timing retarder question
- Thread starter RJB
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Johnnycheese
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correct(BA BUSA @ Oct. 29 2006,16:57) Injector Pulse Width...anybody in this thread...other than JC know what this is
so because all you are changing is the pluse duration and it is after the ecu, the ecu will not change from what the factory programmed it at.
hence the factory has made it rich in some areas and lean others spots, you need to add and subtract fuel because your ecu will not.
remember it is not close loop so the ecu NEVER changes.
never no matter what from factory settings will it change or correct for piston and exhaust or intake changes.
same for timing you have no knock sensor for this either
we agree up to the point that a now rich, ''someone, my bike sputters no matter what percentage map i use'' ... condition.
yes, someone can now figure out, simply explain exactly, it is a rich-like-jetting-condition = a sputter/stumble/falls on it's face symptom... and this will most likely be the first place to start looking for a driveability issue.
this makes perfect troubleshooting sense any time you work on a perfect fuel system like the busa or that zx14 digital ecu. both use the same jobbers for the ecu's, you would think?
most pcom'd stock busas run like crap with too much ''fuel over-spraying the engineering'' already built-in = you will run rich.... period.
yes, someone can now figure out, simply explain exactly, it is a rich-like-jetting-condition = a sputter/stumble/falls on it's face symptom... and this will most likely be the first place to start looking for a driveability issue.
this makes perfect troubleshooting sense any time you work on a perfect fuel system like the busa or that zx14 digital ecu. both use the same jobbers for the ecu's, you would think?
most pcom'd stock busas run like crap with too much ''fuel over-spraying the engineering'' already built-in = you will run rich.... period.
The TRE works for me as far as city cruising and low throttle driving. Switched off, it feels sluggish.
Keep in mind that mine is an earlier '99 with the old 16-bit ECU. I now run bone stock. I'm pretty sure the newer ECUs render the mod fairly useless.
Of course, I'm going by memory here, being that I haven't ridden in a year.
Keep in mind that mine is an earlier '99 with the old 16-bit ECU. I now run bone stock. I'm pretty sure the newer ECUs render the mod fairly useless.
Of course, I'm going by memory here, being that I haven't ridden in a year.
Johnnycheese
Registered
this is where you are wrong, it seems you never mapped a Busa you have to add and subtract fuel.
all you want to do is add
and the ECU does what it does THEN the pc adds or subtract the pulse
all you want to do is add
and the ECU does what it does THEN the pc adds or subtract the pulse
PC controls the FINAL map...most stock Busa's run lean at some point and can be too rich also. You don't need a PC on a stock bike...but you can TUNE it to run its best with a PC...when you go to a full after market exhaust system then the LEAN condition is worse.
You can take 10 bikes with all the same mods...they each need a custom map to run their best...the maps that you get with the PC or that you down load from Dynojet are just a starting point.
You can take 10 bikes with all the same mods...they each need a custom map to run their best...the maps that you get with the PC or that you down load from Dynojet are just a starting point.
Johnnycheese
Registered
you were the one that said throwing more fuel at it
and the ecu will go to backup etc
not I
do you see how you begin to answer your own questions. da, you said the fuel is pre-metered, then you add the over-rich spray with a pc.
who lost an engine without jetting their busa... using any pipe out in the market today, or 6 years ago for that matter... who's bike melted down?
who is pushing a lean condition rumor when we are discussing busa fuel injection?
raise your hand if you think you can lean-out a pre-programmed fuel injection engine that needs no exhaust to run this simple pump. show me how the engine leans-out when that crank sensor is digesting each stroke from engine start to rev limiter pop-off and beyond.
list the seized busas that were too lean when only a pipe was the only swap from stock configuration.
the original post is the same study as the 'ecu' and fuel injection... you will default to a code in the ecu, or, you will over-rich ideal fuel injection of said product.
have you a grasp yet... how bumbling the pc tunes are as rampant and by all account, can revert back to an over-spray rich condition.
listening to vague answers as to how all those plug-in inventions revert right back to a code set in the ecu is your confusion, not mine. it was never a vague 7yr. question...... ever! fuel injection uses no, 'vague' theories to operate.
