Opinions on Ferguson MO

[fallenarch]

This is what we say when we are talking to each other:

 

[FlatlandBusa]

Lots of fail going on in this thread!

It is very easy to pass judgment on others actions, when given hours and days to make an argument, when the people involved only had seconds to react.

The only people that know the truth about what happened were on the grand jury, all other OPINIONS are just speculation.

 

[fallenarch]

Arch I assure you that I am not the guy that you want to get into a discussion about legal issues with.. I brought that comment into the post intentionally because MOST people do not understand what a Grand Jury is about.

But since you are more educated than I am I stipulate that you are smarter. Since you have a college degree you must be more knowledgeable on every topic and since you slept at a Holiday Inn express you have all insight to the inner workings of being a police officer and the black community.

So tell me Arch..... how should the officer have done it? Do you give any of the blame to the young man for his actions?

cap

If you will read my posts I have stated over and over I'm not defending Brown.

 

[captain]

If you will read my posts I have stated over and over I'm not defending Brown.

I get that, but I will re-read, I don't think I saw you defending the actions of the officer either...

 

[1busa]

act like animals ,Its a reason for the Blacks of America to wake the hell up and change their own lives by teaching their kids right from wrong and stop thinking about the past and move forword !

See Cap this is the chit I'm talking about....

Once again Black people referred 2 as Animals. This strikes a nerve especially due to the fact Blacks were once bought & sold at auctions the same way livestock was..... That is the perception that is how they are viewed..... perhaps that is why sooo many are quick to pass judgement and pull a trigger the same way you would a rabid dog.

How many times were white people described as such? According 2 this guy Blacks need 2 wake up and raise their children better because apparently ONLY black people riot, break laws and destroy property. It's all in the upbringing!!! Blame welfare Blame Obama, Blame gangsta rap!!!!

So I guess West Virginia must've had an influx of random black people show up 2 the game and incite the riot. Same as the pumpkin patch, must be a lot of Black Canadians who rioted and looted after their hockey team lost.

Just so everybody is clear I am NOT defending Brown or the actions of Ferguson. I am just sick & tired of the adjectives innuendos and passive aggressive racist comments from people like this is the 1st time an angry group of misguided people have lashed out. Riots happen ALL the fuggin time WORLD WIDE from people of ALL nations color & creed 4 all kinds of reasons from something as trivial as a sports game, a music concert shutdown early, government taxes, civil rights, and yes the death of teenager.......

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

Ya know, regardless of race, dress code, skin color, height, weight, I've never heard a story about how the 100% compliant and ultimately innocent suspect was shot and/or killed by the law.

Seems there's always a "well you can't just shoot a person b/c they [insert stupid, disobedient, disorderly, unexpected, otherwise questionable behavior] here even if they [insert prior stupid/questionable behavior here].

I have a standard procedure for dealing with law enforcement in any situation:
1) Do what they say when they say to do it
2) Don't do ANYTHING suddenly or without asking permission to do so
3) Interact with them with full respect for them as a person and a uniform

If I get this procedure right, and I always have, everything is fine. The worst outcomes I've EVER had are having to deal with a terse/gruff officer that's just having a bad day and/or receiving a ticket. To date, I have never, EVER been SHOT!

Why do I do this?
1) I don't want to get shot so I want to be sure that I don't give ANY reason for the officer to shoot me. I know they don't know me, so I need to be on my VERY best behavior during the interaction.
2) I don't want to go to jail
3) I don't want their job. Their job is not easy, it's very stressful and I am SO appreciative that they're doing it!
4) I don't want to make their job harder. It's difficult enough without me and everybody else giving 'em crap about it. If they got less crap, they might be a tad less twitchy. As it is, I COMPLETELY understand how they're often on the defensive.

Bottom line: Try not to be in trouble, make trouble, be around trouble and you just might not get any trouble. Hmmm... Maybe I should write that down.

 

[captain]

See Cap this is the chit I'm talking about....

