timing retarder question

[2busa]

(tinbender0 @ Nov. 08 2006,19:37) And anoher thing, there has been a question on here that I have never seen answered. What happens with the" TRE" in conjuction with the Power Commander III? Does the PCIII override your "code spit" and use the PCIII MAP exclusively? Or are you running code spit

Tin, Once the code is set by either the tre or a simple disconnect of the sensor, you now rely on the digitally set code for the fuel trim in the ecu. That's without the
pcom installed, and also if the sensor is A/F related to calculate the fuel quantity.

The tre set a code, so you are protected from damage by using the backup the ECU created. This will still not affect the ignition timing if you install a pcom, because if the code(s) were part of the ignition, it will not recognize the extra fuel the pcom delivered. The timing would change if both the ECU and pcom worked together. But they don't. The ECU has no clue the pcom is hooked up.

The pcom sees the injector turn ( ) hot with current, and the pcom has a short window to hold the injector open long enough to add the touch extra spray. The pcom does not "override" any codes. It has to wait for the current to begin in the injector pulse.

Again, the cry for the map should begin to make sense, because the bike will only draw so much air into the cylinder chamber. The ECU has that variable (air) pre-designed for max efficiency. Adding more fuel to an ideal FI system (pipe'd even) is where you start to chase HP or someone's leaner map. It is a fine line to get the trim right.

 

[Johnnycheese]

(speed750 @ Nov. 08 2006,22:37)

(Johnnycheese @ Oct. 22 2006,15:04)

(Jayabusa01 @ Oct. 22 2006,17:01)

again prove it has this restriction
since 1999 no one has proved it!

Cycle world September 06 page 43

 "While the Hayabusa has been hobbled in the bottom two gears all along, this has gone largely unnoticed since the engine still provides an abundance of bottom end punch."
 "The Busa resulted in 83 ft pounds of torque at 4,000rpm in third but dropped to 77 ft pounds in second."

This is right out of cycle world, I believe it's proof enough.

wow so if they are correct then full advance timing is incorrect in all the service manuals.
here is a clue for you ....
you make more torque in 6th than 5th
you make more torque in 5th than 4th
you make more torque in 4th than 3rd

yep another fool who believes what they read

 

[EtrnlSoldier]

(Johnnycheese @ Nov. 16 2006,20:18)

(speed750 @ Nov. 08 2006,22:37)

(Johnnycheese @ Oct. 22 2006,15:04)

(Jayabusa01 @ Oct. 22 2006,17:01)

again prove it has this restriction
since 1999 no one has proved it!

Cycle world September 06 page 43

"While the Hayabusa has been hobbled in the bottom two gears all along, this has gone largely unnoticed since the engine still provides an abundance of bottom end punch."
"The Busa resulted in 83 ft pounds of torque at 4,000rpm in third but dropped to 77 ft pounds in second."

This is right out of cycle world, I believe it's proof enough.

wow so if they are correct then full advance timing is incorrect in all the service manuals.
here is a clue for you ....
you make more torque in 6th than 5th
you make more torque in 5th than 4th
you make more torque in 4th than 3rd

yep another fool who believes what they read

Feel free to answer my question over on SH.org Johnny. I see that you've found someone else with a viable question that you've decided to call names instead of answering with all of your wisdom.

If your GPS mod is the end all answer and you are the ultimate motorcycle tuner, then you should be able to answer this. What is it exactly that your GPS mod does, that a TRE does not? What makes it worthwhile for me to have to take off my body work and disassemble my clutch basket, just to install/uninstall your mod, as opposed to just taking a minute and a half to lift the tank and plug in a TRE, which apparently does the same thing? If the timing retard thing is baloney, as you claim, and the only gain felt when installing a TRE is due to mapping then, even when your GPS mod is installed, the bike is still going to have to be re-mapped to tap into that hidden low end grunt, as it leaves the stock maps intact. Apparently the gains actually felt by the TRE are due to fifth gear mapping being better than the stock 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear maps. So, what justifies all of the ridiculous extra effort of paying for and installing your mod over a simple TRE? Please inform us. I humbly asked you this same question over on SH.org about 2 1/2 weeks ago, and you have as yet failed to answer me.

