help the marine that killed the insurgent enemy

[stkr00]

I would sign the petition but since I work for the DOD I am not sure the political/legal issues that can arise from my signature.

You can do whatever you want as long as you do it as a civilian, and NOT as a DOD employee. You just have to make sure that you do not use any Gov't owned property to make you vote, and only give you civilian name/address on any documents.

Hope this helps

 

[paineless4u]

I am a GS employee for the AF. Civilian, but a Col is my boss. I'll wait till I get home and sign the petition.

 

[thrasherfox]

I would sign the petition but since I work for the DOD I am not sure the political/legal issues that can arise from my signature.

I am DoD. The thought quickly passed through my mind, so I made sure I used my personal email address and not my government address.

As long as you participate as an individual and not do it in away that is deemed as being a representative of the government you are free to do as you will.

Usually the only problems you would have is if your employer found out about activities and disapproved on a personal level (such as joining a peace protest or something else that was negative or harmful to the government)

Singing a petition in favor of a military member I doubt would cause in grief.

I signed it from work using my civilian email address

 

[Mrs. Revlis]

So... let me get this straight.  The "executed" man "might have" been faking, and "might have" been intending harm, so it's a good thing that our soldier went ahead and killed him - just in case.  I mean, there had been similar incidents just recently, right?  So that makes it OK.

By that same logic, the 24 year old Saudi Arabian guy who got on the airplane "might have" been a terrorist, and "might have" intended to blow up the plane, so it's a good thing that our police went ahead and locked him up - just in case.  I mean, there had been similar incidents recently, right?  So that makes it OK.

And a step further:  The teen at the local high school who wore black clothes to school "might have" been hiding a gun in his coat, and "might have" been intending to kill other students, so it's a good thing that school security tackled him and suspended him - just in case.  I mean, there had been similar incidents recently, right?  So that makes it OK.

And how about this:  The Post Office worker who showed up in a grumpy mood "might have" been a disgruntled employee, and "might have" intended to start sniping people left and right, so it's a good thing that he got sent straight to jail without a trial - just in case.  I mean, there had been similar incidents before, right?  So that makes it OK.

"Might have" has never been a valid reason for clearly unethical actions.  In the course of duty, I am a strong supporter of our troops.  But by no means will I be party to excusing murder on the grounds of "might have".  I mean - you "might have" been intending to speed and split lanes on your great big motorcycle, which "might have" caused an accident, so I guess it's OK if the old lady runs you off the road... just in case.

We, as americans, promote certain "inalienable" rights to all humans, regardless of their nationality (they don't have to be American). We have always upheld the ideal of fair treatment, innocence until proof of guilt, and punishments that are just for the crime commited. Execution of an unarmed and submissive enemy does not reflect our stance on freedom and democracy. A vote in favor of this sort of action is very little different from a vote in favor of a quarterless war... and that amounts to genocide. The argument that anyone who knew about the war had plenty of time to flee their home town and leave their belongings behind, is an argument for unchecked murder of anyone who remains.

Of course - this is just MY opinion on the matter.



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[stkr00]

The argument that anyone who knew about the war had plenty of time to flee their home town and leave their belongings behind, is an argument for unchecked murder of anyone who remains.

Of course - this is just MY opinion on the matter.

Yes, that about sums it up.

We need to try to understand the context of the scenario. The Marines are on edge due to all of the suicide bombers and booby trapped bodies, so I could see how it would be easy for them to take the action that they did. However...

I It all goes back to training. These soldiers are some of the best trained warriors in the world. They are trained to be able to make combat decisions while under stress and fire, and after having little or no sleep for days. So, on your side, they should be able to remain calm, and collected no matter what, and make decisions based on the rules.

Now, think about this. Think about all of your living family and friends that you hold dear in your life. Imagine if a group of people started hurting and killing them one by one. Some were killed by tricks and deception of the group. Some of these people weren't just killed, but yet are now forced to live the rest of their lives maimed and disfigured because of something that group did. If you now saw that group of people walking down your street and coming toward your house, would you sit there and do nothing? Or would you take some type of action to protect yourself and the remaining loved ones around you?

Although these are grown men, these Marines are also part of a brotherhood of soldiers that have a bond that most of us will NEVER understand. When they have to fight day after day, and see there brothers killed and wounded, it wears on them, and makes them callus to things that would turn most people's stomachs.

