding. It's almost the same - lean into turns, same forces in complete balance, and falling down is a lot less painful. LOL

Switching gears... at 300 lb, you are still debating with yourself on a turbo thingy?

Heated gear is not all it's craped up to be. It's hard to adjust and if its too hot you sweat which makes it even colder. Its also drafty. I finally figured it out - you have to wear a t-shirt over the heated gear to pull the heated jacket close to you and to keep drafts out. Gloves and footies are good though. I had the gear on at 25 degrees (went out to test the gear) and it was still a bit uncomfortable. At 35 or so it works pretty good. Truth is in clod weather the coldest parts are the neck and face, toes, and fingers. Maybe Gerbing needs to make a heated Baklava (spelled wrong).

I caught that fat boy reference too! I can lose 60 lbs for nothing and they say its 2 hp/lb so that would be like adding 120 horses

 

[skydivr]

Losing traction on the front and the back can be fun and actually put you around a slow turn faster, provided you know what you are doing. Tell you what, if you can point your Google at Isaac Newton and find anything he ever said about a "tire contact patch", I will pay for all your students, for the next track session, even if you tell them this BS about bigger tires giving better traction.

Now Jelly, the only guys I know that might think that was fun have a MotoGP race number on their leathers...but if you want to try that on your Busa to demonstrate, I would truly love to see the video....

A larger contact patch undoubtedly creates more surface friction, i.e. traction. In addition to several other factors such as: Tire compound, tire tread (or lack thereof), temperature, humidity, surface conditions, downward force on the tire, etc., etc. Now, does a larger tire create a larger contact patch, with ALL the other conditions identical? I suspect so depending on the profile of the tire.

We are all just having this debate and polevaulting over mouseturds because it's cold outside and we are bored. This Spring you guys REALLY ought to come down to Barber and do a trackday with us. Charlie's moving up the ladder as a coach, I'm a FNG Coach, and Tiller is faster than greased lightning....and if not Barber the new track at the Corvette plant is gonna be FUN.

IG, I'd actually like to follow you on video while you demonstrate your foot anchors out of curiosity.

 

[jellyrug]

Now Jelly, the only guys I know that might think that was fun have a MotoGP race number on their leathers...but if you want to try that on your Busa to demonstrate, I would truly love to see the video....

A larger contact patch undoubtedly creates more surface friction, i.e. traction. In addition to several other factors such as: Tire compound, tire tread (or lack thereof), temperature, humidity, surface conditions, downward force on the tire, etc., etc. Now, does a larger tire create a larger contact patch, with ALL the other conditions identical? I suspect so depending on the profile of the tire.

We are all just having this debate and polevaulting over mouseturds because it's cold outside and we are bored. This Spring you guys REALLY ought to come down to Barber and do a trackday with us. Charlie's moving up the ladder as a coach, I'm a FNG Coach, and Tiller is faster than greased lightning....and if not Barber the new track at the Corvette plant is gonna be FUN.

IG, I'd actually like to follow you on video while you demonstrate your foot anchors out of curiosity.

Just saying, I do it on my dirt bike all the time feet on the pegs and accidentally in the wet the Busa has done this a number of times, while maintaining pretty good control. I believe the first video of the Gen II launched way back by a magazine rider did this pretty severe on dry pavement. I don,t ride your kind of track any more and skills are proportional to the amount of time one puts in. Still, doing a drift on the Busa is not a big deal.

On the traction part, lets agree to disagree.

 

[Tufbusa]

Losing traction on the front and the back can be fun and actually put you around a slow turn faster, provided you know what you are doing. Tell you what, if you can point your Google at Isaac Newton and find anything he ever said about a "tire contact patch", I will pay for all your students, for the next track session, even if you tell them this BS about bigger tires giving better traction.

Okay Jellyman, we are on a motorcycle forum. One would think that everyone would assume we were talking two wheels not four. I have no idea what thread you cherry picked that quote from or who the post was pointed towards nor what the topic was? Apparently it was someone just like you quoting Isaac Newton. I will extend that offer to you with one exception, add "Motorcycle" to read "Motorcycle tire contact patch" so you know we are talking motorcycles and I will pay for your track day as well! So you drag up something Isaac Newton says about motorcycles and I will concede that you are crowned as "Google Man of the Century"!