Oh and, before you insult me like I've seen you do many others on at least 3 web sites, be warned that I absolutely LOVE to insult back when provoked.

Now I humbly await your explanation and sales pitch. Make it good enough and I may even buy one of your GPS mods myself.

 

[Johnnycheese]

I did many times over do a search and you will find it

 

[EtrnlSoldier]

(Johnnycheese @ Nov. 18 2006,04:42) I did many times over do a search and you will find it

What you did was call me lazy, apparently, for not wanting to spend a few hours taking my bike apart when it doesn't seem to be necessary. You explained that putting a tre in will cause the bike to use the fifth gear map in all gears, thus making it run rich down low. We all already knew that. My bike, like most around here, does indeed have a custom map, done with the tre in place. Therefore, it also must logically have a PCIII, which it does. Now, considering a bike with a PCIII, and the ability to have it custom mapped, what would make your mod better than the tre after said mapping?

*edit* I see that you finally did explain it in one of the posts that you responded to, after calling me lazy. Way to insult potential customers, Mr. Cheese, for asking clarifying questions. But, like I said, I've watched you do it to hundreds of others over the years. Isn't the internet great?

 

[2busa]

Johnny, say it isn't so! Why don't you tell your customers the truth. Your mod or the tre mod can be accomplished by simply disconnecting the GPS.

You know damn well the ECU reads 3 value settings (1. Out of spec range, 2. Short to ground, 3. Simple disconnect) before the ECU takes over the ignition/quantity spray, (backup).

That is 3 combinations (tre (value = ground), jonny-mod = ground, or a disconnect, (GPS switch) will still trigger the computer to default into a 'backup mode' = free mod - disconnect switch.

To make someone go thru clutch disassembly for a mod that takes a simple disconnect, or a direct short to the GPS like the tre does, is more of a disservice to a customer; Unless you don't understand what the ECU does when the voltage values are spiked out of range, I can understand your mistake chasing the clutch mod for the same thing = Tthe long way around to grounding the GPS.

Soldier, there is no map in the ECU. The sensor positions determine fuel quantity spray and ign Adv/Retrd settings. The ECU determines the quantity spray in a 'backup' ignition/spray configuration. This has nothing to do with the Pcom mapping. You could literally use the map for the tre, the cheesy mod, or my mod (what are you stupid? disconnect the GPS, silly)... They all accomplish (trigger) the same, EXACT backup mode in the ECU!

Show me in the owner;s or shop manual where it says not to run the bike if there is an ECU having a code set caused by a faulty sensor. The bike is still functional, and will run forever in backup.

 

[Professor]

2busa,

The mod JC does to the GPS sensor changes it to send gear positions 1-2-3-4-5-5 to the ECU instead of positions 1-2-3-4-5-6. This does not send a fault to the ECU send it to “backup modeâ€￾. If you will open your Service Manual to page 4-31, it will show what sensors send it to “Fail-Safeâ€￾ (the mode I believe you keep referring to backup mode). Disconnecting the GPS sensor as you describe will result in a C31 fault code. Refer to page 4-47. I’m sure disconnecting or grounding the Gear Position Sensor will result in telling the ECU to go to a single gear. It may even be the richer position of 5 or 6 who knows or cares for that matter. It is not doing the same as the GPS mod that JC and many other are doing.

Do you even have a copy of the Service Manual you keep referring to?

If not, why don’t you download a copy… Look on page 4-14. You will find refernce to the independent program MAPS that are programmed in the ROM of the ECU. This is the MAP you are telling Soldier does not exist.

 

[Johnnycheese]

Thank you Professor. you are correct, plus if you did unplug it the bike would never rev pass 10,200 period.

 

[Johnnycheese]

Etnrlsoldier, you really need to learn to read, like I said if you have a TRE and a custom map, made in 4th gear the bike would not richen up for 5-6th. if made in 5th the map would be rich by 10% most tuners forget about this and then you would be too rich in 1-4. either way it is not what one would want.
what is not to understand?

???

