End the agrument of TRE

I understand your analogies with the 14, but depening on how the ecu is setup it might work completely different, the gps might work in a similar fashion as the busa but without looking at code we would have no idea.
I do not quite understand your reasoning for removing sensors and for what purpose, the sensors are there for the ecu to properly map itself out in timing/fuel tables, I have seen people do simialr things to cars, fooling IAT and ECT sensors and IMHO that is very dangerous, unless like most vehicles I work on they have knock sensors so in any case it will detect knock and reduce timing. From what i know these bikes do not have that and I would not recommend fiddling with any temp/baro sensors as they are vital for proper operation of the ecu calibration.
The reason i think the bike defaults to 6th gear map when gps signal is interrupted would be because it will have the least agressive timing curve and also the richest fuel (if related to gear) due to less load and ram air taken into consideration to make it richer.
Been busy at work so i have not had a chance to scope out a scan tool nor ecu but it is in the works.
 
No flaming me but here’s an example on the TRE subject…

Food for thought….

When I purchased my ’01 the guy had added a G-pack TRE, D&D exhaust (not the best performing but sounds awesome), and a PCII. Bike ran “ok†but the map wasn’t right. You could “get it†to stand up but mostly it took clutching it. I remapped the bike and made a world of difference. Bike was clocked to almost 200 mph so I was ok with that. Bike still sputtered just a little on the bottom end (idle to 3000) and still wasn’t as strong as my other Busa but could hold its own. I concentrated more on suspension set-up for handling at that point.

Fast forward to a month ago. I performed the airbox mod, added the short velocity stacks, REMOVED the TRE (convinced by JC explaining to me before my own research), sync’d the throttle bodies, adjusted the TPS, and re-mapped the PCII. How’s it run now without the TRE and properly mapped? First thing you’ll notice is its smooth as silk with no sputter off idle to rev-limiter. Lay into the throttle hard and it just spins the Pilot Powers through 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Roll into the throttle slower and it brings the bike up all the way through 3rd. All of this is with stock 17/40 gearing. I haven’t added JC’s modded GPS yet but I’m more concentrating on honing my riding skills through the twisties and I don’t need 186+ mph for that.

Bottom line, I proved to myself that my bike, without a TRE, with TB’s sync’d and TPS adjusted, and even an old PCII that’s mapped right makes more power than I can even put to the ground…
 
Just get the GPS mod with an extended ECU and spray through 6th all the way to 11,100rpm...
beerchug.gif
 
Toona, If the tre chases the default code 6 and the clutch mod also chases whatever (other) code, don't you see you are now running in the 6th default mode. Show me the damage after 6 years having the tre in play? See what I'm getting at. The two sets in the ECU (ecu reading the sensor settings, or the ecu defaulting to it's own backup setting); neither setting has damaged the bike.
My deeper 'digital' settings did nothing to my engine. I scoped the cylinder walls thru the spark plug holes. Zero damage, and without the spark knock. I did not see aluminum flying off the piston dome.
If you think about it, a bike's (computer, remember) manual mentions nothing about the fault code causing damage to the engine if the sensor drops into a default code. There is a self diagnosing dash reading, but the bike does not stop running. The sensor could drop dead at any part of the world. Who knows where these bikes are? Computre bikes are all over the world in all environments. There are, "trees" all over the world too. Show me the engine failures. Show me the tre (the default code) cleaning up the problem all over the world.

Say for example, I build an ECU in two stages. First stage: I use a ruler as the fuel level. 1 inch is ideal fuel delivery at all times; give or take on either side. This is the sensor delivery, (variable voltage). For arguments sake, say 1/2 in is destruction lean, and an 1 and 1/2 is cylinder wash down/s-plug wet rich.
The sensor's rheostat at the TPS, or the wafer diaphragm at the atmospheric sensor, or the water temp variable cooling voltage; drags the resistance thru the throttle response. It's manageable, but you know there is improvements to be made. Does not the tre address a few of these complaints, (default 6)?
My ECU needs a backup I'm building. Second Stage: So, I'm going to the 1inch scale, set an 0 at a safe lean side of the ideal setting, and toggle a 1 at the safe rich setting. Now I have a digital off/on (rich/lean) that takes over. If a sensor setting says warm air, my backup ECU will trigger an 0 (lean). If the next 4 crank cycle sucks a cold gulp of air, the sensor will tell the ECU to trigger the 1 for rich.
My ECU concept is how I see the, 'Digital' inside the ECU work. They will now set an, on-off "digitized" fuel delivery within the confines of engine preservation.