each and every action is being described in it's most simple and logical explanation.
counter the simplicity. you can't. I don't make the rules. it is basic ecu/fi.
disprove anything i have said so far.
take another 7 years to figure it out, if you like.... or, you know now to add why the aftermarket-clip-in-place novelties are all they are.... it simply triggers a code to achieve the same result, as if you disconnected the original unit, or shorted the original unit to ground.
makes no matter to me whether you know how to tune your bikes. you sure have a different theory than what I read in a factory shop manual.
j-cheese, what i said, was.... the ecu throws the code for any aftermarket item, like an advance unit disrupting the engineered electrical signal. the fi injectors are not coded, are they?
if no injector codes, but captures fuel trim time, then having no designated code for each injector... therefore no code, just a compromise of a pulse time.
that, you should have figured out on your own, because I have no other way of explaining how to follow the theory.
you or anyone else not following the simplicity of fi is again, not understanding the simple basics of fi.....
7 yrs. and counting....unreal.
you say you dont need the timing device, but cant explain why...
or can you.
who lost an engine without jetting their busa... using any pipe out in the market today, or 6 years ago for that matter... who's bike melted down?
who is pushing a lean condition rumor when we are discussing busa fuel injection?
raise your hand if you think you can lean-out a pre-programmed fuel injection engine that needs no exhaust to run this simple pump. show me how the engine leans-out when that crank sensor is digesting each stroke from engine start to rev limiter pop-off and beyond.
list the seized busas that were too lean when only a pipe was the only swap from stock configuration.
the original post is the same study as the 'ecu' and fuel injection... you will default to a code in the ecu, or, you will over-rich ideal fuel injection of said product.
have you a grasp yet... how bumbling the pc tunes are as rampant and by all account, can revert back to an over-spray rich condition.
listening to vague answers as to how all those plug-in inventions revert right back to a code set in the ecu is your confusion, not mine. it was never a vague 7yr. question...... ever! fuel injection uses no, 'vague' theories to operate.
each and every action is being described in it's most simple and logical explanation.
counter the simplicity. you can't. I don't make the rules. it is basic ecu/fi.
disprove anything i have said so far.
take another 7 years to figure it out, if you like.... or, you know now to add why the aftermarket-clip-in-place novelties are all they are.... it simply triggers a code to achieve the same result, as if you disconnected the original unit, or shorted the original unit to ground.
makes no matter to me whether you know how to tune your bikes. you sure have a different theory than what I read in a factory shop manual.
j-cheese, what i said, was.... the ecu throws the code for any aftermarket item, like an advance unit disrupting the engineered electrical signal. the fi injectors are not coded, are they?
if no injector codes, but captures fuel trim time, then having no designated code for each injector... therefore no code, just a compromise of a pulse time.
that, you should have figured out on your own, because I have no other way of explaining how to follow the theory.
you or anyone else not following the simplicity of fi is again, not understanding the simple basics of fi.....
7 yrs. and counting....unreal.
you say you dont need the timing device, but cant explain why...
or can you.
2busa,
JC is giving you some very good information. He “IS†one of the best hayabusa tuners in the country. If you open you mind, I promise you can learn quite a bit from him. I’ll try to help here a bit on the fuel injection portion. I’m no expert and I’m sure JC will correct me where I screw up.
There are two basic types of fuel injection. Open loop and closed loop.
An open-loop system does not using information from downstream sensors to affect the fuel flow. It uses a predetermined program (lets call is a MAP) to determine the amount of fuel (duration of injector pulse) base on what sensors it is using. So let’s use the basics, it uses sensors to monitor throttle position and rpm. No matter what at 4000 rpm and 90% throttle it will give say .012 milliseconds of a signal to open the injector at he correct time.
A true closed loop system uses a sensor to determine the results of what you already sent it. Think of your air compressor. It has a sensor that keeps the air pressure in the tank between 80 and 110 psi. Lower than 80 it tells it to fire up and put air in the tank, more that 110 it says to stop.
What we often call closed loop fuel injection is really a combination of both theories and techniques. You start with a basic open loop system and you then fine tune it with a closed loop system. Usually this is by adding an oxygen sensor. By using feedback from this sensor we can fine tune and further approach the desired air fuel mixture for our intentions.