 

[jellyrug]

Okay Jellyman, we are on a motorcycle forum. One would think that everyone would assume we were talking two wheels not four. I have no idea what thread you cherry picked that quote from or who the post was pointed towards nor what the topic was? Apparently it was someone just like you quoting Isaac Newton. I will extend that offer to you with one exception, add "Motorcycle" to read "Motorcycle tire contact patch" so you know we are talking motorcycles and I will pay for your track day as well! So you drag up something Isaac Newton says about motorcycles and I will concede that you are crowned as "Google Man of the Century"!

Tuf, the one thing I love about you is that competitive spirit. So, I'll make you a deal. I'll come and do a track session with you, provided you see how many times you can lap me riding your type of track and your type of bike. Then you come do a track session with me, riding my kind of bike and my type of track. The one who gets lapped the most loses and we post some video and results here. Are you in?

 

[IG.]

skydivr, no need to follow. I am a pretty docile rider and you won't be impressed. Rather, think of me as an engineer, and not a rider. Unfortunately, the only test rider available for initial testing was... just me.

As to the footwork when riding with foot anchors - like so many other things in riding, it is barely noticeable. That's why I went through a significant effort trying to capture the footwork during one lap around a racetrack (Thunderbolt at NJMP). I think I mentioned the video on the forum, and it's right there on the website. But if you missed it, here is the direct link:

Riding with Foot Anchors video (give it a minute or two to download)

A really good picture of one of the test riders shows foot anchors in action - again right on the website.

Unfortunately, I failed to capture my body position at the same time as I didn't use wide angle camera. All I captured during my test rides was my butt moving around, LOL

 

[fallenarch]

How come no one has mentioned that even if the rear has a larger contact patch it has to do double duty in driving the bike forward, so some of the traction is compromised even with very modest throttle settings. As for sliding a Busa this is one for my favorite youtubes!

BTW: Yes after 3000+ posts I still don't know how to enbed video!

 

[fallenarch]

Tuf, the one thing I love about you is that competitive spirit. So, I'll make you a deal. I'll come and do a track session with you, provided you see how many times you can lap me riding your type of track and your type of bike. Then you come do a track session with me, riding my kind of bike and my type of track. The one who gets lapped the most loses and we post some video and results here. Are you in?

Now this is getting good. I think it would be awesome to all meet at a track and work this out face to face! Nice thing about being a fat old black man is I can talk trash, get my arse handed to me, and keep talking. No one takes it seriously anyway! Man the trash talk thread would blow up! Jelly what is your type of track? If you are talking the street that's a bad idea - never ever race on the street.

 

[Tufbusa]

Tuf, this is another collection of general statements. While you do profess that you know how to apply all these inputs, you tend to keep it a secret. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that I barely understand how the bike responds. You didn't provide a single example with which you disagree, but you put out a really expanded statement how little I understand. Unfortunately, a very typical response. I am sure you are a much more proficient rider than I am, and I would love to learn from you, however you seem to be unable to articulate your knowledge in a way that I can comprehend it. Being defensive seems to be your theme.

I'll tell you what. I am concerned that Blrry is having another headache... LOL. I like a good argument, however, I follow a simple set of rules... always trying to be respectful and understand the other side, and trying to articulate my point as clearly and logically as I can. Having said that, there is no point to continue after any one of the following mutually exclusive conditions is met...

1. I learned something new which resolves the argument.
2. I uncovered a problem either with my side of the argument, or with the opposing side of the argument.
3. The other side consistently presents incoherent, outside the point arguments, jumping all over the place.

From my standpoint, condition 3 is true, and this discussion is no longer productive. I am perfectly comfortable if others think of me as slow, unaware, not understanding anything about riding, and full of silly ideas.

Peace out...

This thread was a Fallacy beginning with post #1

Please tell us one more time how you can romp tar snakes in near freezing temperatures at 40 degrees of lean, how the rear slides around and the front stays planted! I'm calling this like I see it, simply "MAGICAL"?

One more point I'd like to make before signing off on this thread and leaving you to your own demise. If you are honest in your statement that your front stays planted in that situation then you are so messed up that you truly can't feel what the front is doing. Feel is almost always related to body position which may very well be linked back to your foot anchor.

