Hey Tuf, thanks for pushing through all the legend, rumors and folklore, your restating of a tire industry expert's "the way it really is" makes so much sense. Raydog
? for the twisty pro's
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Hey Tuf, thanks for pushing through all the legend, rumors and folklore, your restating of a tire industry expert's "the way it really is" makes so much sense. Raydog
Well damn Raydog, I had no idea you were there at Pridmore's Race School when jim was sharing that information with a few of us inquisitive students.
Next time, stand up Ray, let everybody see you!
Well damn Raydog, I had no idea you were there at Pridmore's Race School when jim was sharing that information with a few of us inquisitive students.
Next time, stand up Ray, let everybody see you!
I don't understand what you mean, do you think I was being sarcastic? I meant it as a compliment to you. Raydog
My apologies Raydog. I thought the way you worded your response you were being a little sarcastic. I was just poking you a little 
I was under the impression heat cycles did have an effect on tires until Jim schooled me a bit. If you ever have opportunity to chat with Jim, don't turn it down. That guy is as sharp as a tack when it comes to tires.
Just a little side note, Dunlop tires now holds the track record at Seattle and Portland by our very own "Mike Sullivan" of SullivanRaceSchool.com. Our only other track located in Spokane has the track record held by Ross DeLong on Pirelli tires.
I was under the impression heat cycles did have an effect on tires until Jim schooled me a bit. If you ever have opportunity to chat with Jim, don't turn it down. That guy is as sharp as a tack when it comes to tires.
Just a little side note, Dunlop tires now holds the track record at Seattle and Portland by our very own "Mike Sullivan" of SullivanRaceSchool.com. Our only other track located in Spokane has the track record held by Ross DeLong on Pirelli tires.
good deal... thanks for the info.. does sound like some racers should still be on street tires then?
No problem bro! After my PP's "stepped out" on me this past summer on the track (90 degree day, I'm 240 and powering out of a sweeper) I switched to Pilot Races....then talked to all the "experts" and got so much contradictory info, it's just nice to read/hear something like "quit worrying how many heat cycles your tires have, they'll be worn out a year before that's an issue". It just cuts through all the smoke and mirrors. And re: warming up tires, that's another one, I think most hi po riders go at 70-80% for the 1st 5 minutes anyways, I never forsee myself crashing because of cold tires. Take care, Raydog
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?? now this brings back an issue to me... if he is saying "heat cycling" is not an issue on race tires based on the fact that they are used up after only 1 or 2 sessions, that says little to the issue on a race tire that is being heated repeatedly on a street ridden bike..
I see the "it does not matter" in racing conditions or if the tire is used up in one day during 1 or 2 sessions.. Just thinking this could be a different issue on race tires if repeated over weeks or months on a street ridden machine..
I do have an email off to him to see if I can get a bit of clarification when he has time to reply...
Well, my bottom line is that I will use the best hi perf street tires for the street and put race tires on for the 2-3 times I do track days per year....I won't buy tire warmers simply because it's warm-hot where I live when I'm on the track (between sessions I touched my parked tires and they were in the sun and HOT)....Just do the 1st 3/4 lap conservatively. It'll just be the inconvenience of switching out tires each track day...so what, it just makes sense to me. BTW, my Pilot Races have been through one intense track day and two hipo 4-6 hour canyon rides and still have plenty left in them, it's just that they are only in their element on the street when you are pounding the canyons on warm days, all other street conditions make them inappropropriate! Raydog
I keep the track tires mounted on one set of wheels and the street tires on another. Switching between street and track is litereally minutes.
I just rode 18, 173, 38, Big Bear, Crestline this AM on my race BT-003's. Ambient temp was around 58 degrees F and prolly high 30's near Lake Arrowhead and Big Bear. I could NOT get them up to temp no matter how hard I tried. Rather, I couldn't even ride hard enough to get to the point of it being confidence inspiring to create that optimum operating sticky temp. I lost the front a bunch of times, saved it while on my knee. Pucker moments for sure. I'm sure a street tire would've been a WAY better choice for these colder climates. I didn't use warmers prior to going out to the canyons this AM. I just did some 160 mph runs on a straight, braked really hard, and repeated just to try to get heat. I got heat alright, on the center of the tire. But the edge had quite a bit less heat due to no aggressive riding on sweepers, thus not much heat on edge grip. I set the pressures around 31 F and 29 R. Track pressures are around 27 F and 25 R for 003's. I might try that if I use these tires in the cold. But I highly doubt it'll even help much.
