Frank Adams 1430 update

[OB_n20boy]

Man oh man,
i cant tell you how much I enjoy reading the posts on this site. Anytime there is a frank adams topic it is filled with love and entertainment. To all of you who are so kind to post your opinions here,please keep it up! Its better than a Jerry Springer show.. You guys are a blast. There is nothing like jumping forums to find one of this nature...too cool man! Frank..... are you really serious about the little issue with the zx12 with nitrous,arm, air shifter,progressive control ,lowered with beadlock and a very good rider against your soon to be 1360cc no nitrous hayabusa with arm and so forth?????? this is not a trick question...I have nothing against you at all, I dont know you, i have never seen you race a bike or for that matter a picture of your bike! just wondering if that was a comment out of spite or if you really think that a big bore motor will ever see gains comparable to a forced induction motor!!
please respond..
thanks.
sebastian"my real name"

 

[OB_JohnnyB]

Jamie
1) Overall you have a good point, take everything on here with a grain of salt,
but don't get so upset & personal about it, We're all here because we like fast bikes.

2) You shouldn't attack other peoples spelling if yours is not perfect. (You don't give other people advise, you give them advice, although you can advise them)

3) Be careful what you ask for (fight) because you just might get it.




[This message has been edited by JohnnyB (edited 01 December 1999).]

 

[OB_Dirty Pete]

Bob there's a ton of useful information on this thread.

Like about how the web has introduced an astonishing new set of communications challenges. About VE. About male character and lack of character. About tolerance, F1 rules, multiple user-name posters, solidarity or its absence among .org Members (I find that sickening), humor in the face of frustration, racing etiquette, group power patterns, and a whole lot more.

I know it's all a little "vague", but keep your mind open. Get passionate. Enjoy.

[This message has been edited by Dirty Pete (edited 01 December 1999).]

 

[OB_GSXRTURBO1]

Wow...what a thread! There are SO many good points made here, some by unlikely posters. I would have to agree that the ZX12 has a good head, but it is still a somewhat "limited" motor. The Hayabusa also has a good head, and the longish stroke will only help matters when the engine is made larger. More power at a lower RPM. that doesn't sound too bad, does it? The Kawasaki is limited in terms of size, so Kawasaki built it to take advantage of that limited size. The Suzuki, on the other hand, was not built to anywhere close to being maxxed out, so the engine is a dream come true for people trying to coax more power from it. The ZX12 is no doubt going to be impressive as a STOCK bike, maybe even more impressive than a STOCK Hayabusa. BUT, and thats a big word here, how many people out there will buy these bikes and leave them stock? I am not taking ANY sides here, but you would have to be an idiot to not see the Suzukis potential. Potential, another big word. Yes, there are also people, albeit fewer, that will leave there bikes stock. I really do not want to say this on a Hayabusa board, but I also say what I feel: The Kawasaki will more than likely be a MARGINALLY better performer than the Suzuki. Thats what progress is. Just be glad that Suzuki raised the bar so high, and remember that the ZX12 had to be "re-engineered" once the Hayabusa was released. I predict that Suzuki and Kawasaki will be swapping the "title belt" back and forth.
Also, Maui, wouldn't the piston speed still be the (or a) limiting factor for max RPM, provided the crank, rods, block are strong enough to handle the stresses? Yes, a longer rod is almost always better, as the piston will be "more square" at TDC. I would like to know what Kawasaki had in mind when utilizing a short rod in the ZX12, or was that decision dictated by packaging needs? In any case, as long as valid points are brought up here (and I'm NOT saying my points are necessarily valid) this thread could go on forever, and I really hope it does, sans name calling....Thomas Gafa (GSXRTurbo1)

[This message has been edited by GSXRTURBO1 (edited 01 December 1999).]

 

[viol8r]

JohnnyB, your #3 had me interested(for money) for awhile. While in paramedic class last night the instructor was going over different traumas to the head and thorax and I was thinking how lucky I've been to have never killed anyone and I don't think I ever want to hit anyone again.

 

[OB_KawAbuser]

Jamie, "Jamie posts a rare reasonable post and everyone is an english tutor."

If you read this again I was being supportive of you to a degree, as I didn't think the thread was about spell checking.

If you notice me to type misinformation, please correct me. If I have in the past please inform me now. I never say to anyone I am faster, smarter, or can spell better than anyone. The only thing I piss about is the "Kawasaki is king shi*" that is tossed into the Hayabusa site by a few, I really dont care but courtesy would be that I dont go to ZX12r and spew it either. If you yell FIRE in a theatre and there is no fire then you deserved to be run over.

