MCN ZX12 article 175.5 hp!

[OB_redelk]

Lyle, ya'll will be the SECOND to know (I'll whine at the 12R site first, sorry). Good or BAD!

There's only 2 dynos in the central part of the state. One's at the Harley dealer (wouldn't be caught dead there) and the other's at a non-Big 4 dealer that I'd question their ability to set it up (they've said to dump all that ram air crap and put on stacks).

As far a "seat of the pants" opinions, you know I won't hesitate to tell the "WHOLE STORY" (and then some).

 

[Guest]

Let us know when it actually arrives. Then we can start getting real news from the 12 site.

In spite of all the flames and putdowns around here, we all like fast bikes.

 

[OB_slam]

Redelk, the reason I didn't reply to you was because I could not recall in the past where I saw you post any messages about the 12R going to be king. I have nothing against you and you're getting a 12R for the right reasons. I hope you have a lot of fun on it. My previous post were directly to those who have been going on and on for month's about how the 12R will blow away the Busa. I'd have nothing wrong with those type's of post either but this is a HAYABUSA forum and we really don't need to hear the 12R hyped up bullcrap. We could go the the 12r's forum to hear that. Most Busa owners here have acknowledged the fact that the 12R will be fast..I haven't heard many Busa's guy screaming that the Busa will slaughter the 12R!! But I sure have heard 12R guys say just the opposite.

 

[Guest]

Slam, your a newbie around here. Org. is to 12 bashing what jenna jameson is to porn. Meaning there has been loads of threads dedicated to 12 bashing, your on one right now.

 

[OB_tinhead]

All I have to say is Where the hell are the ZX12's?
This time last year journalists from around the world were riding Hayabusas around Spain. Note that these were real production straight off the boat bikes, not prototype, preproduction, pre release specials.
Did the Kawasaki freighter sink in the Pacific? Their plan seems to be to deluge the world in hype and cart the same three bikes around the country to keep the more money than brains crowd interested. Maybe these folks with close connections to the Kwacker hierarchy ought to ask the name of the freighter.
ZX12's are kind of cute in the pictures though. I'm only an amateur aerodynamicist, but the fins on the fairing seem like a real breakthrough. Now I'm trying to understand how mounting a garbage can size silencer on the right side of the bike will have no effect at 190 mph. Is it the fins?

 

[OB_redelk]

The numbers of those on BOTH sides, claiming "their" will "slaughter" the other, would boggle your mind. Though I might not make such boasts (since I'd have to back them up), the only reason I posted was your use of "ALL" when refering to those who will or want to get a 12R. Nit-picking with sematics? YOU D-A-M-N STRAIGHT, it is.

This site, the 12R site and L.A. Busas' site are all "playgrounds" where "rock throwing" IS ALLOWED! If it wasn't like this, these sites would be as exciting as a DT 180 Technical Bulletin. I believe none of us, no matter which "side of the fence" we are on, are planning on firebombing the garage of another member (where did I put his address...).

I took no offense nor feel you had anything against me (as I with you). But to pass up an oppertunity to join the "pissing contest" was just too inviting for me to not to drop my "load of BS". Actually, every aspect of my previous post, I believe to be either "truthful" or my "true opinion".

I am far more thankful to have a place to share that opinion and have someone DISAGREE than the other way around. Nothing is learned when everything that is shared is agreed upon. Thanks, slam. I'll still wave... when I BLOW YOUR DOORS (?) OFF!

 

[OB_VegasDude]

hey redelk, when you get your bike trailer it to vegas and lets go for a ride. We can do a lot of top speed safely out here..........

