timing retarder question

[tinbender0]

I with JC on this. Doesn't someone have a before and after TRE Dyno chart with the same bike . Wouldn't that show something? Anyway I think its just a " magic bean"! If it make you feel faster use it. You should have bought the fastest color anyway. BUT MINE DIDN'T DO JACK!!,,Other than take away the 186 mph thing..But I DID notice a diff. with the PCIII.. TRE=JUNK

 

[PaceMaster]

Shizors Gang--TRE or not to TRE----- Harumph---- Way back when four years ago Nariccuss posted a diagram of how to make your own switchable TRE. cheap cheap
I have had this mod ever since then. I ride with mine on 100% of the time.............. Smoother at low speeds like 25 in a 25 zone. Busa thinks it is in 5th gear all the time.
Except at idle with clutch out--- idle map is doing it's thing. neutral----------pull in the clutch and the engine changes it's tone------GGGRRRRR it sounds--- and i can get 50 mpg's-- i don't understand that though. JC tell me
that 5th gear doesn't have the most ignition advance and fuel delivery-----so much torque sliding the clutch out from a dead stop......Just plain sweet-- since then i added a 4 into one Muzzy and a PCII with a great map.....My bike runs Perfect--- yesterday reeled in a R1
and made him nervous--priceless

 

[SAMBUSA]

(ranman @ Oct. 23 2006,21:29) we need a poll for who has one and who doesn`t

Done. Retarded timing poll in Poll Section

 

[Johnnycheese]

I did do the dyno test and no gain or loss to speak of, like I posted before and many times unless you bike is problerly mapped so will think the tre is great and other will say it suxs.
bottom line is 95%of busa owers will or have a pc3 so if it is mapped correctly no need for a tre.

ps the one who say it smooths out the bike take it off and ride in 5th gears the bike will be just as smooth, why because of the fuel not timing, plus any timing change would be under 4k,which I did this with a pc3R added and subtracted timing below 4k with a zero map and it made no differance untill fuel was added or subtracted.

don't beleive me try it yourself alot of board members have tre and pc3's takeoff the tre and I can help you

 

[Justyntym]

So when I look at a powercommander map I see throttle position and rpm...I don't see anything about gear position.

It looks like a map is a map regardless of gears.

How does the map vs. gear position work? And how does it change when you change gears?

 

[Johnnycheese]

because the Busas ECU adds more fuel in 5th and 6th due to the ramair

 

[2busa]

johnny, walk thru the logic with me, or am i goin crazy.

since the intro of the busa, this bike and any bike going back as far as the honda 500 turbo, you can't change anything in that turbo computer, but default to a backup code.

Take the Busa for example... the only thing that happens to an analog signal failure is to go in backup mode.

A disconnect is as good as sticking some contraption in between a signal. no matter what you thing any unit for ever and day can break into a computer and change the backup signal is not understanding the computer side of the signal.

on the engine side of the (what the hell are you over spraying a perfect fuel injection system) is the crank sensor calling the fuel shots for ever and a day also.

Think no pipe on a bike. Who cares what is on the exhaust side if the crank sensor knows what to spray the time it starts the bike without touching throttle, or if it hit well over the rev limit, that computer is 'fixed to spray all 4 cylinders with precision.

you throw a dough brick at it to spray more fuel on a perfect system? you are thinking old jet ways. no way with fuel injection.

see the logic about more fuel in a perfect system, defaulting to a code you will never, ever control forever! unless you have an in with S, you are sol.

 

[Johnnycheese]

okay I lost you somewhere,
but here goes nothing....
in 5th and 6th the ecu has programmed to add 10% more fuel to the mix.

a PC3 adds or subtracts injector pluse time after the ecu and before the injector.

 

[2busa]

John,  think of fuel injection as a simple battery. It never runs out of voltage, it never needs charging. it will always put out 12 volts forever and a day.

If you disrupt or disconnect the flow, the computer uses that little coin battery inside the PC tower that remembers your time, down there at the system tray. Power goes out in the house, the little battery takes over, nothing is lost.

Same inside the ECU. Short it, disconnect it, ground it, that secret performance signal was always in the ECU.

Want another simple example of why fuel injection needs no tuning. Turn on the faucet to do the lawn. You have a constant flow of water no matter how much you open the spray nozzle. Think of the hand nozzle as an exhaust pipe. Same spray behind the faucet, just a faster spin of the crank (sensor) that will program every rpm all the way until the valves float, just as if you took the nozzle off the end of the hose.



You're getting... Hosed!

 

[tourbus]

Ive always been told that most new motorcycles come from the factory running lean to help pass emmisions. so if the tre richens up the bike by making it think its in 5th that shouldnt hurt a thing. however i did put a 'dumb' tre on my busa & i cant tell you if it did a thing so id save the $ for tires or better riding gear.