Since there are other sensor sometimes put into place( MAS air sensor, engine temp sensor, ambient are temp sensor, etc.) we can use these as part of the open loop system again still fine tuning it with the closed loop portion of the engine control module. If one of the critical sensors fails, such as the O2 sensor, the module can be programmed to fall into open-loop mode. Then it will be close but not optimal and you can drive you car/motorcycle home or to be serviced. Now throw an extra sensor in the there on a V6 or V8. With a O2 sensor on each side we can further fine tune it for difference of side to side distribution, efficiency etc.
The busa has an open-loop injection system. It has absolutely no way of knowing what is coming out of the header. It is pretty extensively programmed and has a sensor in the airbox, gear position indicators etc. From testing the designers knew it would be getting more air at higher speeds so the mixture curve is richened in different areas in 5th and 6th gear. More on that later.
A power commander (PC) is added after the ECU. Adding a PC modifies the injector pulse width that the ECU sent to the injector. The ECU doesn’t have a way of knowing it even happened. There is no O2 sensor to “say hey wait a minute cut that back a bitâ€. When we select 5 or 6 and hit the area where the ECU says more fuel, the PC still adds or subtracts from that additional fuel. The PC does not know what gear you are in (to my knowledge).
So let’s fool the ECU by telling it we are in 5th gear all of the time. If you are already lean in the lower gears, you might see a performance improvement because you are closer to the correct A/F, however it will be the same in 5th. Did you help, maybe….. but you just placed a bandaid on it instead of fixing the problem. Additionally if it was correctly tuned prior to making this change, you are going to hurt the performance as it is going to be richer than desired. Further if you had the bike tuned with a TRE in place you are not going to be adding fuel in the higher gears.
JC is giving you some very good information. He “IS†one of the best hayabusa tuners in the country. If you open you mind, I promise you can learn quite a bit from him. I’ll try to help here a bit on the fuel injection portion. I’m no expert and I’m sure JC will correct me where I screw up.
There are two basic types of fuel injection. Open loop and closed loop.
An open-loop system does not using information from downstream sensors to affect the fuel flow. It uses a predetermined program (lets call is a MAP) to determine the amount of fuel (duration of injector pulse) base on what sensors it is using. So let’s use the basics, it uses sensors to monitor throttle position and rpm. No matter what at 4000 rpm and 90% throttle it will give say .012 milliseconds of a signal to open the injector at he correct time.
A true closed loop system uses a sensor to determine the results of what you already sent it. Think of your air compressor. It has a sensor that keeps the air pressure in the tank between 80 and 110 psi. Lower than 80 it tells it to fire up and put air in the tank, more that 110 it says to stop.
What we often call closed loop fuel injection is really a combination of both theories and techniques. You start with a basic open loop system and you then fine tune it with a closed loop system. Usually this is by adding an oxygen sensor. By using feedback from this sensor we can fine tune and further approach the desired air fuel mixture for our intentions.
Since there are other sensor sometimes put into place( MAS air sensor, engine temp sensor, ambient are temp sensor, etc.) we can use these as part of the open loop system again still fine tuning it with the closed loop portion of the engine control module. If one of the critical sensors fails, such as the O2 sensor, the module can be programmed to fall into open-loop mode. Then it will be close but not optimal and you can drive you car/motorcycle home or to be serviced. Now throw an extra sensor in the there on a V6 or V8. With a O2 sensor on each side we can further fine tune it for difference of side to side distribution, efficiency etc.
The busa has an open-loop injection system. It has absolutely no way of knowing what is coming out of the header. It is pretty extensively programmed and has a sensor in the airbox, gear position indicators etc. From testing the designers knew it would be getting more air at higher speeds so the mixture curve is richened in different areas in 5th and 6th gear. More on that later.
A power commander (PC) is added after the ECU. Adding a PC modifies the injector pulse width that the ECU sent to the injector. The ECU doesn’t have a way of knowing it even happened. There is no O2 sensor to “say hey wait a minute cut that back a bitâ€. When we select 5 or 6 and hit the area where the ECU says more fuel, the PC still adds or subtracts from that additional fuel. The PC does not know what gear you are in (to my knowledge).