War is Hell! There's no way around it.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to have the other SOB die for his. I think that was from Gen. Patton.

 

[moondog]

done.....I'd sign it a million times if I could. It's war, if ya gonna do it, do it. I have a huge amount of respect for our troops. Until you've been there and seen your buddy die because of a wounded rag head, shut the F**K up. Turn it into glass and let GOD sort them out....gonna happen anyway.

 

[paineless4u]

One thing I think we all agree on is it is war. Ya know is easy to judge someones actions when not being there yourself. Until you've been there most don't have a leg to stand on. I couldn't imagine running around day and night getting shot at from all angles with no sleep, I would think it was just a really bad nightmare, and a really long one at that.

 

[Thinker62]

I think that we are focussing on the wrong issue. To argue about whether it is war, whether the enemy are soldiers, whether, they are terrorists, etc is just arguing over symantics. It really doesn't matter. If you ask any soldier, and they put aside emotion and tell the truth, they will tell you that the following is absolutely false:

"And yes you can kill at will, that's war."

They will tell you that they have very specific RULES OF ENGAGEMENT for their behavior on the battlefield. They will tell you that killing unarmed soldiers, civilians, terrorists, nazis, liberals, militia, or democrats would all violate those rules. It does not matter what you call the enemy or what adjective you use to describe the conflict. Charlesbusa and I dissagree, but he actually hit the nail on the head when he said:

"The only rules that apply are the ones our own military/country/people uses."

Those soldiers who abused & tortured the captured prisoners got in trouble because they broke our rules.....the rules of the United States. What this guy allegedly (innocent till proven guilty) did violates our own rules as well, and that is why he is in trouble. But perhaps all the facts aren't in. Perhaps the soldier saw a threat. Perhaps the enemy had something in his hand, or made a suspicious move, or looked like he was hiding something. PERCEPTION IS THE KEY QUESTION. If the soldier perceived a threat, he did the right thing. Under those conditions, he would be justified. But if he just pulled the trigger because he felt like it, or because he enjoyed it, and there wasn't a justified threat, he violated the rules.

Without being there, none of us can say what really happened, but the way that piece was written, and from what I have heard of the video, nobody is talking about a real or perceived threat at that exact moment. If that writter wants to sell me on the petition, he needs to do a better job establishing that there was a real and/or perceived threat.

 

[RidersNation]

Ok I have to Step up to This One:

The factors here are this:

1. It's called discretionary decision making.
The basis for law and order. Replay this one and let's say the soldier didn't shoot him. He Might have been a statistic. On the other hand, during an intense traumatic event, nobody can say for sure, what any human being, terrorist, soldier, law-abiding citizen is capable of.

Mostly all of the people in our population, in normal civilized conditions, will never or have never seen what exactly a human being in desperation or pure imminent danger is capable of. Unfortunately, I have been exposed to some really bad people in my former line of work. I will never believe that there is an excuse for pure evil. I am saddened just as most kind caring folks at the daily headlines. I am neither de-sensitized or comfortable about reading about it. The latest one today really got to me. In Mexico a Mob of Angry Neighborhood vigilantes (read Residents) beat, stabbed,
bludgeoned, and set on fire with gasoline, Federal Agents trying to work a case at a school.

GRAPHIC CAUTION! http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139487,00.html

I can see the point of the Geneva convention if this was a civilized Planet. But it's not entirely that way. Live by the Sword Die by the Sword, but shame on you if you play the game and quit.

That is the basis for law and order. To bring about peace.
People do not look at the United States the way they used to.

It is method over resolve on this one. How far will the next act move the bar. We cannot be weak, but we cannot expect to utilize the same level of caution or restraint to overcome obstacles.

2.) The Media representation of events. So many things shown across the airwaves are censored and distributed in ways that are beneficial and also damaging to the subjects on either side of an issue. Just look at history, The Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WW1 & 2, The Romans, the Mongols, The overtaking of the Indians, All of the Wars in Africa, these events happened. All of the things that are shown as new trends in behavior or unbelievable acts are not new, they have just been brought to light. Murder has been happening since the beginning of time. Even in nature, when something out of the ordinary is exposed, it's usually ten times more unbelievable than our own imaginations can conjure.  

Just as always HERE and in the world. Take into consideration the views. Maybe you do not agree, maybe you do.

