timing retarder question

[2busa]

tin, hush. you're the typical squid that knows jack ****. I'll be laughing at you squids year in and year out. as long as you own a computer bike you are stuck with presets inside the ecu.

jonny has yet to explain why you don't need a tre. he knows you don't one, but can't explain why.

tin, you jiffy lube loser, you have a clue why you don't need to run a tre? tin, i'm not in this thread to insult. you will lose if i really start in, tin!!!

if you install a tre you created a preset locked in the computer. remove the tre, the bike runs back to stock configuration. have you figured out how simple this is?

7 lame years, and it's smack in your face, you have yet to see it, you are still wondering if you should invite a computer engineer?

i now laugh at the comments. no logical walk-thru. no one's ass or dyno cant figure it out either.

always think a stock bike when i address your shitty drivability complainants (this map **** being so, so obvious to any tuner running a computer bike.)

the busa always had a performance bump = set more codes.

you want your computer bike tuned like a tre? well, that's the 7 year stupid question = disconnect the wire harness where you plug in the tre.

now go for a ride and tell me if there is a difference?

tinbender0.... here is were you put up or shut up. pull the tre and keep it disconnected. no difference after you rode it, was there. oh,so now ask yourself the 7yr head scratching itch..... damn tre simply set a code.


it's too simple to troubleshoot a computer bike. the computer is self diagnosing. if you only knew that small bit of info 7yrs ago.


have a grasp of the logical progression the computer takes to continue running?

if you knew how to tune a computer bike, you first have to capture the right codes in the ecu.

what do you think the tre does now.... tim, the all knowing. can you explain?

 

[tourbus]

johnnycheese is right a t.r.e. is a bandaid. my used 03 already had a tre on it, i took his advise & took it off to try it with out it. my busa starts, idles,runs better(not h.p. wise) but runs better and it runs leaner judging by the exhaust tips. i think tre's are a joke, take your hard earned $ and get better riding gear,tires, or save for the fictonal 08 busa, ive heard new busa for the last 5 years but thats a whole new subject

 

[BA BUSA]

Anybody need any of this

 

[Projekt]

Coming into this reply without having read all of the information presented here.
Seems to me that Johnny Cheese is arguing that there is no timing retard. This could be an understanding he has due to his in-depth knowledge of engine management and tuning parameters necessary in lower gears. Sure, the speed restriction is a fact we all know that.
However, a "timing retard" in gears 1&2 could be a misunderstanding and or a mislabeling of a product intended to advance timing in lower gears for a bit of a seat of the pants performance improvement.
Theoretically speaking, an engine in lower gears (intended to be operated at lower speeds=loads) requires less fuel and thus less timing advance. Since the engine is not loaded as heavily in the lower gears as it would be in 4th, 5th, and 6th gears it requires less fuel to spin at optimum efficiency/maximum performance. Suzuki engineers designed the Engine management system to operate as efficiently as possible given a set of operational requirements dictated by their leadership. They made the bike have as much longevity and reliability as possible without compromising their performance goal. So this meant that they needed to design a adequate amount of timing advance into the lower gear engine control maps to allow for 87 octane fuel with a buffer amount to control pre-detonation (for reliability). Now for those of us that only ever run regular unleaded 87 octane fuel there is no need for a "TRE".  However, for those that want to wring out the maximum performance a little more ignition advance can be tolerated in conjunction with using premium fuel. This is because higher octane fuel doesn't burn as easily as regular fuel so in order to capitalize on this characteristic you must increase ignition advance. This can be done by a qualified high performance specialist using a dyno to program as many degrees of advance into whatever custom "chip" is being used.
Now, as far as the higher gears are concerned, fuel/ignition maps on the top gears are set up to deliver maximum performance in a high load envelope. That is to say that they get more fuel and tolerate more ignition advance because it takes more fuel to spin the engine against it's aerodynamic drag at high velocities.