So let’s fool the ECU by telling it we are in 5th gear all of the time. If you are already lean in the lower gears, you might see a performance improvement because you are closer to the correct A/F, however it will be the same in 5th. Did you help, maybe….. but you just placed a bandaid on it instead of fixing the problem. Additionally if it was correctly tuned prior to making this change, you are going to hurt the performance as it is going to be richer than desired. Further if you had the bike tuned with a TRE in place you are not going to be adding fuel in the higher gears.
I guess they shouldn't even make a Power Commander or dyno for that matter huh,,,2busa ? It is what it is, and there is nothing you can do about it..(Dang ecu)..
Well I'm definately not a tuner!! But with my seat-o-pants dyno. There is a big difference from stock to my pcIII and the new downloaded map!!!
.. I think your founded knowledge of FI may have gaps in it..There also is alot of babbling ..did anyone notice babbling? just
I think it would be even better with a custom map!! JC just trying to get the guy off ya,,,,lol..
Well I'm definately not a tuner!! But with my seat-o-pants dyno. There is a big difference from stock to my pcIII and the new downloaded map!!!
it's fun to see the input, you have a smidgen of theory, and then boom, you hit your 7 year wall once again. you still do not understand you simply trigger a code with the tre. if you disconnected the wire harness, you'd still did the same thing, even if you attached the tre in-line, you still short to a code in the ecu.... that's what you do. short to code, spit a code, either way you are still stumped and it their in your 7 year scratching head.
last thing i want to hear is j-cheese tell me about fi when he says, 'you don't need a tre''. and can't explain why for the last 7 years. it's not only johnny,but the rest of you not comprehending simple open loop fi.
notice how not one person has commented on an engine seizing caused by a pipe change. why?... because it's burns perfect pre-exhaust. it's crank spin; be it running on sensors or using a digital number throughout the rpm range...forget maps..
you live in denver, a sensor fails, the ecu uses a backup signal. you think the factory will install a dangerously lean signal that high in altitude, or have you figured out that the bike runs all day long in that backup mode, or will melt the busa where it idles. it does neither.
explain how no engine will seize if run on total ecu backup?
you'all are still confused about tre let alone fi being in either loop.
forget the fuel trim crap. first figure out you short the ecu to a code or you short the advancer to a backup code in the ecu. you have little to no control, nor will the bike lean out with all the aftermkt ****.
babble this!
last thing i want to hear is j-cheese tell me about fi when he says, 'you don't need a tre''. and can't explain why for the last 7 years. it's not only johnny,but the rest of you not comprehending simple open loop fi.
notice how not one person has commented on an engine seizing caused by a pipe change. why?... because it's burns perfect pre-exhaust. it's crank spin; be it running on sensors or using a digital number throughout the rpm range...forget maps..
you live in denver, a sensor fails, the ecu uses a backup signal. you think the factory will install a dangerously lean signal that high in altitude, or have you figured out that the bike runs all day long in that backup mode, or will melt the busa where it idles. it does neither.
explain how no engine will seize if run on total ecu backup?
you'all are still confused about tre let alone fi being in either loop.
forget the fuel trim crap. first figure out you short the ecu to a code or you short the advancer to a backup code in the ecu. you have little to no control, nor will the bike lean out with all the aftermkt ****.
babble this!
Man ,,you know everthing !!! You must work at Jiffy Lube.
I think this board should raise some money and do an online presentation or podcast...put Cheese up there.....get someone from Suzuki in Japan that engineers the ECU and fuel injection components and settle this. Having said this...this has been great...and highly educational (even if I don't understand most of it) Would love to hear the voices of these folks go over how the system REALLY works.....with diagrams, and of course 2busa can be on the panel too....with technology, this could be doable cheaply except for a zuki engineer from Japan...perhaps there is one in the U.S. the person that designed the thing should certainly be able to contribute. At the very least, they could just continue this discussion in this thread.
Great entertainment and great education.
Great entertainment and great education.
OK,,,call 'em
Did you ask him in japanese?
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