This thread was also heading its way to be a script for MTV's Claymation Boxing Hayabusa.org vs ZX12r site.

I do my best to offer some information about part numbers and some obscure pieces I find along the way of working on my own bike, if you find me to be incorrect let me know.

Want to buy a set of Electrons, cheap?

 

[OB_ducmanic]

KawAbuser,
What if you go to a crowded fire and yell
"Theater"
Abbie Hoffman
LA


[This message has been edited by ducmanic (edited 01 December 1999).]

 

[OB_KawAbuser]

No, but I would like to see this in Claymation.

Ducmanic, there is a funny idea for you and the Clayman to work on, your site is very cool by the way. I can not get the mpegs to play even though I have all the right plug ins for my Netscape 4.7.

Celebrity Biker Match, stay tuned comming to a channel on your cable box!

 

[OB_ducmanic]

KawAbuser,
Some people are having player problems some of the time. We'll fix it soon. Clay
and i have commissioned a board designer to build up something for LAbusas.org. This
will take a few days (Its in the mail). What's Claymation? You mean like animation??
I had a system failure earlier tonight while installing my first DSL line. What a
good time nightmare-
ducmanic

[This message has been edited by ducmanic (edited 01 December 1999).]

 

[Guest]

Jamie... If you can stick to technical subjects and avoid the personal ones you'll enjoy considerably more respect here.

Frank... Once again thanx for sharing your experience both good and bad.

Brock... Welcome. I'm looking forward to hearing from you more often. It isn't often we get one of the heavies in here.

Maui & Pete entertaining and occassionally informative as always.

ZX12 vs Busa WGAF.

 

[Frank Adams]

n20boy: the way i see it neither one of us are in a situation to race either bike right now.

one of us doesn't even have the bike... or the mods to be discussing racing at all.

and the other doesn't even have a complete motor as we speak.

my goals are to work with this 1360 package first. and see what or if i can get any descent hp out of it. then i'll think about doing some racing....

 

[OB_n20boy]

Frank,
Are you directing one of those comments towards me? I can tell you right now I dont have a zx12 with all the trim...it was a hypothetical question regarding your comment to fastzx9 about a zx12 with nitrous against your hayabusa. I wish you all the luck in your quest for hp with the busa ...Im sure you will find it one way or the other.

 

[OB_GSXRTURBO1]

Hey Dirty Pete, nice to see someone else follows F1, I do, religiously. I do have to disagree with you though, on Ferraris intentions. The barge boards were known to be illegal before the race, as was the planned defense at using them. Ferrari tried to win that race by any means necessary, and succeeded (the decision to disqualify the Ferraris was overturned on appeal, something that has only been done 2 times in the past 30 or so years). Ferrari wants to win probably more than any other team out there, and they will stop at nothing to do so. I admire their tenacity, but do not approve of their methods. I also cannot stand Michael Schumacher, tolerate Eddie Irvine, tolerate Davis Coulthard, and Mika Hakkinen is my favorite driver. Yes, I'm probably "somewhat" biased, and might not think the same if the roles of Ferrari and McClaren were reversed. Believe it or not, there is a point to all of this. Just about every poster on this forum (with a few obvious exceptions) has something to say. Depending on which side of the fence you are on, what that person says may offend you, or you may nod in agreement. Motorcycles arouse a fierce passion in all of us, and as such we are so very passionate in what we BELIEVE to be the truth. The truth is not always the same for everyone, this particular topic surely is evidence of that. What a great site, I enjoy all of it, epecially posts by CBXChris, Maui, Frank Adams and a few others. I may not always agree with you guys but what you say makes me think, and usually opens my eyes to what you are trying to tell me. Please please please keep it up, I'm addicted...Thomas Gafa

 

[Guest]

I haven't seen any evidence that Ferrari received a performance advantage from the minute infraction that occurred. Even McLaren admitted that much. However they did break the rules but were able to avoid repurcusions. I believe they were allowed to slide by the FIA in order to maintain the competition in the final race. I personally like McLaren but try to step back and look at the entire picture and the huge amount of politics taking place in F1. I've seen Ferrari pull some slick moves but this wasn't one of them. The item in question was too close to spec to provide any real advantage but technically was in fact out of spec.

