YES!If your racing on the street and need track techniques to make it through the turn -- YOUR GOING WAAAAAAAAAAY TOO FAST
Front brakes saved my life: but question.
- Thread starter steelhead
- Start date
I think in this situation since the rear was already losing traction and sliding out, if you touch the rear brake it would increase the sliding. If you're going to use both brakes it would be best to have been using it before you started weaving the rear.
I use the front 99.99% of the time and the rear ONLY if I'm going perfectly straight and not weaving. And then only a slight touch. This is after one too many times of the rear hopping out sideways.
One more thing, make sure you're all the way off the throttle. (now the rear is pushing the front) I've found myself emergency braking and not slowing down like I should and realized I hadn't rolled all the way off the throttle.
I use the front 99.99% of the time and the rear ONLY if I'm going perfectly straight and not weaving. And then only a slight touch. This is after one too many times of the rear hopping out sideways.
One more thing, make sure you're all the way off the throttle. (now the rear is pushing the front) I've found myself emergency braking and not slowing down like I should and realized I hadn't rolled all the way off the throttle.
Now that I can agree with, 100%YES!If your racing on the street and need track techniques to make it through the turn -- YOUR GOING WAAAAAAAAAAY TOO FAST
--Wag--
Hey, you're blowing our cover there, Charles!Leaving Wag and Nanwag out of it, those 2 practice emergency braking for half a day in a parking lot (kudos to them) every month, the average motorcyclists doesn't practice emergency braking.
Sadly, most street survival skills don't get practiced nearly as often as they should. Turning, throttle control, braking, braking in turns, position on the bike, handgrip, etc. etc. etc. all should be practiced over and over and over again. Frequent and regular apply.
ESPECIALLY if you switch back and forth between driving a car and driving a bike. Specific to the rear brake, for example, the foot pressure required on both of our vehicles is probably 20 to 50 times what's require to rear brake on the Busa, more for the Gixxer. I've noticed that EVERY time I get on the bike, I have to spend a few moments "re-tuning" my rear brake foot to get it right again.
Also, when you drive a car, your body is far less involved in the operation of the vehicle. (If you race cars, I assume the full harness allows you to get more physically involved but that's far beyond my experience.) Your arms get a lot of motion for hard turns but usually only at low speed and your feet and legs move a little bit for braking and throttle though both are done with MUCH higher application pressures than you'll ever use on the bike.
Then you jump on the bike one fine weekend morning after a week of commuting in your car and all hell breaks loose 'cause your habit is counter intuitive. When you're on a bike, the whole body is highly involved, even if you don't focus on it. If you turn your attention to all the differences, it can actually turn the tide in your favor when you're riding out there.
Just some thoughts based on my personal observations. I'm sure there are things I haven't noticed yet and I've certainly not made an in-depth dialogue about my thoughts on this here.
Back to the original thought, learning to use your rear brakes in a straight line can save your butt (it has mine) and using it in a trail braking fashion on high speed cornering can improve your times. Just be damn careful and get a coach before you start trying it or you COULD die out there.
--Wag--
Ha ha ha ha!!Hey, you're blowing our cover there, Charles!Leaving Wag and Nanwag out of it, those 2 practice emergency braking for half a day in a parking lot (kudos to them) every month, the average motorcyclists doesn't practice emergency braking.
I only mentioned so it might inspire someone to practice emergency braking. I don't even practice it enough...
Go up and re-read Project, Truwrecks and WWJD's posts in that order from top to bottom. Learn it, Love it, LIVE it!
And since you don't ever use the back brake, you can lighten up the bike by just taking it off along with the foot pedal. That should save you a couple of pounds
I just can't understand why they put one on the bike anyway since they make you crash
Geezzzzzz, if you don't use it, loose it
I was like many of you for quite some time. I used the rear brake to trail brake, keeping the rear aligned with the front. Some of my racer friends told me time and time again to stay off the rear brake but I had been riding motorcycles longer than some of them had been alive. I knew how to use the rear brake and I did not listen.