Ciao

 

[Tufbusa]

Now this is getting good. I think it would be awesome to all meet at a track and work this out face to face! Nice thing about being a fat old black man is I can talk trash, get my arse handed to me, and keep talking. No one takes it seriously anyway! Man the trash talk thread would blow up! Jelly what is your type of track? If you are talking the street that's a bad idea - never ever race on the street.

You are just a treat man! I love you Arch!

 

[fallenarch]

check this out. Boy is this guy misguided huh?

https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/random-thoughts/185942-merry-xmas-everybody.html

 

[IG.]

Tuf, when a person of your knowledge and experience says things that you do in post#69, I only feel even more convinced that this discussion is unproductive. As I mentioned, I am perfectly comfortable being perceived all the things that you are calling me. I got my "training" on WERA forum, and all you are saying is nothing more than gentle strokes compared to what I've heard.

I can go as far as saying that my thinking is so independent that the entire world may disagree with me, and I will not change my position unless I am presented with logical and coherent arguments which make sense. It is a talent and a curse at the same time, and I guess I have to live with that. I learned not to be angry at people, understanding it's just the way they are - mostly irrational. Although, I am also a human (I think), I try not to slide into an angry mode, and always try to keep an open mind. On the other hand, I am quick to change my mind if the right argument is presented, and have done so in the past.

I almost feel bad for you, understanding what's going on inside you, and almost want to help you. But, I don't think I can. This is something you have to figure out...


arch, I didn't get your post - is it supposed to be a comic relief? LOL. You know, so many times I could get a comic relief playing with your screen name. My major obstacle in doing so is that I don't quite understand the meaning of your screen name. Care to explain? I very vaguely remember that I already asked the same question in the past, and you probably already gave me an answer, but if this did happen, I completely forgot. Sorry about that. Just too much is going on.

Switching topics - back to heated gear... besides the points you mentioned, there is another issue which may be a showstopper for me. The wire which I understand usually is coming out from under a jacket has to be plugged in. This limits the body movements. Since I ride aggressively most of the time, and keep shifting my body, this might be a problem.

I thought about using chemical heating pads which react to air/wind. This might work really well on a jacket, but would be hard to deploy on hands/feet.

All the issues above is something that holds me back on heated gear, besides the expense of course.

 

[jellyrug]

How come no one has mentioned that even if the rear has a larger contact patch it has to do double duty in driving the bike forward, so some of the traction is compromised even with very modest throttle settings. As for sliding a Busa this is one for my favorite youtubes!

BTW: Yes after 3000+ posts I still don't know how to enbed video!

It's called performance in Practical Subject Matter versus Theoretical Subject Matter. Some have only the former, some have only the latter and you seem to have both.

 

[FlatlandBusa]

I'll preface this by saying that I do not consider myself a fast or a good rider when the roads get twisted up. I simply try to learn a little more each time out. However I rode dirt bikes in high school so I do know what a slide is.

Several of the clover leaf entrance ramps to the interstate around here have tar snakes on them running like the spokes on a wheel. From them I can tell you I hate tar snakes and that they get slippery when the temp gets over 90°F. However I have never experienced what I would consider a slide across them only the very unsettling feeling of the front and then the rear slipping out 1-3 inches as the bike goes across them. Depending on the speed I go across them this slip-slip movement can be extremely unsettling to the bike and is definitely not what I would consider a safe feeling. I can't imagine doing these same corners at the same speeds on a very cold day with the resultant cold tires without the relative safety of warm asphalt and tires to stop the slip once across the tar snake. With that said, my opinion is that intentionally initiating a slide on cold asphalt is asking for broken bones and plastic.

 

[Twobrothersbusa]

Tuf, when a person of your knowledge and experience says things that you do in post#69, I only feel even more convinced that this discussion is unproductive. As I mentioned, I am perfectly comfortable being perceived all the things that you are calling me. I got my "training" on WERA forum, and all you are saying is nothing more than gentle strokes compared to what I've heard.