Once again Black people referred 2 as Animals. This strikes a nerve especially due to the fact Blacks were once bought & sold at auctions the same way livestock was..... That is the perception that is how they are viewed..... perhaps that is why sooo many are quick to pass judgement and pull a trigger the same way you would a rabid dog.

How many times were white people described as such? According 2 this guy Blacks need 2 wake up and raise their children better because apparently ONLY black people riot, break laws and destroy property. It's all in the upbringing!!! Blame welfare Blame Obama, Blame gangsta rap!!!!

So I guess West Virginia must've had an influx of random black people show up 2 the game and incite the riot. Same as the pumpkin patch, must be a lot of Black Canadians who rioted and looted after their hockey team lost.

Just so everybody is clear I am NOT defending Brown or the actions of Ferguson. I am just sick & tired of the adjectives innuendos and passive aggressive racist comments from people like this is the 1st time an angry group of misguided people have lashed out. Riots happen ALL the fuggin time WORLD WIDE from people of ALL nations color & creed 4 all kinds of reasons from something as trivial as a sports game, a music concert shutdown early, government taxes, civil rights, and yes the death of teenager.......

Make no mistake I get your frustration... At some point people have to be held accountable for their actions and I could care less about the color of their skin. What is unfortunate in my opinion is that people are burning down their own town then they want to know why they live in a bad neighborhood.. I watched a clip of the step dad screaming burn it down, regardless if he was upset I don't understand what burning the town is going to do to help. Then when other people fall in line and do they perception is exactly the one that they are being labeled and identified as. It is a vicious cycle for sure... I have some fantastic black friends, I don't see them as black I see them as Marty, Robert, Leteria and Denice.. They are some of the smartest people I know and to be honest this type of thing makes them shake their heads too.

For those that flip cars at football games get em on video and take em to jail make them pay for the damages. For those that riot because they don't like the results from the grand jury take em to jail, people have to have some personal responsibility. Hold all people accountable and see what happens then.

We just can't live in this country anymore and be complacent and be neutral, right is right and wrong is wrong... Destruction of property, Looting or stealing from others, stopping traffic can never be justified because you don't get what you want. I would love to hear from someone that thinks that looting a business that had nothing to do with this is Okay...

cap

 

[mysql]

Is your point that white people are superior law enforcement officers?

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I am saying is that looking for people of a specific race in order to create "equal" situations is not creating equality. If you're going to go around requiring half your cops to be black, then require half your basketball teams to be white. Why is "equal" limited to specific jobs? You'd need it applied universally to get anywhere near equal.

And if you're going to make skin color a factor for creating equality, and half your population is female, then half of your cops should also be female. Oh yeah, construction workers are 80% male? Now you need to replace 40% of them with female. Nurses are 75% female? Half of them need to go.

Of course, all of this was said to illustrate that requiring a certain race quota is idiotic. It should be on merit, who is the best person for the job.

If you were Asian, and tried to get into Harvard, you'd have far worse odds of getting in than someone who was black, simply because perfect SAT scores aren't enough. If they were merit based, Harvard would be mostly Asian. That to me is racism - you're punishing an individual for not being any other ethnicity.

Here in Tampa, we literally have cops going around to black churches trying to recruit cops. Are they better at the job? What are the qualifications they're looking for? Skin color alone is a terrible way to choose someone for a job.

What's the solution? The only solution that was the correct choice to begin with. Bad cops need to be fired. Bad cops need to be prosecuted. Clean up the ranks, and the distrust will work its way out. Hiring a bunch of people due to skin color won't change anything. Especially when the qualifications being sought are irrelevant.

 

[fallenarch]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I am saying is that looking for people of a specific race in order to create "equal" situations is not creating equality. If you're going to go around requiring half your cops to be black, then require half your basketball teams to be white. Why is "equal" limited to specific jobs? You'd need it applied universally to get anywhere near equal.

And if you're going to make skin color a factor for creating equality, and half your population is female, then half of your cops should also be female. Oh yeah, construction workers are 80% male? Now you need to replace 40% of them with female. Nurses are 75% female? Half of them need to go.

