Poor Running - Poorly Gen 1 - Diagnostic and repair

[crash_matt]

Update - Parts Arrived!

So, imagine my frustration - I order the parts, wait forever and even get to the point of ordering a second hand one off Ebay, figuring that way I can be getting on while I wait. Well, no sooner do I place the Ebay order than my parts arrive... hmm.. so now I have a spare pump!? Bound to need a clean when it gets here, but could be handy to have on the shelf. Now to the rebuild...

I had all the o-rings, a new fuel tap, all the filters etc and it was a fairly straightforward job of fitting them into the pump housing with the pump. Not too challenging and no point taking photos to post as frankly any arse-hat can follow an exploded parts diagram so let's not be too insulting.

One I had that all rebuilt I knew that the tank was going to need a scrub - so far I had taken off the fuel tap and that was all. I put it back on and filled the tank with evaporust. Yes, that's right - filled it. Best part of 25 litres - never mind the 21 litre capacity, it just keeps going. I left that overnight and drained it off via the fuel line from the tap. I did pick up some hose clamps for this job and they made it much easier. But do note that it is possible to buy an actual tap that will fit, which would probably be even more helpful.

I didn't get much of a chance to check what was coming out as it was going straight back into the plastic tubs it came in (you can reuse the stuff). It was in there for about 18 hours in total.

I then took out the sender unit and had a poke around with the endoscope. It was clear that there was an improvement BUT there was still sludge and cack in there. Now this is all down to being left with a low fuel level for a long time. For those who don't know (I didn't) the ethanol in the fuel soaks up any water in the tank/air and it turns to a nasty brown sticky mark - this was the stuff on the tank skin. Added to that when I started blasting it through with a jet wash and soapy stuff out come lots of yellow gel/snot. On top of that an absolute ton of flakey cack just kept on coming out.

I threw in some gravel (20 small stones - so I could count them back out) and shook it around, then wished I never had. It's a total c*** to get back out! I spent the next half hour chasing one bit of gravel out, only to then discover after another jet wash that there was another bit in there still hiding! At that point I did debate other approaches to clear things out even more, but the advice was a bit varied and frankly the more I just kept on rinsing and running it through the better it got. That and a bit of finger in the hole...

Anyway, I got the tank to the point of being as clean as it was going to get, dried it out with the compressed air gun and added some WD40 to help tackle the last tiny beads of the wet stuff. During the course of all this the following bits of tank damage occurred:
1) tiny, tiny scratches where it lay upside down on some of the grit that I blasted out.
2) the tank protector (which had been fitted off centre f***in amateur job) cracked and lifted - so I had to take it off revealing tank in need of a clean, rub down and a new pad.
3) the tank was sat upside down on a rag which has soaked up some of the petrol when originally emptied. Unnoticed at the time when I picked it up to start this faff the rag was stuck to the filler cap and when gently pulled it took some of the cap paint off, leaving a bloody mess. Might have to find a replacement or just rub it down and put on one of them sticky things.

Right, back to the job at hand. I put all the parts back on and offered the tank into place above the shiny pump. At this point I have:

• Changed the spark plugs (now on CR9EK as it was all they had in)
• Rebuilt the pump contents
• Cleaned through the injectors using the motion pro injector cleaner
• Renewed the fuel pipes as the words of wisdom were that these like to get kinky and not in a good way - so while I was in there...

Put the whole thing back on, added some fuel to the rebuilt tank and checked for leaks. All holding. Primed the pump and fired the bike up, ran it for a short stint again checking for leaks. Still nothing.
Dropped the tank back into correct position, rebuilt the bike, added more fuel and went for a ride - just a short one. No problems so far and smooth on the power all the way up as far as I could go.

OK - so I am still waiting to use it in anger and to get the thing 'hot' as I know that can contribute, but it may just be fixed....

Fingers crossed all - if there are no more posts I fixed it and forgot to come back. If there are posts below - something has probably not got right or I've got more waffle to share.

Hope this has helped those of you who may be reading it in search of answers for your own dodgy running. At some point I will dare to look at the mountain of receipts and let people know what I spent fixing thing issue! But I'm not ready to cry yet - let me at least get a bit drunk first!