I can go as far as saying that my thinking is so independent that the entire world may disagree with me, and I will not change my position unless I am presented with logical and coherent arguments which make sense. It is a talent and a curse at the same time, and I guess I have to live with that. I learned not to be angry at people, understanding it's just the way they are - mostly irrational. Although, I am also a human (I think), I try not to slide into an angry mode, and always try to keep an open mind. On the other hand, I am quick to change my mind if the right argument is presented, and have done so in the past.

I almost feel bad for you, understanding what's going on inside you, and almost want to help you. But, I don't think I can. This is something you have to figure out...

arch, I didn't get your post - is it supposed to be a comic relief? LOL. You know, so many times I could get a comic relief playing with your screen name. My major obstacle in doing so is that I don't quite understand the meaning of your screen name. Care to explain? I very vaguely remember that I already asked the same question in the past, and you probably already gave me an answer, but if this did happen, I completely forgot. Sorry about that. Just too much is going on.

Switching topics - back to heated gear... besides the points you mentioned, there is another issue which may be a showstopper for me. The wire which I understand usually is coming out from under a jacket has to be plugged in. This limits the body movements. Since I ride aggressively most of the time, and keep shifting my body, this might be a problem.

I thought about using chemical heating pads which react to air/wind. This might work really well on a jacket, but would be hard to deploy on hands/feet.

All the issues above is something that holds me back on heated gear, besides the expense of course.

Only on the heated gear...I bought heated gear this year and love it! If you are moving around so much that your heated gear wire is going to interfere...that would be called crashing. There is plenty of slack. You would not want to be riding like that in the cold that would require the gear anyway.

 

[kml]

my thinking is so independent that the entire world may disagree with me, and I will not change my position unless I am presented with logical and coherent arguments

Well, if the entire world is in disagreement with you, that only leaves the logical and rational arguments of God and space aliens to convince you.




cheers
ken

 

[IG.]

Good point kml, but in actuality the entire world is not in disagreement with me (and judging by the number of likes on the foot anchors Facebook page, most seem to be in agreement because most of those who come to the page actually like it). I am saying if this were the case I would still not change my position just because of that fact. Interestingly enough, as it relates to foot anchors, while most everyone on WERA forum bashed me like I am an alien which just landed, a few racers PM'ed me and had enough conviction to try foot anchors. It's a different story that eventually most of them fell off the radar. In relation to your statement, how do you know that God and aliens are not on my side?

Twobrothersbusa, I base my opinion on the range of movement I saw on my friend's setup. He has maybe 8" wire coming out of the bottom of his jacket, and maybe 8" wire coming from the bike's rear on the left side. With his slack, there is no way he can hang off freely on both sides. I do hang off most of the time, and while riding in the cold as well - just the bike's lean angle is not as extreme. You'd be surprised to know that at 25 degrees traction doesn't just disappear. I keep my pressures low, and my TPMS display tells me tire temperatures which go up noticeably as I ride. IIRC, at ambient temperature of 25 degrees, after some aggressive riding, air temperature inside the tire may reach 45-50 degrees. The reason I refer to the air inside because that's where the sensors are. So, the tire temperature will obviously be lower. Cruising along just doesn't do it for me, therefore I ride pretty aggressively. More track days usually cures this, but I am short on funds, and it's winter anyway.

Flatlandbusa, I am glad you described the types of tar snakes you have to cross. I probably should've clarified that those I have to deal with mostly stretch along the direction of the road at a slight angle, so I cross them at a very slight angle as well - riding close to being parallel to them. Those that you describe are probably more narrow and go across the road, and you are right those would cause wiggles. To clarify, there is nothing special I have to do in order to cause a small slide - simply ride over a tar snake (as opposed to avoiding it) and at a bit higher speed, while staying on the gas or slightly accelerating. If nothing happens, I ride faster and with a bit more lean angle the next time - that's it. And I hate to bring foot anchors into this, but all the bad sections of the roads I frequent, which I used to try avoiding when I was riding without foot anchors, I now go straight over those and enjoy observing how every wiggle and instability disappears as quickly as I notice them. There is a good reason why this is happening, but I don't want to turn this already tiring thread on a different subject into yet another FAT (Foot Anchors Thread). See, I have no problem poking at myself.

 

[fallenarch]

Tuf, when a person of your knowledge and experience says things that you do in post#69, I only feel even more convinced that this discussion is unproductive. As I mentioned, I am perfectly comfortable being perceived all the things that you are calling me. I got my "training" on WERA forum, and all you are saying is nothing more than gentle strokes compared to what I've heard.