 

[OB_boneman]

Actually the winglets are "VG's" vortex generators. In the aero world they are often jokingly referred as fixes or patches to work that wasn't done correctly in the first place, particularly with wings. The use dates back quite some time, most noticable are ones on airlines typically placed on the upper surface of the wing located at about the 1/4 of the way back from the leading edge. Their function is to "re-energize" the airflow to keep it from separating to early. i.e. keep the flow attached. They are also used in the intake of the L-1011 because of the sharp turn in the inlet duct. Anyway, the zx-12 I'm assuming is using them to prevent the huge amounts of flow separation that occurs just aft of the riders legs. Get this under control and you can greatly reduce drag. It is an art form though and requires extensive time in the wind tunnel, so don't slap any on your 'busa and hope to get gains. That in a nutshell is what I think they appear to be.
No real magic here, just mech engineers asking aero guys what they've been doing for 50+ years.

 

[Guest]

I quoted 172.5 hp for the Busa as the "official" hp for a Busa. We all know that 150 -160 rwhp for a stock busa is the typical range. It won't be much different for the 12 either. The "official" difference between the two bikes is 3 hp. With a clogged fuel filter the actual "street" difference could be larger.

Although I love my red Busa, a 12 could be a cool machine too. If a Busa didn't exist how many of us would be lusting over a 12. Most of us I bet.

Slam et al ... Let's give the 12ers a break.

Besides except for another Busa who are we gonna race with. WITHOUT THE 12ers THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION AROUND.

 

[Guest]

Very informative boneman, I say we just sit tight till next months mags tell the tale.
Interestingly enough, a blue/silver 2000 just arrived here yesterday with a cracked left fairing. That buys a week or so to think, there's a silver canadian 12 in miami right now that was purchased last week. I will go inspect it this week. If anything's fishy with the 12 or she dont fit, viola. The silver/blue will be in omega's garage. Freedom of choice, aint it a beautiful thing!

 

[sherm]

Hypothetical:
GSX1300R and ZX12R are launched on the same day and tested for the first time by all the mags. The results are in:
top speed - ZX12 by 5 mph
1/4 - ZX12 by .1 sec
twisties - ZX-12 by small margin
roll-ons - dead even
ergonomics - busa more comfortable, ZX12 more aggressive.
fit and finish - busa lots better
Tester remarks: The busa has a lousy clutch for making quick starts from a dead stop. Busa - refined, ZX12 - a hot rod.

Question: Which one would you buy?
(Be honest, did anyone buy the busa for fit and finish or ergonomics?)

 

[OB_slam]

Hhhmm where do I start!?! Now all of a sudden "it isn't about blowing the doors off the Busa!" How many times have we read on this forum that the 12R will be KING and nothing will touch it. You 12R guys have been living a fantasy for months!!! And now all of a sudden you've calmed down and you're taking that "it's not about which bike is a little faster approach." You think I'm gonna let you get away with that???? FUK NO!!!! Omega, I greatly respect your opinions but do you really think the 12R will be anywhere close to an actual superbike???? Uummm hello??? what's wrong with this picture??? The 12R is heavy, carries it's weight high, who knows the reliablity issues that will show up, Kawi's suspension has not been all that great lately...I could go on and on. The 12R will be nothing like a superbike!!! Omega please do not count on the 12R being 11lbs lighter. Kawi says it's 11lbs lighter and when has the manufactures ever really been right about the weight of their bike? When you get your 12r put it on a scale then you'll see how heavy it really is! You say the ideal bike for your riding style is the R1...well I have that in common with you because I own a '99 R1 and will probably trade it in for a 1300R in the very near future...The reason for this is because I flipped my R1 during a local wheelie contest (long story) but I just got done getting it fixed and I want a brand new bike and the 1300R appeals to me because I want to try something new. If I get the 1300R and I'm not happy with it I'll be trading it in for a y2k R1 a.s.a.p! But what I don't understand is...if you like the R1's riding style then why are you looking at the 12r which has a riding position that's way different than the R1's? The Busa's riding position is actually closer to the R1's!!! Hold Mr. Omega let me quote you....