However, on one warm October day a few years ago, I was on a Hayabusa only three months since brand new. I was having a blast on a twisty back road when I came up a long straight stretch which turned into a pretty tight right handed corner. I got on the front brakes hard to burn off as much speed as I needed to enter the corner safely. As fate would have it, while on the front brakes hard and the bike standing straight up, I gave the rear brake a little nudge, just a tiny one and instantly the rear steped out to the right. What I should have done was let go of the front brake and maintained a little rear brake but my instinct told me to let go of the sliding rear tire which I did. That puppy instantly went into the tank slapper from hell, ripping the bars from my hands with evil intent. The bars went from side to side hitting the stops on both sides so fast it sounded like a chatter and from the time I let go of the rear brake until I was airborne in the horizontal position about eight feet off the ground was less than a second. I hit the pavement at somewhere between 70 & 80 MPH and from there it was a race to see which one of us (The bike or me) entered the woods first? Well, it so happened we both arrived about the same time. When the dust settled, I felt everything to make sure it still worked and no broken bones. Once I sat up and looked for the shinny new busa, I could see busa parts scattered down the road for a couple hundred feet or so and there lay my prized busa all twisted up like a pretzel. Just not much left of her since she went the distance end over end.
So the moral of that story is, before that crash I had the attitude like many of you, if the rear brake wasn't meant to be used there wouldn't be a pedal on the right foot. Now days, I ride with my toe on the foot peg so I can't get to the brake pedal even if I'm temped to do so. I learned my lesson the hard way and at least some of you nonbelievers will eventually learn the hard way as well.
Slow speeds around town, the rear brake will not threaten your life but when you are twisting the throttle and have the wind buffeting the back of your jacket, if you are wise you will leave the rear brake alone. If you are foolish enough to stand on the front brake at speed and thing the rear will help you keep her under control, keep your health insurance premiums paid. It's in your best interest.
Attend one of Mike Sullivan's Race Schools and he will do his best to hammer home the point of "Stay off the rear brake". Mike Sullivan is Probably the fastest guy in the state at age 48 and been racing motorcycles since kindergarden. Mike says the number one cause of inexperienced riders crashing is the use of the rear brake!
I you know how to use the rear brake like many racers do to step the rear out when entering a corner and keep it spinning through the corner, great! If you can't, you'll be wise to stay far away from the rear brake when you are riding hard.
If you still have doubts, just take your prized busa out on a nice lonely back road and run her up near tripple digits and stand on the front brake as hard as you can and once the rear is skitching from lack of traction, tap the rear brake gently (It only takes a slight nudge) and see what happens. As long as the rear wheel is touching the pavement an rolling it will stay behind you but if you touch the brake with little to no traction on the rear, it WILL instantly lock up and you are most likely going for a ride you won't soon forget
However, on one warm October day a few years ago, I was on a Hayabusa only three months since brand new. I was having a blast on a twisty back road when I came up a long straight stretch which turned into a pretty tight right handed corner. I got on the front brakes hard to burn off as much speed as I needed to enter the corner safely. As fate would have it, while on the front brakes hard and the bike standing straight up, I gave the rear brake a little nudge, just a tiny one and instantly the rear steped out to the right. What I should have done was let go of the front brake and maintained a little rear brake but my instinct told me to let go of the sliding rear tire which I did. That puppy instantly went into the tank slapper from hell, ripping the bars from my hands with evil intent. The bars went from side to side hitting the stops on both sides so fast it sounded like a chatter and from the time I let go of the rear brake until I was airborne in the horizontal position about eight feet off the ground was less than a second. I hit the pavement at somewhere between 70 & 80 MPH and from there it was a race to see which one of us (The bike or me) entered the woods first? Well, it so happened we both arrived about the same time. When the dust settled, I felt everything to make sure it still worked and no broken bones. Once I sat up and looked for the shinny new busa, I could see busa parts scattered down the road for a couple hundred feet or so and there lay my prized busa all twisted up like a pretzel. Just not much left of her since she went the distance end over end.
So the moral of that story is, before that crash I had the attitude like many of you, if the rear brake wasn't meant to be used there wouldn't be a pedal on the right foot. Now days, I ride with my toe on the foot peg so I can't get to the brake pedal even if I'm temped to do so. I learned my lesson the hard way and at least some of you nonbelievers will eventually learn the hard way as well.
Slow speeds around town, the rear brake will not threaten your life but when you are twisting the throttle and have the wind buffeting the back of your jacket, if you are wise you will leave the rear brake alone. If you are foolish enough to stand on the front brake at speed and thing the rear will help you keep her under control, keep your health insurance premiums paid. It's in your best interest.