I can go as far as saying that my thinking is so independent that the entire world may disagree with me, and I will not change my position unless I am presented with logical and coherent arguments which make sense. It is a talent and a curse at the same time, and I guess I have to live with that. I learned not to be angry at people, understanding it's just the way they are - mostly irrational. Although, I am also a human (I think), I try not to slide into an angry mode, and always try to keep an open mind. On the other hand, I am quick to change my mind if the right argument is presented, and have done so in the past.

I almost feel bad for you, understanding what's going on inside you, and almost want to help you. But, I don't think I can. This is something you have to figure out...


arch, I didn't get your post - is it supposed to be a comic relief? LOL. You know, so many times I could get a comic relief playing with your screen name. My major obstacle in doing so is that I don't quite understand the meaning of your screen name. Care to explain? I very vaguely remember that I already asked the same question in the past, and you probably already gave me an answer, but if this did happen, I completely forgot. Sorry about that. Just too much is going on.

Switching topics - back to heated gear... besides the points you mentioned, there is another issue which may be a showstopper for me. The wire which I understand usually is coming out from under a jacket has to be plugged in. This limits the body movements. Since I ride aggressively most of the time, and keep shifting my body, this might be a problem.

I thought about using chemical heating pads which react to air/wind. This might work really well on a jacket, but would be hard to deploy on hands/feet.

All the issues above is something that holds me back on heated gear, besides the expense of course.

Yes post #71 was comic relief. I have never had a problem with the cord on the heated gear but as Twobrothersbusa says why would you be moving that much in cold weather? My actual name is Crazyarch (crazy architect). At a Busa Bash a few years ago I dropped my busa right in front of everyone at the Phillips. So VaBusa changed it to Fallenarch because she enjoys other people's pain. The story of the bike repair form that episode is on the home page.

 

[IG.]

OK, got it - crazy fallen architect, LOL. Would've never guessed. I think this is perfect for many-many jokes to come... Now, hold on a second. I am more confused... You real last name is Crazyarch? It cannot be, can it? It's like the weather guy on one of our local stations - Storm Field - no kidding.

Like I said, I ride pretty aggressively on the street. So, at least to some degree I move around in every turn - by now it's just a habit. Not buying heated gear this season, so this is a potential problem, but only in the future. I am pretty hard core, and would just pack myself up, and go out in the cold... trying not to eat before the ride, if you know what I mean. LOL. OK, maybe not as much hard core, but want to ride so badly that willing to suffer in the cold for 15-30 min.

 

[fallenarch]

Well don't let the cord issue stop you from getting heated gear - it's not an issue. It has to be setup properly just like anything. Buy good stuff though, heated gear has to be good and weather resistant as you often use it in really bad conditions and you don't want shorts or tears in the liners. I have Gerbing and it is fantastic as far as design and build. Heated gear is not like a heater in a car. It will not make a 20 degree day feel like 70 degrees inside your pants (lol!). But it will take the danger out of extended 25 degree riding so the fingers and toes are not frozen (literally) and will keep you comfortable and alert. o 25 degrees feels more like 55 degrees.

I have had one bad crash when I was run off the road by a drunk driver who didn't even bother to stop afterwards. Got a broken shoulder in that one. Then I rode uneventfully for years and then 3 low speed drops in rapid succession (including the crash at the bash). Funny the major crash didn't even phase me. I was back on the same roads as soon as I got the insurance money (bike was totaled). But in that crash I made some really good instinctive decisions that saved my life. The low speed stuff really shook me up because they were all stupid pilot errors; so for awhile I didn't trust myself. Got over that mental hurdle and been event free since.

I ride pretty aggressively on the street too (in certain areas). I lean into every turn (one cheek off the seat) because my philosophy is to come into the turn with body position as if I were going to drag my knee and then I back off if I don't need that level of control. I would rather be ready to tighten my radius than need to and not be ready. But you don't want to get too dramatic with the hanging off the bike because you need a lot of speed to balance yourself hanging way off the bike's CG and that's not a good thing on the street where you may have to readjust your position in reaction to something at any moment.