Therefore, I disagree, Toona, that the engine will not expire at the 6 default mode, (hasn't yet) or if you chase the other 'transistorized' settings in the Busa's ECU. This is a computer bike. I left the industry in 1999 when the Busa first came out. I serviced a few of these bikes. I know how powerful they are. If I owned one, came here at this website, or same time the tre came out for the Busa, I'd be doing the same, "transistorized deep ECU settings" to the Busa like I've done to the 14's digitized DFI settings. Fast forward me 7 years as if I bought a Busa the first time it came out in '99. I see no controversy about the tre. I see how the tre explained itself; by simply chasing a default code you can read in a shop manual. I hear the car talk well and clear, Toona. I'm understanding closed loop is a whole different animal. With the 02, you're stuck, (speaking stock wise). Open loop, you have a little leeway.
Default 6 has to compensate for WOT in 6th as well as idle. It works in both modes. I wish I knew what the factory knows, but all I did was look up the word, 'digital' and came up with my own, (6 gear map) kind of theory that makes sense to me.

http://www.google.com/search?....torized

http://www.google.com/search?....digital
 
What do you mean by default code 6? Running in the 6th gear map? If so i never stated that any damage would occur by doing that as I have a feeling that table would be less agressive than a 1st or 2nd gear map.
Usually ecu's will have super safe maps to resort to if a sensor fails, so the vehicle can still be driven during the failure. On GM vehicles for example, if the MAF fails, it will go into a speed density mode and has a whole separate strategy for that mode, which is being used more and more when you want to make 800plus hp on stock engine management.
So i never said it would damage the motor, it would not make it run optimal but not damage it.
Also I would not recommend making comparisons to your 14 as it is a brand new bike and comparing the ecu from it to the busa is like comparing a pc with a 386 processor running windows98 to a pc with a Pentium 4 processor running windows XP, there has been HUGE advancements in the ecu industry between those two bikes and comparing them and their calibration layout is kind of far fetched, the basics are the same but especially faults and default saftey strategies are prolly far more advanced in the 14 than in the busa.
 
(2busa @ Dec. 05 2006,15:22) Toona, If the tre chases the default code 6 and the clutch mod also chases whatever (other) code, don't you see you are now running in the 6th default mode. Show me the damage after 6 years having the tre in play? See what I'm getting at. The two sets in the ECU (ecu reading the sensor settings, or the ecu defaulting to it's own backup setting); neither setting has damaged the bike.
My deeper 'digital' settings did nothing  to my engine. I scoped the cylinder walls thru the spark plug holes. Zero damage, and without the spark knock. I did not see aluminum flying off the piston dome.
If you think about it, a bike's (computer, remember) manual mentions nothing about the fault code causing damage to the engine if the sensor drops into a default code. There is a self diagnosing dash reading, but the bike does not stop running. The sensor could drop dead at any part of the world. Who knows where these bikes are? Computre bikes are all over the world in all environments. There are, "trees" all over the world too. Show me the engine failures. Show me the tre (the default code) cleaning up the problem all over the world.