 

[BA BUSA]

Ya gotta love a true thread jack...the original topic was "timing retarder question" then it gets into PC's and FI...the original poster hasn't been back since this mess started

 

[Johnnycheese]

prove there is one.
everyone says there is a retarded timing in the first gears yet I have never seen any proof it exist .
the reason some get improvement is because of the extra fuel added in the 5/6 map. this is the same reason it does NOT help some bike.
with your reasoning I guess those bikes don't have a timing retard from the factory correct.

 

[KROOZER]

(Johnnycheese @ Oct. 24 2006,17:08) a PC3 adds or subtracts injector pluse time after the ecu and before the injector.

This is the basic answer to how the PC3 works. It doesnt get any easier than that.

And I aslo agree with JC about the 12:1 ratio. I was reading a magazine last month where they took a a stock R1 (I beleive) and just added a PC and got good results. It even gained a few HP & torque in stock form. The magazine stated the ideal ratio should be 13:1. So its obvious JC knows what he is talking about.

So I believe is time to let him rest for a while for he has exhausted himself trying to put some real knowledge into our head, sometimes even repeating himself.

Thank U JC. U R DA MAN!  

JC is my hero. Another star was just added 2 your rating.

 

[hooken203]

These are not my words but are from another one of the top tuners that I think is at the top of his game.

There is another modification that one of the other sportbike-oriented magazines has praised as the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is a timing-retard eliminator (TRE) available for the 2000 and ‘01 Hayabusa. This is a great mod for guys who race at Bonneville, have several of miles of speed limit free roads in their area (I wish!) or like to practice wheelies. If you like to drag race or do roll-on's , this product will SLOW YOU DOWN! We have tested it time and time again on different bikes at the drag strip with the same results- around one tenth and 1 ½- 2 mph slower. The track measures performance and does not lie when used properly. The bike does have more “seat of the pantsâ€￾ grunt for about the first 5 feet in 1st gear (or up to 4500 rpm) then is confused into thinking that it is in 5th gear all of the time, even though it is in 1st, 2nd, etc. I’ll bet that big-buck Suzuki R&D team didn’t place all of those different load maps in the ECM for no reason!

 

[Projekt]

(Johnnycheese @ Nov. 05 2006,08:55) prove there is one.
everyone says there is a retarded timing in the first gears yet I have never seen any proof it exist .
the reason some get improvement is because of the extra fuel added in the 5/6 map. this is the same reason it does NOT help some bike.
with your reasoning I guess those bikes don't have a timing retard from the factory correct.

Actually if you were addressing me with this.... I guess I didn't make myself clear..
I agree with you about the actual non-existence of a "Timing Retard". I believe that we are talking about the same thing when referencing the 5th gear maps, that being extra fuel.
Not sure if you were talking about my post. In any case my intention was to elaborate a bit by using theory to present a possible scenario.. Thats all.

 

[2busa]

(Johnnycheese @ Nov. 05 2006,08:55) prove there is one.

with your reasoning I guess those bikes don't have a timing retard from the factory correct.

if you knew how open loop works, there two load speeds... low rpm and high rpm output.  what controls the timing is the crank sensor. two pre-sets are used. you don't have the 02 sensor option to change fuel and timing.  

that is why you can pop off your main throttle tps connector and you will run the open loop backup mode in the ecu.. no maps whatsoever, but the rpm spin of the crank at any speed (imaginable) determines the fuel feed.

I can add any part the fi system to any of your theories. johnny states he is guessing. if you read the manual, let alone do a simple connector removal, your logic points to a shifter code. looks like you don't see the obvious (code) connection using the tre.

guess for another 7 years for all i care. one idiot has yet to figure out that the fi and ecu are part of the full disruption the tre does when you install it.  you still don't see it. it's so obvious.

ever hear of,  ''method tuning"?  i didn't think so, or you would have had the busa nailed 7 yrs ago.

johnny, you are guessing about the timing and fuel. my reasoning is absolute as fuel injection itself. i cannot change the practical reasoning...

same reason you throw trim at a stock bike that is digitally on the  money with every power stroke. johnny, don't put word in my mouth about how you think fi woks. i have every sequence moving in it's logical progression.

here is an easy no start diagnosis for the busa. the answer is in my posts. here it is: you have gas, compression, and spark. the basis are squared away. why doesn't the busa start?