Attend one of Mike Sullivan's Race Schools and he will do his best to hammer home the point of "Stay off the rear brake". Mike Sullivan is Probably the fastest guy in the state at age 48 and been racing motorcycles since kindergarden. Mike says the number one cause of inexperienced riders crashing is the use of the rear brake!
I you know how to use the rear brake like many racers do to step the rear out when entering a corner and keep it spinning through the corner, great! If you can't, you'll be wise to stay far away from the rear brake when you are riding hard.
If you still have doubts, just take your prized busa out on a nice lonely back road and run her up near tripple digits and stand on the front brake as hard as you can and once the rear is skitching from lack of traction, tap the rear brake gently (It only takes a slight nudge) and see what happens. As long as the rear wheel is touching the pavement an rolling it will stay behind you but if you touch the brake with little to no traction on the rear, it WILL instantly lock up and you are most likely going for a ride you won't soon forget
This is the reason I think everyone should take motorcycle classes. It has been a long time for me, but we practiced using both brakes properly. If you use both brakes correctly and do not put to much weight on your right bar. you will stay going forward. on a hard brake, there is the chance the back wheel may come up a little. Find an empty parking lot and practice. Each time stopping faster and giving more brake. braking is 70% front and 30% back. If you practice enough, when the time comes, it is natural to use both brakes and you will know haow fast the bike will stop and be able to keep the back tire down. I remember when I was first learning to ride, my dad made me do a backie. Not anything crazy, but just so I would know what it felt like and was not scared when it happened so that I could adust my breaking to keep from crashing. I am not saying that you should try to stunt on a Busa, but it helps to know what it feels like to have the back tire either lockup and recover and also what it takes to have the back tire lift a little and be able to recover. Practice,Practice,Practice..... Breaking is way to important to not practice the basic principles and wait for that one time you need to stop really fast....
Thanks for a post that makes sense...
Chances are SteelHead you are not holding on with your thighs and you in fact were resting far to much of your weight on the bars. Under braking, HARD braking your own tension and weight probably resulted in what you "felt".
It's all about the front brakes.
It's all about the front brakes.
Practicing your braking in a parking lot is not going to help you with high speed braking. What you need my friend, is some time and instruction on the track with a professional. Most of the instructors I've seen have never been on a track and most ride cruisers. Would you prefer this safety class instructor who rode his Gold Wing to the class which is put on in a parking lot with cones or would you rather go out with a guy in beat up leathers who has been down a dozen times (This season) and breaking from 170 MPH is common practice on every lap? Your safety class instructor most likely has never been down unless he tipped over in a parking lot.Thanks for the information. I am going to print it off and keep it for reference.
Thank you for all your advice.
I was really happy to not crash. Time to keep studying techniques.
Appreciatively,
SteelHead
If you want to know and understand the pit falls of improper braking and how to brake properly, head to your local track and hire yourself an instructor for the day. You'll learn things there that you will never learn in a MC safety class. A safety class is fine if you never exceed the posted speed limit or if you are trying to get the training wheels off your scooter. If you intend to twist the throttle of your busa, then you should know how to untwist it without hurting yourself.
Continue using the rear brake if you like but just keep in mind the demon called the "Highside Snake" is coiled and ready to strike in a split second!
Tufbusa, you bring up some excellent points - thank you.
I gave up on the rear brake some years ago. I have my brake pedal adjusted so I can not tap it unless I intend to...as MidnightBusainSD said when he rode my bike "That suker is down there - how can you reach it?". Well I have it this way for darn good reason, and that is to stay off the darn thing.
Everyone is going to ride at different levels, and everyone will do things their own particular way. I've learned to use my legs to hold myself on the bike. I cover both cluthch/ front brake with 2 fingers at all times, and put almost no weight on my wrists...why transfer upper body forces into the bars...not a good thing.
I make sure to look through my turns, and try to give myself enough room to make decisions at whatever speed Im traveling - my comfort level, not someone else's. The rear brake at the wrong time, can put you into even a worse situation than you had, before you put your right foot on it. The rear brake can wash out your rear end faster than you can say "oh Schnibit"!