 

[2busa]

Professor, I believe you are understanding what you can and cannot do when you mention "fail-Safe" as being the same as 'backup.' The language is the same as saying upper crown or upper tree for the front end steering.
No matter what JC and others are doing, you will always find the hot performance in the fail-safe (backup). Note how the final means to the end is to trigger (harvest) the fail-safe code.

There is a way around the 10k rev limit as you found out. You are still in an 8 cycle fire mode no matter what. I can see you are trapped in this "Map" mentality. Maps are on/off switches waiting to

Professor quote: "It may even be the richer position of 5 or 6 who knows or cares for that matter. It is not doing the same as the GPS mod that JC and many other are doing."
Professor, what you refuse to see, is the how the fuel quantity is calculated.
Do you understand how the bike receives the correct spray, even when the ECU is reading the one gear (fail-safe) electrical value. There is a computable fuel delivery to the next cylinder... neither rich or lean, but within the electrical value of a near perfect spray.

 

[EtrnlSoldier]

(Johnnycheese @ Nov. 20 2006,04:10) Etnrlsoldier, you really need to learn to read, like I said if you have a TRE and a custom map, made in 4th gear the bike would not richen up for 5-6th. if made in 5th the map would be rich by 10% most tuners forget about this and then you would be too rich in 1-4. either way it is not what one would want.
what is not to understand?

???

Yep, there's ole JC with the next greatest jab. I can't read now it seems.

I can read just fine and yes, you finally explained it, as I alluded to in my *edit* which was written before you typed your response. Perhaps it is you who needs to learn to read. Whether it matters all that much and whether or not the bike is overly and damagingly rich because of being tuned with a tre in, well, is quite frankly, a matter of whether we should all just take your word for it or not. Aren't you the guy who always calls people fools for believing everything that they read? I would wager that, the tre having been around for a very long time that there are quite a few bikes tuned with one in that are getting great results. Like mine.

As far as the way you always talk down to people, well, I've seen pictures of you and your garage shop. You really have no business insulting anyone. Your wife probably got tired of your arrogance too. Maybe someday you'll learn to be a bit nicer to your potential customers.

 

[2busa]

EtrnlSoldier, All the tre does is create a short to ground. Once the short occurs, there is the difference you are experiencing.

For years to come, you will be able to literally disconnect a sensor or pay Ivan to short (harvest) the same 'backup code' for you. Your choice.

Once you begin to understand the ECU and it's, 'fail-safe' functions, you can then begin to save your money.

You know what this like? Telling someone crack, H is very addictive. They hear you, but still will light the damn pipe/spoon anyway.

 

[Johnnycheese]

give it up Busa2 you are way out of your league. you have no clue what the ecu does.
Go ahead unplug your GPS and run it in "fail safe" and then tell us what you found . I already know that is how I am basing my statement
remember this is a Motorcycle not a car.

 

[2busa]

JC, Busa wise, I have no clue about the product. Now, if you want to discuss the, "a-N method" inside the ECU for harvesting the digital electrical value, or the "D-J method" coding the ZX14, then you will lose the argument as to what the ECU does.

Please, don't tell me about the tre and what it does to the ZX14. I've disconnected the shift sensor and guess what? I created the same result by a simple disconnect of the shift sensor. The ECU backup was so obvious by the tre spitting the same exact code (locked 6 shift widow) as a disconnect.

Therefore, you will never need a tre for a computer bike.... EVER! You never needed it in 1999, nor do you need a tre now. It shows me that you JC, have yet to comprehend the triggering of the backup mode. It's that obvious how simple FI functions using 2 separate voltage values inside the ECU.

 

[Johnnycheese]

so I guess you still haven't unplugged yours and ran the bike huh?

 

[2busa]

JC, I do not own a Busa. If you are asking about disconnecting the GPS on a ZX14, yes I have. Yes, I see the same fail-safe code (locked 6 indicator window) the ECU boots to when the resistance is shorted (tre installed) to the wire harness, or disconnected (my 14's GPS unplugged) from the loop.

Note how simple you can harvest the backup code in the ECU. I've disconnected the Inlet Air Pressure Sensor from the throttle body. The response was quite noticeable. I then removed the Atmospheric Pressure Sensor... Holy sheet, what an improvement harvesting another backup code for the, "a-N Method" mode. The throttle became even more responsive by disconnecting the, IAPS.