 

[2busa]

tin, look at your signature list....

'tre, just in case'


see, how you can't even pinpoint how it works? just in case of what???

I see very clearly no one, not even johnny can walk thru the basic fuel injection theory.

as long as you ''guess'' johnny and can't explain how simple the system works, you will be forever lost. the heck if I'll let you figure out why my computer bike is not running correctly. you own a manual?

after 7 yrs, be on the same page, or keep blowing money thinking some devise will change the bike's performance....> like the tre for example.

you simply set a 'method' (timing advance) backup or set a single digit sensor backup inside the computer.... each and every time you install a non-OEM devise, or the damage the bike's wiring.. if it just happens to short, the ecu backup kicks in.

how much easier can it be explained. it is that absolute, or it won't work! busa still runs with the tre... because the backup defaults to (that) short. the tre is a perfect example of a short that triggers a code (on the dash).

a valve tick can also sound like piston slap. lean hot pistons heat up and transfer aluminum to the cylinder walls... thus the excessive (piston skirt) 'ticking' clearance, therefore ring damage = oil smoke out the exhaust pipes. where are all the belching blue smoke busas? busas burn perfect... show me the damage of a, "lean running" (how you view it, not me, johnny) computer bike burning itself down. I don't care if you added a pipe... show me the 'smoking' bike.

maybe one guy has caught the grasp and your limit (only one backup mode) of the ecu.... so, there is hope for the rest of you....clueless.

very simple system is the ecu. if an outside sensor fails, the backup takes over inside the ecu. if the backup fails, the ecu's circuit board is fried = replace ecu.

all simple to understand. all moving in a logical progression.all undisputable. go ahead, explain how the tre woks now.

tell me in progressive detail how the tre works when you already know the ecu works as explained in theory as well as in practice many times over as I have stated.

johnny, care to logically explain how the tre works the way you see it? remember, I will use ''backup'' for a sensor failure, be it short to ground, or out of ohm spec from the book. I will use the term 'method' for the low/high advancer loads at all rpms. remember to check the resistance values ''before'' (spec range) and the ''after'' ohm resistance readings when you install the tre. are you still within spec?


take your time answering.... take another 7 more years if you like.

 

[tinbender0]

First of all , I don't even have my " TRE "installed , Because it didn't do what the description said it would do. I don't care how it works but obviously, mine doesn't. Secondly it's in my toolbag, just in case I ever want to exceed 187, that's what I mean but "just in case". And last,,,that's what I pay a mechanic for, to know everthing about my bike, so why don't you enlighten everyone here if the dang thing works or not , smarty pants

!!!DANG!!! I can't fathom your brazing unmitigated audacity..

 

c'mon back one time

 

[2busa]

tin, i've been goofing with you all. i haven't a clue how it works. i made it all up. i made up how fuel injection works too...

the thread is all...

< liquid THC.

 

[Mr Brown]

(2busa @ Nov. 06 2006,17:27) tin, i've been goofing with you all.  i haven't a clue how it works. i made it all up. i made up how fuel injection works too...

the thread is all...

  < liquid THC.

I think that is the first intelligent thing you have posted in this entir thread.

 

[2busa]

once you understand to tune the bike thru the ecu by coding the 'method' and 'sensor' settings first, you will always be the consumate, 'also-ran.'

little do you understand you set a partial code connecting the tre in play.

as for you  mr. brown, i read your fuel injection comment. you don't have a clue how the system works any more than tin, toilet sitter, johnny (cause you know you don't need a tre, but can't explain why)...


see how no one has mentioned not even one burned up busa on the community board. see how no decent bike mechanic has yet to name the 4th most important dignostic step to make a computer bike run (if all c/f/s are 100% perfect).
see how no one has diputed how the real fi theory works. you all posess fractions of the fi theory when you explain it.

you have no concept that a computer bike can run so lean and be so fast like a stock busa.  well, it works, doesn't it?