But at the same time what is Right is Right.  No one can Judge but You know who. And I don't mean Judy, Wopner or that meanass guy from Texas.

This is the Path of Man. Truth is the only petition that will matter to that guy (soldier) is one from either his peers or his enemies.

Respect Thrasher, and anyone for standing up for his beliefs. Whether we stand beside, behind or in front of him. But Do not let the commom thread we all share HERE be broken.

Haybusas forever.
R'sN



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[RidersNation]

Also I believe that someone held up their hand,...

"All Enemies Foreign and Domestic..."

 

[paineless4u]

Good post, I still think he was in the right and signed the petition (at home of course) didn't want my Gov't job to interfere with my true feelings. I have seen many people go down range, thats my job, and always feel for these young guys that have to eat sand, get shot at, and wonder if they are the next convoy to get hit. sorry for everyone who thinks different but hey we're fighting for you freedom to speek your mind. Please enjoy the sacrifice of our Military guys AND girls who give you this right.

I signed the petition with no reservations!!!!!

 

[ks-waterbug]

I really only have one pet peeve..... There is NO Reason for the Dayum News crews to be filming anything during a campaign! They should not be permited In/Near or around our troops. God Bless America and God Bless the service Men/Women who protect/serve OUR country.

 

[paineless4u]

thank you KS

 

[ks-waterbug]

To really understand the situation at hand one must understand both perspectives..... I have not made up my mind as to the guilt and/or innocence of the soldiers involved.

Here is another commentary I read on this same subject..
(I want to be real clear, I remain neutral on the guilt/innocence until I've had a op to hear Both sides of the story.) This clip in no way expresses my op on this subject; it is mearly another perspective for you to consider.
**********************************************

They're Called Security Rounds , People.


In response to the news blurb about the Marine who put two rounds in a wounded insurgent's head in Fallujah, here's a response from a Marine:


It's a safety issue pure and simple. After assaulting through a target, put a security round in everybody's head. Sorry al-Reuters, there's no paddy wagon rolling around Fallujah picking up "prisoners" and offering them a hot cup a joe, falafel, and a blanket. There's no time to bobo around in the target, you clear the space, dump the chumps, and moveon.org. Are Corpsman expected to treat wounded terrorists?
Negative. Hey libs, worried about the defense budget? Well, it would be waste, fraud, and abuse for a Corpsman to spend one man minute or a battle dressing on a terrorist, its much cheaper to just spend the $.02 on a 5.56mm FMJ.

By the way, terrorists who chop off civilian's heads are not prisoners, they are carcasses.

UPDATE: Let me be very clear about this issue. I have looked around the web, and many people get this concept, but there are some stragglers. Here is your situation Marine. You just took fire from unlawful combatants shooting from a religious building attempting to use the sanctuary status of their position as protection. But you're in Fallujah now, and the Marine Corps has decided that they're not playing that game this time. That was Najaf. So you set the mosque on fire and you hose down the terrorists with small arms, launch some AT-4s (Rockets), some 40MM grenades into the building and things quiet down. So you run over there, and find some tangos wounded and pretending to be dead. You are aware that suicide martyrdom is like really popular with these kinds of idiots, and like taking some Marines with them would be really cool. So you can either risk your life and your fire team's lives by having them cover you while you bend down and search a guy that you think is pretending to be dead for some reason. Also, you don't know who or what is in the next room, and you're already speaking English to each other and! i! ts loud because your hearing is poor from shooting people for several days. So you know that there are many other rooms to enter, and that if anyone is still alive in those rooms, they know that Americans are in the mosque. Meanwhile (3 seconds later), you still have this terrorist that was just shooting at you from a mosque playing possum. What do you do?

You double tap his head, and you go to the next room, that's what.

What about the Geneva Conventions and all that Law of Land Warfare stuff? What about it. Without even addressing the issues at hand your first thought should be, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by
6." Bear in mind that this is a perpetual mind set that in reinforced by experience on a minute by minute basis. Secondly, you are fighting an unlawful combatant in a Sanctuary which is a double No No on his part. Third, tactically you are in no position to take "prisoners" because there are more rooms to search and clear, and the behavior of said terrorist indicates that he is up to no good. No good in Fallujah is a very large place and the low end of no good and the high end of no good are fundamentally the same... Marines get hurt or die. So there is no compelling reason for you to do anything but double tap this idiot and get on with the mission.