<<Within a month of delivery I will have the dry weight down to 430 and the rwhp up to 170. If you dont think those numbers will get the job done then you dont know shite from shinola. Dissapointed? Fuk no!>>

Hahaha that tickles me! First of all you will have paid $2,000 more just to get the 12R over the Busa. Now how much more are you investing in mods? Now total all the money and just think of the monster of a 1300R you could have made with it. You say you aren't dissapointed but you should be! I really have nothing against you getting a 12R. But if the type of bike that appeals to your riding style is the R1 I do not think the 12R will be the bike for you!! I'm not talking out my a$$ here..I own a R1 and it has very good handling and it is an almost flawless bike in my eyes. The 12R will not even come close to the R1 in the handling department(and many many other deparments..basically all deparments except top-end speed and comfort)! Well it's your decision..I'm not really worried about you being faster than me on your 12R...haha you're 257lbs and I'm 165lbs that right there is a big enough weight difference for me to keep you in my rear view mirrors. Not only that but I wont be leaving my Busa stock. Just get the 12R and be happy..If I'm not happy with the Busa I'll trade it in for a new R1 faster than you can say "The 12R SUX!!!"

 

[OB_FRQ FLYR]

Does the 2000 zx9 have the same ram air set-up as the zx12? If so, the ram-air on the new zx9 made minimal gains in top speed.
Just a thought.

Joe

 

[Guest]

Busa baby! Most unique bike on the planet. The fact that it is the fastest was just icing on the cake. Temps near 80 here today!
Bye!

[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 09 February 2000).]

 

[OB_redelk]

Yawn... geez, slam. I'm saddened you didn't reply to my comments. I'm heartbroken. Darn! Omega get all the attention, I'm jelious! Then again, the reason you didn't reply to my comments might be based in the following facts:

1. I've never said the 12R would be "blowing the doors off the Busa". I guess it's because I didn't relize the Busa had "doors".

2. "...King and nothing will touch it"? Hmmm, I never went there either.

3. "...living in a fantasy for months"? Maybe, but I think my fantasy was about Kathy Ireland and didn't have anything to do with bikes.

4. "...suddenly calmed down"? Not me. I'm more excited than ever before. The amount of time it going to take to get what I want is now measured in weeks (if not days), instead of months.

Just like I've ignored the "positive hype" of blazing speeds, monster hp, etc., I've equally ingnored the "negitive hype" of high speed wobbles / crashes, poor fit and finish, etc. Why should I put faith in any of these rumors from unidenified sources on a 'non-exsistant" bike? Even Ricky's 9.47 / 150 1/4 mile wasn't on a "production" model.

As for it carry it's weight "high", where the h-e-l-l does that earth shattering information come from? When you sat on it at one of the shows? You heard it from a "knowledgable" source? Yawn... what ever melts your butter, man.

All the comments, reports, rumors and "insider" info that's shouted from BOTH sides is what I find to be the best reason to laugh. NO ONE, but Ricky and the folks at Muzzy have even hit the starter button on a 12R in the US and those two bikes weren't even "production" models. Just like the ones displayed at the shows.

I've never really based my previous bike purchases on the opinions of Muzzy or Ricky and I don't think that's going to change. I normally won't buy anything in the "first model year", but since my 7R's getting a little "long in the tooth", I thought I'd "take a chance".

I won't have the same luxury Omega has of selling it, if I don't like it (ain't got that kind of money). Geez, if it sucks, I guess I'm stuck, huh? I'm not sweating it. My simple tastes have rarely lead me to disappointment.

Don't worry, slam... even though you didn't honor me with a reply, I'll still wave, when you "blow my doors off".

 

[Guest]