It's better that Mika won the championship the way he did rather than Ferrari having defaulted on this type of infraction. Otherwise Ferrari and its followers would have been screaming for the next year that the championship was 'taken' from them.

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 02 December 1999).]

 

[OB_Dirty Pete]

Turbo it would be tough to have a debate on the barge boards on a thread this size, but I agree that Ferrari's defence was prepared in advance...it was built right into the boards!

They didn't cover it up between heats because they knew it was illegal IMHO, but because like the Australian 12 meter boat with the winged keel, they didn't want their competitors to see their clever design and copy it.

It was a brilliant solution to improve performance while staying within the "single plane" rule. Their execution was just off by a few millimeters. If Ferrai had made the shadow plate long enough, then the curved barge board would have been legal and the record books would look a little different.

Agree with you on Schumacher. He's a bastard of a human being. But I can only admire a guy who is so ruthless about winning and so awesomely talented on the road. His recovery from the accident was freakish. And you've got to hand it to him the way he handled the politics of re-integrating into the team after his recuperation.

I love F1 because the money in it lets the players take every aspect of the sport right over the top. The machines are more advanced and current to technology than fighter planes and unlike fighter planes, which are improved maybe every 10 years, F1 cars are improved every day.

Ernest Hemingway said "There are only three sports, bull fighting, mountain climbing and motor racing. Everything else is just a game."

 

[Guest]

Interesting to see that I'm not the only one with a love/hate relationship when in comes to Shumi! Sometimes I want to ring that whining baby's neck and other times I'm just agast in awe at his talent. I suppose there were many that thought the same about my all time favorite Senna.

 

[OB_GSXRTURBO1]

Todd, I feel the same way about Senna. He was just incredible.

 

[Frank Adams]

n20boy: misunderstanding all the way! but i was really counting on you coming up with this setup you were talking about. it would give me something to look forward to but i'm sure there will be alot of that coming here in the near future......take care, Sebastain!

GSXRTURBO1(Thomas Gafa): i've been wanting to tell you for the last couple of days that i agree 100% with the reply you gave on dec 1st.
pretty much what went on was that Suzuki had to set the standard for this new breed. kaw went back to drawing board because they knew they had failed before they ever got started.

now, they've put this into production and guess what?
Suzuki only needs to do a slight bit of mods before they get into production on there 2,000 model and it's UP! to the TOP again on everything!

thats what i call....having the edge

one thing here, if they do release before the zx12, i think thats when we might see some of the info thats been needed to really unleash the Busa.
things that will allow us to get inside the ecm and do some playing around with the programing(ignition, timing, rev-limiter and so on). if not Suzuki themselfs, then look for it to be released to the aftermarket industry.

just a thought?

.....Frank

 

[Frank Adams]

test.

sorry!

[This message has been edited by frank adams (edited 03 December 1999).]

 

[OB_maui]

GSXRTURBO1

I missed your question on piston speed

"Wouldn't the piston speed still be the (or a) limiting factor for max RPM, provided the crank, rods, block are strong enough to handle the stresses?"

Good question. If you look at other engine designs, you'll note that there is no single factor more important than how much air you can pump, and how fast you can pump it. Take a blown motor, valve float or ignition, is usually what limits the ability to rev.

But what is the "red line". Other than the annoying little marks on a tach? Is it where the power stops, or declines? Where mechanical damage will happen? What usually stops me, is valve float (damage). But if there is no power at higher Rpms, why bother to go there?

Could longer stroke vs a shorter stroke be more important than piston speed? A shorter stroke will definitely have the advantage in Rpms, but when will you sacrifice torque to achieve power?

It seems to me the weight of the piston is what will determine any problem as it relates to Rpms (as the connecting rod will fail). Also, a heavy piston is harder to accelerate/decelerate, so is the crankshaft or flywheel for that matter. But piston speed as it relates to RPM, doesn't limit (to me any way). Maybe we're looking at the same thing? But assuming you have a relatively light piston, I think there are other areas to explore. Rod length is a huge topic when it comes to making power. Its leverage past the crank can surely limit the ability to rev. My answer to "red line" question; limitations lay in the cylinder head (unless you have boost) more than anywhere else. After that, rod ratios come in too play.

Piston speed (as it relates to rpm) may be the symptom of the problem, not the cause.

I'd love to hear more on this topic. I KNOW some one out there has a better answer to this than I do!


[This message has been edited by maui (edited 03 December 1999).]