If you are a veteran then everything I have just written is self evident, if you are not a veteran than at least try to put yourself in the situation. Remember, in Fallujah there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is only now. Right NOW. Have you ever lived in NOW for a week? It is not easy, and if you have never lived in NOW for longer than it takes to finish the big roller coaster at Six Flags, then shut your hole about putting Marines in jail for war crimes. Be advised, I am not talking to my readers, but if this post gets linked up, I want regular folks to get this message loud and clear. Froggy OUT.


Paul Sheehan
"The world is a dangerous place to
live, not because of the people who
are evil, but because of the people
who don't do anything about it."
Albert Einstein



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[Thinker62]

I.....always feel for these young guys that have to eat sand, get shot at, and wonder if they are the next convoy to get hit. sorry for everyone who thinks different but hey we're fighting for you freedom to speek your mind. Please enjoy the sacrifice of our Military guys AND girls who give you this right.

I signed the petition with no reservations!!!!!

I can't speak for others, but I am 100% on the side of our country and our troops. I understand that the troops represent me and are protecting my freedom. I also do appreciate the sacrifice made by our military. They have my FULL AND UNWAIVERING SUPPORT. Signing the petition does not make anyone more patriotic than me. If you sign the petition, I surely hope it is because you feel that under the circumstances, the soldier was justified. But if people just sign it on blind faith, because it makes them feel like they are supporting the troops, then they are confused.

I support the troops but that doesn't mean that they get a pass when it comes to adhering to the very principals and rules that they are fighting to protect. Soldiers are people too. It is possible that some of them are bad and do bad things. You can't just give them a pass just because they are soldiers with a difficult and critical mission. They have my support, but that doesn't mean they have a free hand to do whatever strikes them at the moment. I think that the best people to judge his behavior are his military peers and superiors. They understand the rules and the circumstances, not us. I say let them do their jobs. But we must watch out that the young man isn't put forth as a sacrificial lamb to satisfy the media. It is our duty as citizens to keep a watchful eye on all sides of the issue.

We are all accountable.

I can't sign such a petition without a clearer picture of what happened. But I don't hold any ill feelings toward anyone who does sign it.

 

[stkr00]

The Marine's view is exactly what I was talking about.

 

[paineless4u]

well written KS!!!!!!

 

[paineless4u]

THINKER 62 YOUR ALRIGHT TOO

 

[Thinker62]

well written KS!!!!!!

WOW KS, I must have missed your post, but I just read it. The guy makes a very powerful argument, but he puts in a lot of circumstantial data that may or may not be true. So here is my delima:

--If it went down the way the petition writer explained it, I wouldn't sign the petition. He painted a picture like the soldiers were just standing around entertaining the media and having a cigarette when they shot the guy.

--If it went down the way someone said with the prisoner sitting upright, I obviously wouldn't sign it.

--If it went down the way KS's guy explains, I would sign it twice.

So I guess I am back on the not jumping on these patriotic band wagons and drawing conclusions till all the facts are in. In my view there aren't enough facts to sign such a petition. But damn that was a powerful scenario that he laid out.....definately makes me think twice.

Thanks KS

 

[jt02busa]

in my opinion the soilder did the right thing who the hell cares if the enemy is wounded or not it is kill or be killed over there the wounded insurgent could have had bomns placed under him just waiting for us to come and help him and then boom more dead american soilders.. besides that if that was a a wounded amreican you would be so luck to have a bullet in your head. this enemy we are fighting are a bunch of cowards they fire at you from around corners and throw rpg's into crowds they are cowards hell they wont even show their faces when they execute of or our own but havce you ever seen a american soilder hiding his face no i think not! this whole situation is being blow out of control by the damn liberal tree hugging bastar*ds here in our own country just like the whole abuse scandel in gitmo coone people this enemy probably cant even spell geneva convention i was in the militarty for 6 years and the only damn nation in the world to take care of pow's and injurded soilders is us so i say that anyone carrying a weapon over there is a hostile and they only way to stay alive is to take care of business ..... Amerericans need to make up their minds as to what is right and what is wrong if we want our sons and daughters and friends home safely then this is what they must do to protect themselves from these COWARDS!!!!!!!!!!