The weight difference could be negligable in many instances compared to a Busa. 11 pounds, 11 pounds .... it's not 50. For instance: If Omega and I were on our bikes -his 12 and my Busa and had the exact same amount of fuel his 12 would weigh 57 MORE pounds than my Busa. Even if he were nearly out of fuel and I was full up he would still weigh more. This is perhaps an extreme example since he does outweigh me by 68 pounds or so but even two riders who weigh the same riding on a 12 and Busa could flip flop on weight based only on the amount of fuel in each tank. It will be interesting to see what the 12's real wet weight is too. If Kaw's "official" hp numbers are correct and the 12 is rated at 1/2 hp more than the Busa then production variations in the Busa and the 12 could show the same back and forth advantage as the slight weight difference did. Is Kaw to be trusted on these official numbers? You would think they would know since they build the bike. The shorter wheelbase and design of the 12 should make RedElk happy on the twisties and it would probably be a chore to keep up with him - regardless of his own modest riding assessment.(He's ridden a S$%!load of miles on those twisties.) As long as RG isn't testing for the mags it may also prove difficult to keep the front wheel down on 1/4 mile runs. A pro ran nearly as quick on a stock Busa at 9.53 but it wasn't RG. Independent testing will have the same rider testing both bikes. It should prove interesting indeed. If the Kaw official hp numbers are correct I wouldn't be surprised to see the 12 come out on top in some tests and the Busa in others depending on how good of a bike they each had that day. 1/2 hp and 11 pounds isn't going help much - if any. I don't believe that the supposed superior ram air and aerodynamics will make the difference that some have indicated. At least I've not seen anything genuine to indicate so. When will Kaw release some numbers for those items? Gearing and clutch should be much larger factors.[assuming same rider] This is where the Busa may suffer due to that difficult to drag launch clutch. Concerning 12 gearing: some have wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Shorter gearing (higher numerically) needed to blaze the quarter would not be the same necessary to reach 218 mph or whatever the current claim is this week. Slam made some good points and there are a few that probably had it coming but not many. Lord knows I've had a few things to say in the past too. The problems we had earlier from a few with exagerrated claims based on unknown facts has dwindled. Even some of the 12 guys like Omega and RdElk weren't buying it. Omega has indicated he'll sell the 12 if it's not to his liking. I'm rambling - something I probably do too much. I just hope that regardless of the testing outcome that we can all have a little class and be decent about this. If I see a 12 in these parts I would want to be friendly since there aren't any other Busas to ride with here and I need a high speed riding partner. Hopefully the results will be close enough one way or the other that none of us will be beating our chests any more.

 

[OB_busTa Kaw]

If one has ever looked at the ram air set up on a Suzuki, the tubes are not exactly crooked. I havent seen the new 12's ram air in person but I seriously doubt that it will be much more efficient. Do you really expect much more hp out of the ram air? You people are kidding yourself.

 

[OB_johnnyboy]

FRQ FLYR,

No, the ZX9 has different RamAir than the 12.
The 12 has the monocoque frame with the huge airbox and the straight air intake. It's supposed to be much better, designed for maximum pressurisation.
We'll see if it makes any difference, or it's just marketing bullshit. It could well be the case that RamAir systems have already reached their pressurisation limits at motrocycle speeds. We'll see...

 

[Guest]

Hello boneman,

Just wanted to clear up some things you said about vortex generators. As far as aircraft applications go, especially on the wings, they are there to break up the boundary layer so that it will be more effective over a control surface. This is just the opposite of what you stated. They actually induce turbulance not cancel it.
As far as the strakes, or winglets go they are there to re-direct airflow without inducing turbulence. If you look at the engine nose cowl of DC-10 aircraft you will notice two strakes, one at about 11 o'clock and the other at 1 o'clock. They help re-direct some airflow around the cowling to the leading edges on the wing for better stall characteristics.
I suspect Kawasaki is doing the same thing on their ZX-12. As you stated it is there to correct a problem, just as in the DC-10 aircraft it was added later to correct a problem. Please don't take any offence at my comments, just wanted to expand on your letter.
Onviously Suzuki got it right the first time and no modifications are needed to improve the airflow.

Ride Safe, Bob

 

[Guest]

Bro, you gotta stop polluting this board with your terminal lack of general knowledge. The busas ram air system is notoriously inefficient, with leaks and gaps. Knowledgable owners here have already modified theirs to remedy it. Kawi is the origionaters of ram air on bikes and the 12's system is their most efficient example thus far. Lastly, you say ram-air wont give a meaningful hp benefit. That one takes the cake. Instead of bustakaw, maybe you should bustabook or 2 and fuking LEARN SOMETHING.