Street tires for canyons=hellz yeah.
Street tires for canyons=hellz yeah.
The newer tires are more resilent to heat cycles. But when you're riding track at A group/club race pace, why risk it? Plus I love the amount of grip available immediately when race tires and the rims have been soaking up heat from warmers. I can go 110% right from the get go and dragging knee by the 1st corner.
But according to Dave Moss of Catalyst Reaction Suspension tuning: Michelins have around 10-12 heat cycles before they finally lose elasticity and adhesiveness. I don't know if he referred to the normal Pilot Race or the PR race compounds of tires. But I could see 10-12 for Michelin PR series, as they're basically the same construction as slicks.
But according to Dave Moss of Catalyst Reaction Suspension tuning: Michelins have around 10-12 heat cycles before they finally lose elasticity and adhesiveness. I don't know if he referred to the normal Pilot Race or the PR race compounds of tires. But I could see 10-12 for Michelin PR series, as they're basically the same construction as slicks.
Cold tears. But that could also be due to improper suspension settings: rebound or compression.
But if you're easy on them for the 1st few laps, they'll be fine. You just have to baby them till they get up to temp. I don't have the patience for that. Plus when you run 20 or 30 minute sessions, a couple "slow" laps will already take up 1/4 of the session; based on 2 mile + tracks.
But if you're easy on them for the 1st few laps, they'll be fine. You just have to baby them till they get up to temp. I don't have the patience for that. Plus when you run 20 or 30 minute sessions, a couple "slow" laps will already take up 1/4 of the session; based on 2 mile + tracks.
You mean $100-250 in a day? We usually do between 7 to 8 twenty-minute (thirty for 2 group formats) sessions. That also depends if the track org takes lunch breaks (7 sessions), and any downtime due to crashes or oil downs.
But yeah....Keeping that tire nice, hot, and sticky for the entire day is how I like it. I usually ride every minute of every session, minus any technical difficulties-which are few and far between. I like to get right to the point and immediately work on my racecraft.
But yeah....Keeping that tire nice, hot, and sticky for the entire day is how I like it. I usually ride every minute of every session, minus any technical difficulties-which are few and far between. I like to get right to the point and immediately work on my racecraft.
well from what I could gather: (and I am an old time racer, I keep track of costs) it used to cost me a cool $1000 a day to go racing (and 15 events a year) in the "non pro" classes.. While racing the "Pro Classes" our costs were $3000 to $10,000 per day and be competitive
I also had to provide accounting reports to our sponsors , entry fees are nothing compared to the rest of the expenses we faced.. (usually only about 5%-10% of our actual costs)
Transport to/from track
Depreciation on Truck/Trailer/Tractor
Tires (or propellers)
Food
Fuel
Hotels
Maintenance on trucks/bike/trailer
Wear and tear on gear (uniforms/safety gear etc)
Entry Fees
and this does not include the "Upgrades" to equipment that can really smart...
I was figuring track day expenses at a minimum $500 a day by the time the dust settles for me to travel 5 hours each way for 2 days..
I also had to provide accounting reports to our sponsors , entry fees are nothing compared to the rest of the expenses we faced.. (usually only about 5%-10% of our actual costs)
Transport to/from track
Depreciation on Truck/Trailer/Tractor
Tires (or propellers)
Food
Fuel
Hotels
Maintenance on trucks/bike/trailer
Wear and tear on gear (uniforms/safety gear etc)
Entry Fees
and this does not include the "Upgrades" to equipment that can really smart...
I was figuring track day expenses at a minimum $500 a day by the time the dust settles for me to travel 5 hours each way for 2 days..
Wow, that's alot of reasons not to use them. The thought was that I was going to get a set of race take offs(4 laps) for around $80 shipped and use those for the Bash and then when I got home, take them off and put my Michelin's back on. My Michelins are good for another 2-3k miles or one more trip to the Gap. Was just trying to prolong their life.
After all the answers here, that is the new plan
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