Say for example, I build an ECU in two stages. First stage: I use a ruler as the fuel level. 1 inch is ideal fuel delivery at all times; give or take on either side. This is the sensor delivery, (variable voltage). For arguments sake, say 1/2 in is destruction lean, and an 1 and 1/2 is cylinder wash down/s-plug wet rich.
The sensor's rheostat at the TPS, or the wafer diaphragm at the atmospheric sensor, or the water temp variable cooling voltage; drags the resistance thru the throttle response. It's manageable, but you know there is improvements to be made. Does not the tre address a few of these complaints, (default 6)?
My ECU needs a backup I'm building. Second Stage: So, I'm going to the 1inch scale, set an 0 at a safe lean side of the ideal setting, and toggle a 1 at the safe rich setting. Now I have a digital off/on (rich/lean) that takes over. If a sensor setting says warm air, my backup ECU will trigger an 0 (lean). If the next 4 crank cycle sucks a cold gulp of air, the sensor will tell the ECU to trigger the 1 for rich.
My ECU concept is how I see the, 'Digital' inside the ECU work. They will now set an, on-off "digitized" fuel delivery within the confines of engine preservation.

Therefore, I disagree, Toona, that the engine will not expire at the 6 default mode, (hasn't yet) or if you chase the other 'transistorized' settings in the Busa's ECU. This is a computer bike. I left the industry in 1999 when the Busa first came out. I serviced a few of these bikes. I know how powerful they are. If I owned one, came here at this website, or same time the tre came out for the Busa, I'd be doing the same, "transistorized deep ECU settings" to the Busa like I've done to the 14's digitized DFI settings. Fast forward me 7 years as if I bought a Busa the first time it came out in '99. I see no controversy about the tre. I see how the tre explained itself; by simply chasing a default code you can read in a shop manual. I hear the car talk well and clear, Toona. I'm understanding closed loop is a whole different animal. With the 02, you're stuck, (speaking stock wise). Open loop, you have a little leeway.
Default 6 has to compensate for WOT in 6th as well as idle. It works in both modes. I wish I knew what the factory knows, but all I did was look up the word, 'digital' and came up with my own, (6 gear map) kind of theory that makes sense to me.

http://www.google.com/search?....torized  

http://www.google.com/search?....digital
Click to expand...
Damn 2busa, reading your post makes my head spin.

You really don't understand what we are talking about do you?

You talk about a bike "running fine any where on the globe" and "I've scoped my cylinders and haven't seen any damage from running lean".

YES, YOU ARE CORRECT.

Do you understand that it takes a serious lean condition to damage a motor? Just because you have no motor damage doesn't mean that a little tuning can't yield another 7-8 horsepower.

Lets look at it another way. I have a LT1 vette that will run great anywhere on the globe. Now if the engineers designed this fuel injected motor to run at 10 degrees below as well as 120 in the desert, that's great. If you told those same engineers to design the same motor but it only has to run between 25-105 degrees, could they make it more efficent? Would they still run hot coolant thru the throttle body to keep it from iceing over? Thus heating the intake charge and robbing you of power. Or would they still add the oil cooler if the car would never see desert heat?

It's the same with the busa, it will run great (90 percent) any where on the "globe" as you say. But can I make it run better in my own backyard? YES I CAN!

Mikuni makes makes the fuel system for both zx14 and busa's. In your mind that means that Mikuni shares the same technology with both companies.
Suzuki and Kawi TELL Mikuni how much they will spend and what they want. My guess is the busa system hasn't changed in 6 years and the zx14 has a newer system.

You stated in a previous post that "BMW with a closed loop system can't compare to the busa's and zx14's with an open loop system"
You don't understand the German mindset!
BMW would rather build a bike that does 150mph while your sitting upright with heated grips and a navagation system, not to memtion ABS, traction control, electronic suspension and a host of other goodies. BMW will never build a bike that has you hunched over the gas tank just to hit 300kph. To say they are slow because of their "closed loop system" is just ludacris.

newbie.gif
 
750, Ludicrous? I'm thinking in simple terms. Question why after 7 years in development, the high performance bikes are still designed in open loop. I can only conclude there is a performance advantage.

Toona, Like win98, XP will use the same start up software as if you wiped the drive, installed the 98 floppy to begin loading the .exe files. I know they both (XP/98) share these files to begin loading the OS. That analogy is exactly what you mentioned with the MAF default backup in the ECU. Same basic ECU, but advanced... agreed.