Of course, all of this was said to illustrate that requiring a certain race quota is idiotic. It should be on merit, who is the best person for the job.

If you were Asian, and tried to get into Harvard, you'd have far worse odds of getting in than someone who was black, simply because perfect SAT scores aren't enough. If they were merit based, Harvard would be mostly Asian. That to me is racism - you're punishing an individual for not being any other ethnicity.

Here in Tampa, we literally have cops going around to black churches trying to recruit cops. Are they better at the job? What are the qualifications they're looking for? Skin color alone is a terrible way to choose someone for a job.

What's the solution? The only solution that was the correct choice to begin with. Bad cops need to be fired. Bad cops need to be prosecuted. Clean up the ranks, and the distrust will work its way out. Hiring a bunch of people due to skin color won't change anything. Especially when the qualifications being sought are irrelevant.

That's a B.S. excuse majority populations have been using for ever. Police should recruit from their own populations, so the Ferguson department should naturally be heavy with minorities. It's complete crap if you think all those white officers are the best and most qualified applicants. I call this white affirmative action - when the criteria includes being white so the weak get in. What black person would want to be a part of a department that has sent such blatant racist vibes throughout the Ferguson incident?

I have a lot of personal experience with the way white people protect segregated institutions with claims like "we can't find qualified applicants".

 

[mysql]

You're right, if it is a situation where there is a white club and they are intentionally preventing blacks from getting hired, that should be a situation to rectify.

It would be easy to find out too - if they're getting black applicants that are qualified and are being passed over, that should be something that can be traced and dealt with.

But that isn't what is happening. Here's the example I illustrated earlier:

Tampa police focus on churches in effort to recruit black officers | Tampa Bay Times

We're scraping the bottom of the barrel, trying to find someone, anyone, based on strictly skin color. No other qualifications matter, and that is just wrong.


So, what are you doing about the discrimination Asians are facing at ivy league colleges?

 

[mysql]

PS: I'm a software developer. All the major tech companies spew nonsense about being unable to find qualified applicants for jobs using our own citizens, and lobby for higher numbers of H1B visas each year.

The truth is, the H1B developers are paid 1/2 to 1/3rd as much, and that is the sole reason for the desire for additional H1Bs.

 

[fallenarch]

You're right, if it is a situation where there is a white club and they are intentionally preventing blacks from getting hired, that should be a situation to rectify.

It would be easy to find out too - if they're getting black applicants that are qualified and are being passed over, that should be something that can be traced and dealt with.

But that isn't what is happening. Here's the example I illustrated earlier:

Tampa police focus on churches in effort to recruit black officers | Tampa Bay Times

We're scraping the bottom of the barrel, trying to find someone, anyone, based on strictly skin color. No other qualifications matter, and that is just wrong.


So, what are you doing about the discrimination Asians are facing at ivy league colleges?

I am not the one doing the discriminating or benifiting from it. So I ask what are you doing about it?

 

[mysql]

You're the one who is so adamant that choosing people based on color is the right solution, not me.

I asked you what you were doing about championing the Asian cause since you're championing black police officers. Or is black police officers your only concern?

 

[fallenarch]

You don't see that diversity is critical to better performance. You are "snow blind". I'm a black person dude, give it some thought and maybe you can figure out my interest in black officers.

 

[mysql]

You don't see that diversity is critical to better performance. You are "snow blind". I'm a black person dude, give it some thought and maybe you can figure out my interest in black officers.

That's precisely my issue with your stance. You would champion black interests because you are black. You don't care about anyone else. I think all unjustified killings are wrong, skin color doesn't matter. We are all humans.

That said, I loath to see situations like Brown promoted in the media. Yes, a black man was killed by a white cop, but thats the part that matters the least. In this situation, I would assume you (being a black person) would be interested in the topic being dropped completely, as is does not help your cause. Brown was robbing a store, and all physical evidence shows he attacked the cop while he was in his car (Brown's blood in the interior), and later turned back on the cop (blood trail 15 feet past where the body fell).