Some people will say...Hey dude, I ride in the city with heavy traffic...I have to use the rear brake. Err, yah ok...ever try to make a moderate to higher speed swerve with your rear brake on? Im not talking about fast steering here, Im talking about lifting your rump off the comfy seat, and moving your body side to side with the bike to perform this manuver. I won't take away my option to swerve in city traffic, so I stay off the rear brake. Think about breaking forces, and then think about how much of that Dollar-bill your spending (Keith Code) performing this. The rear brake has spent more of my dollar than I cared to part with in the past, so unless my dollar starts stretching further than it has in the past, I will only allow a few pennies of my cash to be spent on the rear brake - ever.
I gave up on the rear brake some years ago. I have my brake pedal adjusted so I can not tap it unless I intend to...as MidnightBusainSD said when he rode my bike "That suker is down there - how can you reach it?". Well I have it this way for darn good reason, and that is to stay off the darn thing.
Everyone is going to ride at different levels, and everyone will do things their own particular way. I've learned to use my legs to hold myself on the bike. I cover both cluthch/ front brake with 2 fingers at all times, and put almost no weight on my wrists...why transfer upper body forces into the bars...not a good thing.
I make sure to look through my turns, and try to give myself enough room to make decisions at whatever speed Im traveling - my comfort level, not someone else's. The rear brake at the wrong time, can put you into even a worse situation than you had, before you put your right foot on it. The rear brake can wash out your rear end faster than you can say "oh Schnibit"!
Some people will say...Hey dude, I ride in the city with heavy traffic...I have to use the rear brake. Err, yah ok...ever try to make a moderate to higher speed swerve with your rear brake on? Im not talking about fast steering here, Im talking about lifting your rump off the comfy seat, and moving your body side to side with the bike to perform this manuver. I won't take away my option to swerve in city traffic, so I stay off the rear brake. Think about breaking forces, and then think about how much of that Dollar-bill your spending (Keith Code) performing this. The rear brake has spent more of my dollar than I cared to part with in the past, so unless my dollar starts stretching further than it has in the past, I will only allow a few pennies of my cash to be spent on the rear brake - ever.
bigoltool
Registered
I got a chance to prove some of these theories just this morning! I was riding to work and I am following this old 66 Mustang. I was actually daydreaming a little like I damn well know I shouldn’t be, when I noticed that the Mustang was suddenly a lot closer to me than he had been a millisecond earlier. No brake lights at all! And he is stopping hard. I instantly grab a handful and clench the tank with my knees. And wouldn’t you know it I found myself dabbing the rear brake pedal ever so slightly, to just hear the rear tire chirp a little! Brought it safely to a halt and went on my way. Now under normal circumstances I rarely ever use my rear brake for anything but reigning in an errant wheelie or holding position at a stop light. So I found it funny that I would actually use my rear brake in a panic stop??? Never thought about it, never practiced it, just happened. Instinct I guess? I went on my way analyzing that scene a bit and I guess I really don’t know what to think. I know damn well I was using all the brakes my trusty Busa had to offer for sure and my sticky tires did their part. I am sure I should have been paying more attention to where I was but when the time came I did exactly what I needed to do when I needed to do it so I was actually pretty proud of myself for that one.
Be safe out there!
Be safe out there!
Just remember to PRACTICE... Head to a parking lot and practice practice practice panic stops, MAX braking stops...
If you find yourself using the rear? Be sure to practice with it as well...
Doing this will save your life someday.
Just remember to give that front abou ta half second to load before REALLY applying the power. Never SNAP the front brakes on. You can lock up your front before it's properly loaded. this is what you have to develop a feel for.
Lot's of practice and getting a feel for how the bike works right up to locking the front tire will give you the confidence to reall hit em' when you have too.
Just don't forget, that brakes are wonderful for saving your life, but don't forget about the guy behind you in the full size GMC pickup. Don't make yourself a hood ornament.
Brakes will save you life, but so will a good swerve and a little throttle sometimes.
If you find yourself using the rear? Be sure to practice with it as well...
Doing this will save your life someday.
Just remember to give that front abou ta half second to load before REALLY applying the power. Never SNAP the front brakes on. You can lock up your front before it's properly loaded. this is what you have to develop a feel for.
Lot's of practice and getting a feel for how the bike works right up to locking the front tire will give you the confidence to reall hit em' when you have too.
Just don't forget, that brakes are wonderful for saving your life, but don't forget about the guy behind you in the full size GMC pickup. Don't make yourself a hood ornament.
Brakes will save you life, but so will a good swerve and a little throttle sometimes.
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