Now, all you have to conclude, is following the tre installation defaulting to the internal (ECU) backup settings. All you have to conclude is to see the tre sets an out-of-spec voltage value and defaults to the ECU backup; each and ever time an afterkmarket unit is installed in between the Busa's wire harness.
Note, after 7 years with the tre installed, there have been all types of tuning done to a variety of Busa's, and I have yet to hear a bike fail because of a "lean condition" let alone a Suzuki ECU recall, stating the values were too dangerous if the backup modes were set.
Think this is too ludicrous as well?
 
There is no inherent advantage running a complete open loop system vs. a closed loop system, only if you have major mods and the 02's sensor location is compromised, open loop is much easier to create than a closed loop system, plus cheaper hardware and engineering wise, that would be my take on why they keep it open loop.
Now, I dont think i ever said running a default map(backup) would harm the engine, that would defeat the whole purpose of a default map, a default map is generally set up ultra safe since it does not have a particular sensor to rely on.
My whole argument on this tread is the reduced performance from using TRE which would default a predicted map for supposedly 5th gear and thus reduce performance for the gears this map was not designed for.
 
My testing experience proves to me, the backup mode is the hotter tune. When the tre is installed, the voltage value defaults to the digital/transistorized value and here is where the smooth running (rich) change is experienced. That's why JC or whoever is chasing the clutch mod idea at the GPG behind the clutch basket is going to default to the backup either way.
If you unplug the GPS, won't you achieve the same result? Anyone ever try something this simple?

http://www.google.com/search?....+analog
 
(2busa @ Dec. 10 2006,11:31) 750, Ludicrous? I'm thinking in simple terms. Question why after 7 years in development, the high performance bikes are still designed in open loop. I can only conclude there is a performance advantage.

This is where your wrong, You never consider the economics of the builder. It's all about the BOTTOM LINE! Open loop is cheaper to build. Look, this isn't rocket science, 1300cc in a 560lb bike will haul ass.

Toona, Like win98, XP will use the same start up software as if you wiped the drive, installed the 98 floppy to begin loading the .exe files. I know they both (XP/98) share these files to begin loading the OS. That analogy is exactly what you mentioned with the MAF default backup in the ECU. Same basic ECU, but advanced... agreed.

Now, all you have to conclude, is following the tre installation defaulting to the internal (ECU) backup settings. All you have to conclude is to see the tre sets an out-of-spec voltage value and defaults to the ECU backup; each and ever time an afterkmarket unit is installed in between the Busa's wire harness.
Note, after 7 years with the tre installed, there have been all types of tuning done to a variety of Busa's, and I have yet to hear a bike fail because of a "lean condition" let alone a Suzuki ECU recall, stating the values were too dangerous if the backup modes were set.
Think this is too ludicrous as well?

Who ever stated that busa's had a problem with "lean condition"?

If by installing a TRE it just puts the ecm in back up mode, how do you explain the bike running past 186 in 6th gear?
Click to expand...
read above
 
(2busa @ Dec. 11 2006,11:05) My testing experience proves to me, the backup mode is the hotter tune. When the tre is installed, the voltage value defaults to the digital/transistorized value and here is where the smooth running (rich) change is experienced. That's why JC or whoever is chasing the clutch mod idea at the GPG behind the clutch basket is going to default to the backup either way.
If you unplug the GPS, won't you achieve the same result? Anyone ever try something this simple?
Click to expand...
Testing experience on the ZX14 or the BUSA? Please clarify.

Unplugging the GPS on a BUSA will put it in the 6th gear tune in all gears.