There are more than enough situations of unjustified executions of citizens by police officers to pick from, regardless of victim skin color. Those are the ones you should wish to see publicized. Rallying in favor of Brown does the opposite of what you want. It helps the status quo. It makes your cause look foolish, and people will be more likely to dismiss future killings as more of the same.

Bad cops are the real problem, and part of that symptom might well be executions of black males because they think they can get away with it. Adding more black cops to the force doesn't fix it. Remember that a black male is most likely to be killed by another black male. Adding black cops would be an ironic joke, if nothing else.

I champion interests in the context of what is better for the greater good, and what is right (morally, not legally).

Look at the hypocrisy in the logic of trying to prevent discrimination, by looking at skin color. That's why I like the example of Asians and University enrollment.

If there are two applicants and the white guy is better qualified, and there aren't enough black cops on the force to meet their population percentages, I would prefer the white guy to be hired. Best man for the job should be the #1 concern. Not skin color. If they were equally qualified, then I'd be OK with meeting race quotas.

Keep in mind that I do understand where you are coming from, and I do agree with you that a "white only club" should not be permitted.

I've seen several females promoted to high levels of companies for the sole reason of diversity, not because of quality of work, work ethic, or skill. They are a determent to the company, and I believe the same would be true if you're hiring blacks just to have blacks on the force.

So how would I fix it?

I would like to see police lawsuit costs and penalties taken from the police retirement fund for cases they lose. I want to give them an incentive to drop the bad cops and stop defending them. I want good cops to have skin in the game. I want them to watch each others back to prevent their own personal loss. I want to see justice for everyone. Bad cops don't pick strictly on blacks. They hurt everyone.

 

[TallTom]

I would think an all black police force could be more aggressive on an all black population. Crime is related to economics, not race. It doesn't matter if the police are white or black if the population doesn't have jobs.

Not that this is going to be the outcome in all places. But I can relate to 1 places I know and 2 more that are like this. I live near a city called Mobile, Alabama. Blacks are a majority population. Whites are moving out as fast as they can. Black police chief. Mostly black police force. Until recently (and I will get back to this in a minute) a black mayor. I will be the first to say, that they have a high arrest rate and a 97% conviction rate on what they do arrest. So I will agree that this is an effective police force. And nobody *itches when the blacks kill the blacks, which happens daily. So we're all good there.

But despite this, there is no drop in crime rates, the city is going broke, they raise the taxes across the board to try and stem the flow. There are jobs in Mobile. But nobody wants to live there. Mobile is going broke. The former mayor, (told you I'd get back to this), decided to try and pass a tax bill that proposed, taxing all out of town workers, that worked there, with a city specific income tax. If you live outside the city limits and work within it, they wanted you to pay a tax. To which Airbus responded with if you do that the plant, expected to hire 4,000 people, we are building there, we will shut down and move elsewhere. Austal, their current largest employer lined up the same way. That mayor has now been ousted. Told you I'd get back to that part.

Austal and Airbus have funded and there has been actual technical training schools built offering free training for the skills needed to fill these jobs. FREE. As in if you enroll and pass you have a job in a skilled profession immediately. So who enrolls in these schools? Nobody from Mobile does. And its FREE!!!!!! It isn't the lack of jobs that cause their problems. Its the lack of desire for its own majority population to work the jobs available that causes the problems.

North of Mobile is a city called Prichard. Configured the same way as Mobile. Liken Prichard as Ferguson. An entirely black suburb of a larger inner city, except they are also policed and led by black leaders. Prichard is broke. As in they declared BK.


So Fallenarch, what you propose the next step be for this city now?

And by the way, I live in predominantly white city. About 90% white population. We have a black police chief. And at least half the force is black. We have no problems with our PD, its chief, or how we are treated. We have a low crime rate. We don't even lock our doors around here. The biggest crime we had was some guy barricaded himself in a Pizza joint because he didn't want his ex wife to see his kids. Took them about 3 hours to diffuse that situation.