The "D" in Digital Fuel Injection is the voltage value you want to harvest. So please JC, don't tell me I haven't done my homework. You should have picked up on the tuning trick long ago. Maybe now you see a different perspective tuning a computer bike. If not, you don't impress me as the "all knowing" person everyone thinks you are. This coding is way too easy to comprehend.

 

[Johnnycheese]

too bad you are giving advise and don't know squat. what works on a 14 DOES NOT work on a Busa.
now please do not post anymore
shame on you

 

[2busa]

JC, The shame is on you. Notice how you refuse see the correlation between the two computer bikes (no, every computer bike for that matter). The only guy I know who understands ECU backup harvesting is, Ivan.

Your troubleshooting logic is limited. You don't see the whole picture of backup, default-to, fail-safe; That a computer makes when the voltage values are skewed.

Last thing I'll do is listen to a guy like you, JC. My advice to you is to study more than one computer bike. Like you and I could converse on the digital "method" settings both bikes have. No offense.

 

[Johnnycheese]

(2busa @ Nov. 25 2006,10:55) JC, The shame is on you. Notice how you refuse see the correlation between the two computer bikes (no, every computer bike for that matter). The only guy I know who understands ECU backup harvesting is, Ivan.

Your troubleshooting logic is limited. You don't see the whole picture of backup, default-to, fail-safe; That a computer makes when the voltage values are skewed.

Last thing I'll do is listen to a guy like you, JC. My advice to you is to study more than one computer bike. Like you and I could converse on the digital "method" settings both bikes have. No offense.

yet you do not own one and you are advising unplugging the GPS and you do not even know what that will do.
Go ahead eveyone unplug it and I promise not one of you will have a bike that will either go pas 10,200 in 6th or run properly.
remember I don't know jack squat about the BUSAs ecu or GPS.
2Busa you are correct I am not worthy

just prove your statement without books on a Busa not a 14(because on a 14 the tre makes the 2nd throttlebodies work better)cliffnote version)then you can post

 

[2busa]

JC, The whole point, again, the whole point of my posting... is to show everyone that "you will achieve the same result" triggering the backup in the ECU by a simple disconnect, or (the sucker move) short it out with a modern aftermarket 'elixir.' Bottom line, the aim is to have the bike function in, fail-safe.

JC, I can see the detailed explanation you concluded to, and I quote, "... the tre makes the second throttlebody work better." JC, the theory is the same. We are talking computer bikes.... same/same!! See how technical you are when you say, 'work better" when dumb old me can tell you exactly what happens when you install a tre and the dash codes start popping up. I can't understand why no one can see the logical steps the ECU takes when the voltage signal is disrupted. It's that simple to comprehend. How about you work a better theory than saying, "work better."

Here we go again... What do you think happens when I disconnect the GPS on a 14? I harvested two codes. One code raises the subthrottle in a locked position. Where the tre was to be plugged in, I simply kept the same connection disconnected and achieved the same result.

JC, until you understand the simple logic obtaining the digital backup code; You'll stay just as confused as the riders who keep buying the modern elixirs out there. It was achievable the day the Busa first came out. It's a computer bike!

Just think how duped I felt for the 14 owners. The 14 to me is like the Busa first coming out. Someone I never heard of, has some elixir for the 14 that perks up the bottom end. I find the ECU uses a backup system in the manual, and I'm already sensorless-subless (all plates'shaft/sensor removed) and use the digital backup. I've gone as far as running the low speed (called the, a-N method) ECU digital ignition/fuel settings. It's sad the Busa gang never dug deeper in the ECU for these settings. If I had a Busa, I'd be deep in the set. The Busa computer is set up the same way. Look at your codes in the book.

JC, It is true. I am not confident of your tuning ability or how you explain things on a motorcycle. I'd run the whole Busa sensorless if I owned one today. You just don't understand the hidden tune in the backup. Only thing is, I used a 14 and was multi-coded in the backup. Not one aftermkt part used. I simply disconnected sensors.

Just think of the potential of the Busa now... setting more codes in the backup mode. I've done my "backups" on the 14. Like you're telling me I don't know how a computer bike works? Give me a break!