1) You won't be able to let it engine with the sidestand down, even in neutral.
2) The engine will only rev to 10,200 rpm
 
Professor, Of course my testing is with the 14. Look, let's put ourselves in a multi-franchised dealership. We are specialists in each brand. Work on one bike and basically you've worked on all of the big 4.
6th gear is using under 1 volt = Busa(0.3)/14(0.7). Note the hot-rod signal digi/transisi is under 1 volt. You also know with the single digit, ignition advance is in play as well.
Professor, no matter what ohm diode you solder in-line to a computer bike, your value will disrupt the 2nd (4 cycles of 8 rotations) "telemetry input rotation" and default to a code = showing the 6 in the dash ~ means a code (like, Check Engine Light on a car).

Professor, Once you see the the 6 lock on the dash, did not your little "tre try" (using your own resistor) on the GPS wire, default to the ECU "backup"... Yes or no.

I will now walk myself thru the, 10.2K rev test. I will first start and idle the Busa. I will now disconnect the GPS. I'm leaving the shop to whack the throttle up thru the gears.
I will now shut the bike down by tuning the key off. I'm thinking the one, "key cycle" will default to locking back in the 10.2K rev limit. I am returning to the shop going thru the gears to quantify; if I am in an unlimited rev range, or the ECU defaulted to re-inducing the rev limiter.

Do you see the logical steps used to unlock the rev limiter? No tre,g-spot (whatever it's called), no super tre (or whatever it's called), I will find the better running performance mode in the backup codes, just like these aftermarket units default to.
The "End the argument of TRE" is so crystal clear in my mind, I have to screw with 750's head, because he can't recognize the simplicity of the ECU always defaulting to the backup code. Toona is hitting on all cylinders, but toona, don't you see the ECU heading each time to the locked 6 when someone installs a foreign ohm resistance or clutch fix, trying to fool the ECU?

I want to ask JC if he ever tried the road-test steps above; before this elaborate clutch fix. Well, JC?

I'm waiting for the 14 Busa (I'm guessing). If that bike blows the ZX14 away, I'll be on a Busa and dig right into the ECU for as many code sets the Busa has. Just think if the Busa shares the same ECU as the ZX.
Me all stock and coded. You, piped and Pcom'd. I'll be sneaking up on your, 'analog'd, rich running, tre'd, no bottom end pipe'd ass... and walk away from you. You watch. That's how I'll tune my new (coming mid-yr, guessing again) Busa.
 
(2busa @ Dec. 12 2006,13:07) 6th gear is using under 1 volt = Busa(0.3)/14(0.7). Note the hot-rod signal digi/transisi is under 1 volt. You also know with the single digit, ignition advance is in play as well.
Click to expand...
So you are looking at the voltage inside the ECU that is caluculated instead of measured. The test point is the wire going into the ecu.

But anyhow, you say .3 on the busa is the same as the 14s .7

The busa will have .3 dropped internally in 6th. But guess what. It has .64 dropped in 5th .64 is closer to .7 so with you logic which is it.
Regardless you are still going down the wrong path.
 
(2busa @ Dec. 12 2006,13:07) Professor, no matter what ohm diode you solder in-line to a computer bike, your value will disrupt the 2nd (4 cycles of 8 rotations) "telemetry input rotation" and default to a code = showing the 6 in the dash ~ means a code (like, Check Engine Light on a car).
Click to expand...
Where did a diode come into this? Ohms? Do you know the difference between a diode and a resistor? A resister is measured in ohms. A diode is not. As said before, 6 resistors are presented to the ECU, 1 for each gear. If you put a resistor on the circuit the bike will think it is in that gear. No code, no back up, it will just think it is in this gear.
 
(2busa @ Dec. 12 2006,13:07) Professor, Once you see the the 6 lock on the dash, did not your little "tre try" (using your own resistor) on the GPS wire, default to the ECU "backup"... Yes or no.
Click to expand...
6 lock on the dash? On a hayabusa. WTF

Again the TRE does not put the ECU in backup.

I guess no is what you are looking for here. NO, the TRE or putting a 6.8k ohm RESISTOR does not put the EUC in backup.
 
(2busa @ Dec. 12 2006,13:07) I want to ask JC if he ever tried the road-test steps above; before this elaborate clutch fix. Well, JC?
Click to expand...
Elaborate clutch fix?