My neighbor 3 doors down is black. He is a nice fellow. Moved here from Mobile. Took a loss on his house there, but was happy to get out. Hard working family man with 2 great well behaved kids.

 

[TallTom]

That's precisely my issue with your stance. You would champion black interests because you are black. You don't care about anyone else. I think all unjustified killings are wrong, skin color doesn't matter. We are all humans.

That said, I loath to see situations like Brown promoted in the media. Yes, a black man was killed by a white cop, but thats the part that matters the least. In this situation, I would assume you (being a black person) would be interested in the topic being dropped completely, as is does not help your cause. Brown was robbing a store, and all physical evidence shows he attacked the cop while he was in his car (Brown's blood in the interior), and later turned back on the cop (blood trail 15 feet past where the body fell).

There are more than enough situations of unjustified executions of citizens by police officers to pick from, regardless of victim skin color. Those are the ones you should wish to see publicized. Rallying in favor of Brown does the opposite of what you want. It helps the status quo. It makes your cause look foolish, and people will be more likely to dismiss future killings as more of the same.

Bad cops are the real problem, and part of that symptom might well be executions of black males because they think they can get away with it. Adding more black cops to the force doesn't fix it. Remember that a black male is most likely to be killed by another black male. Adding black cops would be an ironic joke, if nothing else.

I champion interests in the context of what is better for the greater good, and what is right (morally, not legally).

Look at the hypocrisy in the logic of trying to prevent discrimination, by looking at skin color. That's why I like the example of Asians and University enrollment.

If there are two applicants and the white guy is better qualified, and there aren't enough black cops on the force to meet their population percentages, I would prefer the white guy to be hired. Best man for the job should be the #1 concern. Not skin color. If they were equally qualified, then I'd be OK with meeting race quotas.

Keep in mind that I do understand where you are coming from, and I do agree with you that a "white only club" should not be permitted.

I've seen several females promoted to high levels of companies for the sole reason of diversity, not because of quality of work, work ethic, or skill. They are a determent to the company, and I believe the same would be true if you're hiring blacks just to have blacks on the force.

So how would I fix it?

I would like to see police lawsuit costs and penalties taken from the police retirement fund for cases they lose. I want to give them an incentive to drop the bad cops and stop defending them. I want good cops to have skin in the game. I want them to watch each others back to prevent their own personal loss. I want to see justice for everyone. Bad cops don't pick strictly on blacks. They hurt everyone.

Will you marry me......LOL.

 

[TallTom]

You're right, if it is a situation where there is a white club and they are intentionally preventing blacks from getting hired, that should be a situation to rectify.

Or how about doing way with forced black segregation. No Ms. Black America. No United ***** college fund. No NAACP. Unless we can have an equal Ms. White America.....etc.

Racism is perpetuated further when you see special privilege given to a race.

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

I am not the one doing the discriminating or benifiting from it. So I ask what are you doing about it?

The only thing that any of us can do about anything, and truly the BEST thing that we can do about anything, is lead by example in our own lives and do what we can to counter the BS when we encounter it in our own lives and the lives of those with whom our paths cross. If we do that, then we are part of the solution. To change things on a larger community level, there has to first be unity in the community on the individual level and that only comes from each of us, one at a time. A unified community can THEN change the institutions, but a divided community will simply be dominated by the institutions.

 

[Flicka]

You don't see that diversity is critical to better performance. You are "snow blind". I'm a black person dude, give it some thought and maybe you can figure out my interest in black officers.

Snow blind? Wow... Man, I do my dead level best to be respectful of your opinions, but it's very difficult when you start slinging racist commentary and illogical assertions.

I believe that diversity of thought, skill, character, education, life experience, and other personal qualities is a great thing. When the mix is based on characteristics like those, diversity can be of immense value regardless of the races involved. I have also seen many examples in the workplace and in general society where people are elevated to certain positions based solely on their race or gender. There is no positive value at all in that. In fact, in my experience, it is almost always harmful to the entire group.