 

[Mr Brown]

(2busa @ Nov. 07 2006,12:37) once you understand to tune the bike thru the ecu by coding the 'method' and 'sensor' settings first, you will always be the consumate, 'also-ran.'

little do you understand you set a partial code connecting the tre in play.

as for you  mr. brown, i read your fuel injection comment. you don't have a clue how the system works any more than tin, toilet sitter, johnny (cause you know you don't need a tre, but can't explain why)...


see how no one has mentioned not even one burned up busa on the community board. see how no decent bike mechanic has yet to name the 4th most important dignostic step to make a computer bike run (if all c/f/s are 100% perfect).
see how no one has diputed how the real fi theory works. you all posess fractions of the fi theory when you explain it.

you have no concept that a computer bike can run so lean and be so fast like a stock busa.  well, it works, doesn't it?

Do you have/ride/tune a Busa? Or are you a ghey little nerdy keyboard jockey? I drag race my Busa, I do not need a TRE, it is faster without one. Many people, who have more respectable reputations than your own, (including Johnny Cheese) have conducted real world research, and determined that it is a hinderance for drag racing. I don't care why you think whatever you are muddlingly trying to say, I know what works. Go pester others, simpleton.

 

[Rhythm]

umm, ummm just to clarify !  

 

[Projekt]

Anybody looking to generalize on the technical proficiency of all posters in this thread is obviously immature and looking to amuse himself...
None of us knows who 2Busa is. No one knows why he wears a red nose, white makeup and really big shoes too. Nobody knows that his name could be Ronald M. or that he may cross dress while posting endless insults about proven motorcycle tuners.
The fact that 2Busa is anonymous makes it possible that he could really be a young girl scout selling thin mints and putting on headgear for jaw alignment at night prior to bed.
Heck 2Busa could be hiding in the closet of whatever domicile and reading about fuel injection technology in order to attempt to upstage people on this site. Got a feeling that all of the acne on those pubescent cheeks may be spreading to the eyes and clouding reality. 2Busa go away, grow up some and come back when all of your private places sprout hair. We'll forgive you and probably even welcome you back.

 

[tinbender0]

now, now, now, just because

2busa is a azzmunch, you know he can't help himself. lol

 

[2busa]

projekt,  it's all psychological on my part. acting out what you think i'm doing to most everyone is just an, 'attention getter'... nothing more.  you may not like the tactful approach, but someone is going to be on the same page eventually. and if not, there is no skin off my nose.


here is a perfect example how mr. brown steps in his own dog poop theory, and has yet to comprehend the obvous, and i quote...
"Many people, who have more respectable reputations than your own, (including Johnny Cheese) have conducted real world research, and determined that it is a hinderance for drag racing."

mr. brown, there is no hinderence. the bikes run thru the 1/4 mile in a partial "backup mode" ... nothing more than that. there is just one code set you didn't tune for. if you knew you threw the code in the first place (7ys. ago),  it was one minor altered tune if anything. you didn't address it totally. you didn't extract more peak power from that one code set, did you?  does that sound like thourough tuning?

you want specific tuning codes set in the computer to run the correct backup numbers. there is yor full scale drag race trap speeds.


what some tuners havent figured out is your time slps are invalid. why? because you are running a code down the 1320. if it was all stock,you'd have  your base times correct. but since you spoiled a perfect working sensor by installing a tre or by simply disconnecting the harness, you now posess a new set of numbers from the backup (ecu). call the time slip running in 'partial backup.' ... so for mr. brown to state a code is a 'hinderence,' it shows me he does not comprehend the 'cause and effect of running a pure stock ecu and a partial-set ecu.

stock is one set of analog (sensor) numbers... the other set of numbers is the single digit  'backup number' inside the ecu.

this is undisputable, and is absolute. note the step-by-step sequences to come to this simple conclusion. it is easy to comprehend, easy to watch the compter function as designed. you are missing the obvious, it is the way the bike works, and how i have to digagnose the bike when it has a problem.

if i rely on mr brown's theory, and dipute the engineers theory in the shop manual, i'll never find the problem and will be as lost as mr. brown trying to make the bike run...


mr. brown, i believe your own theory sucks. i answered your theory conclusively, in detail, and look how i shot the stink off it. don't talk to me about doing my tuning homework. i can just imagine what your 4 stroke theories must sound like, mr. brown.