The mod has nothing at all to do to the clutch. It is the GEAR POSISTION SENSOR that is modified.

Yes, it is physically located behind the clutch basket. You have to remove the clutch assembly to get to it. But is has nothing to do with the clutch.
You have to remove the right lower fairing as well so you might as well call it a right lower fairing fix with your logic
 
(2busa @ Dec. 12 2006,13:07) I'm waiting for the 14 Busa (I'm guessing). If that bike blows the ZX14 away, I'll be on a Busa and dig right into the ECU for as many code sets the Busa has. Just think if the Busa shares the same ECU as the ZX.
Me all stock and coded. You, piped and Pcom'd. I'll be sneaking up on your, 'analog'd, rich running, tre'd, no bottom end pipe'd ass... and walk away from you. You watch. That's how I'll tune my new (coming mid-yr, guessing again) Busa.
Click to expand...
First, I have no intention of ever running a TRE

2nd, If you are tuning your new Busa, I don't think I have anything to worry about.
jump9.gif
 
Yes, Diode. Show me a resistor bleeding back on the other 5 'resistors' and I'll show you the ECU fly into; Backup Mode!
http://www.google.com/search?....=Search

The GPS mod behind the clutch; is a waste of time. My point is the GPS wires, not chasing the GPS unit behind the clutch. You want the same effect as the tre or eliminate the rev limiter, you disconnect the wire harness to trigger the ECU's backup.
JC has yet to answer the simple diagnostic question; and that question is: Can you achieve the same results by simply disconnecting the GPS wire harness?
Come on Johnny. You can shell it out, but can't take the abuse yourself? I'm not here to abuse anyone. I'm enjoying this; watching the tre confusion.

Because I kept improving the tune of the computer bike by chasing the backup codes, I could literally walk away from piped up 1000 Suzuki's on my stock bike. You have no clue what is waiting for you in the ECU backup. You'll just have to experiment to disprove me. I've done the experiments. Count 5 codes in backup, and 2 left out that were not implemented. Now, it might be the Suzuki I will "digitize" for tuning purposes.
I had the last laugh with the 14, and I'll be laughing again, if the Busa is quicker. Wake up!
 
(2busa @ Dec. 13 2006,11:08) JC has yet to answer the simple diagnostic question; and that question is: Can you achieve the same results by simply disconnecting the GPS wire harness?
Come on Johnny. You can shell it out, but can't take the abuse yourself?
Click to expand...
JC has yet to answer the simple diagnostic question; and that question is: Can you achieve the same results by simply disconnecting the GPS wire harness? [/Quote]


Johnny answered the question some time ago. He told you that if you disconnected the GPS the engine would not rev past 10,200 rpm.


Come on Johnny. You can shell it out, but can't take the abuse yourself?
[/Quote]

We no longer have a "smack shack". This type of comment will not be tolerated on this board. PM coming to you.
 
JC my have answered, but how through was the test before a clutch breakdown. Remember, any sensor or sensor wire mod, is an automatic signal to start spitting codes out of the ECU.

The tre will spit a code, does it not? Is that a code c31 = 6 gear fail-safe. Will the clutch mod, eventually spit a code?

All I ever did, was question why anyone would install a tre, or mod a sensor (no matter how deep inside the engine) when the whole, 'means to an end' is triggering the ECU's fail-safe? That's right, it triggers the fail-safe...Period.
Note: Wiring/coupler, 0.60 v 3sec. = fail-safe anyway! Loan me a Busa. You test ride. I'll just disconnect and key-cycle until I know if the 10.2k will set once or permanent:
1. Engine off. Disconnect GPS. Test ride.
2. Engine running. Dis the GP.T-Ride.
3. Engine turned off/never re-connected. Key on. T-ride.
4. Finish all variable combinations to learn idiosyncrasy of ECU on/off memory modes.

Every one has access to this book; Yet, no one sees the book countering your every move with a code.

Did you download the (dealer level) ECU for codes? Pg. 4-33.
 
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