 

[tinbender0]

I agree!!

 

[Johnnycheese]

(2busa @ Oct. 25 2006,14:31) John,  think of fuel injection as a simple battery. It never runs out of voltage, it never needs charging. it will always put out 12 volts forever and a day.

If you disrupt or disconnect the flow, the computer uses that little coin battery inside the PC tower that remembers your time, down there at the system tray. Power goes out in the house, the little battery takes over, nothing is lost.

Same inside the ECU. Short it, disconnect it, ground it, that secret performance signal was always in the ECU.

Want another simple example of why fuel injection needs no tuning. Turn on the faucet to do the lawn. You have a constant flow of water no matter how much you open the spray nozzle. Think of the hand nozzle as an exhaust pipe. Same spray behind the faucet, just a faster spin of the crank (sensor) that will program every rpm all the way until the valves float, just as if you took the nozzle off the end of the hose.



You're getting... Hosed!

your perfect world is missing one item
O2 sensor,
you have an open loop system
ecu can only do what it is set to do and can ony change when a sensor lets it.

 

[2busa]

john, tell me what does not work well in open loop. sensor goes bad, the computer backup takes over for the sensor.

same idiots that yell for another rich map, trying to think they need more fuel on a pre-programmed pump. an engine is a pump... per-fueled forever perfect.

the problem so many tuners/novices always chase is they are at a limit of tune with computer bikes.

show me your logical answer as to how i see a map complaint time after time, is throwing an over-rich mixture at either a closed or open loop....see,

the logic, the common sense shows a closed loop would have shut down an over-rich p-com on the next cycle.

after fuel injection answers your questions like this simple ''real world'' step, maybe then will you understand, shorting, or yanking a sensor wire off will default to a tune you never knew about. after-market parts for a stock bike, will trigger a short to the, 'backup program' inside the ecu.


until everyone is on the same page after being snookered for the last 7 years, only then will you realize the ecu had the goods all along.

example: think installing an advance unit will change the timing? timing defaults to a backup advance to protect the perfect fuel/ign system. you were tuning a backup advancer... you changed nothing, and you never will. ecu locks you out with every move.

go ahead, challenge the ecu's logic to repair itself. we on the same page yet?
i know very little about fuel injection. john, if you want to go, 'one on one' tuning a stock busa, I'll bad-mouth most every aftermarket part you install, an will explain in detail why the bike did what it did, all hidden inside the, ecu.

it's a friendly challenge. i added a little hook, so don't take offense, just want the facts for once and for all.

 

[Johnnycheese]

your statement has just proved you have no clue how the open ecu on bikes and pc3's work

 

[2busa]

you  have yet to give me a logical explanation, after each and every time i have come up with a more logical explanation rather than saying i know jack **** about what little i know about fuel injection.

why j-cheese, is there a forever map search for a perfect spray? when you do receive a map, it's too rich anyway. explain why you need a map for a busa's fuel injection? explain how the pump can spin the perfect fuel mix, and you want to add moe fuel?


johnny, i'm beginning to wonder about your 7 year lack of understanding fuel injection.

 

[2busa]

real bottom, bottom basics. an open loop runs pre-single digits to operate each parameter.

a closed loop operates on a range of voltages, instead of relying on a single value like, the open loop system.

simple to comprehend ,basic in theory, and as you see, both systems do exactly that in practice...

jonny, agree, or disagree. i'm on your side, believe me when i say this.

it's the way today's bikes default to the ecu.

any part you think some inventor dreamed up, you will see a service code being triggered in the ecu.

what code are you stuck with.... no sifter numbers... what? no doubt it can be easily explained....

you are riding with code fault triggered by the invention.


jonny, can you explain it any easier, or can't you see the ecu was compromised.

 

[Johnnycheese]

okay answer this at 10% throttle 2000 rpm you are running (let's say) 16:1 so you add a PC3 and add fuel to get to 12:1
what has the ecu done?

 

[BA BUSA]

Injector Pulse Width...anybody in this thread...other than JC know what this is

 

[ike]

The length of time an injector is open ( fuel delivery ) is called the pulse width. The longer the pulse width, the more fuel. The width is controled by the ecm. The ecm knows how much
depending on inputs (sensors and senders). etc. Not an Ace but I know a bit about it.

 

[CrashBomb]

So...is he saying it's virtually impossible to tune a computer controlled fuel injection system because the system will always default to the factory specs if the "signal" is interrupted?

Um...kay...

I think JC is the LAST person you should be arguing with about this matter.

I have to admit it is funny when they argue though.