 

[crash_matt]

OH S*IT!

What the hell!? So... great ride out the other day and a good start to today, but then pushed to go up over 7000 and it started to get rough and underpowered again. Not as bad, but not great. Let's back track...

I started the bike on the side stand - it went fine, I pulled it up straight to roll it out and it changed tone and seemed to be lumpy. A couple of throttle blips and it settles back down. OK - thinks I - that's a bit odd.

I take the bike out and it's not exactly smooth and forgiving, not major, just can't get away with being lazy on the clutch so much.

Bike is up to temp and running well, keeping in the lower rev margins and it's shifting some serious pace. Get to a straight and think, right, let's roll on big - nope. Not smooth and consistent. It seems to be getting there, but it definitely isn't quite right. Next thing I notice (when stopped at junctions) is an odd smell coming up from the bike, not one I've noticed before and pretty foul smelling. Perhaps it's just cooking crap off the engine? Perhaps it's the soap soaked sponge under the tank (from all the jet washing) getting up to temp and steaming off?

So, not sure the damn thing is any better after all that money and time. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's had a good clean through, but where the hell is the problem?
TPS?
Crank sensor?

HELP?!?!?!?!

 

[Berlin Germany]

did you clean the injectors?
did you clean the little filters (little finger nail sized) inside throttle block?

 

[crash_matt]

Evening All, (Well it is in the UK)

So... I've had a chat with a good friend who knows his way round things and he thinks probably TPS too, but I know that @davidoffer had some issues along these lines and it turned out to be other things so I'm not going to get too carried away.

1) Did not take out the filters in the injectors - foolish error, will resolve that asap and probably fit some replacements.
2) Have not got the kit to run a pressure test on the pump and did not replace the pump when rebuilding - so it could in theory be a lack of pressure perhaps?
3) I'm not ruling out the Crankshaft position sensor yet either...

Bloody annoying. Thing is it runs so well in a specific rev window, so I'm wanting to think TPS. I've tested it and it runs from 1.15 to 3.94 on the resistance test which suggests it is only a little off and probably not enough to kill it, what I don't get is why it is such a total death at full throttle... there have to be clues in this that I am missing.

 

[crash_matt]

UPDATE:

Well what a s**t few weeks it has been with no time in the garage at all! Weather has been poor with some freakishly cold snaps too, but the biggest challenge has been just getting through the demands of work and wife!

Now that I've ticked those things off the list I managed to get back out to the garage and thought I would run a simple experiment on the TPS to see if I could find more proof or evidence to support it being the culprit.

I followed the official manual checks for voltage - all fine.

Then back to the resistance readings - not so fine. As I measured before it's stopping at 3.9 rather than getting to 4.5, so I loosened off the securing bolts and twisted it to see what I could get it up to, it pushed over 4, but still not quite hitting the dizzy heights of 4.5 so now I'm thinking that there could be something in this. Check of the throttle mech reveals it is turning to full lock so the issue is not physical/mechanical but electrical. Now of course the little TPS alignment mark on the dash (dealer mode) is out of whack, so I play around with that and deduce (fairly obviously) that this reads the resistance from the unit when throttle is closed, so this will only ever align a dodgy/faulty TPS ready for the low rev range.

So then I get to thinking, why not just play with its position while the bike is running. Fire up the bike and slowly twist the TPS to alter the resistance readings back at ECU. By doing this I can pretty much replicate the crappy running and also shift it out by essentially 'advancing' the TPS. Rolling it back and 'retarding' it gives the same poor power and throttle response I was getting at around 7000rpm. At this point I also have the air filter out and am pleased to see no issues with flap adjustment (another thing I didn't check at the time).

My goal now is to take it for a spin with the TPS as far advanced as I can get it to see if that resistance figure closer to 4.5 will alter the upper end performance. If it does (and I'm praying it does) then it's time for a replacement and hopefully problem cured.

 

[crash_matt]

BALLS!

So that didn't work, I was rather hoping it would be a simple enough case of tweak the TPS and get an improvement, nope. I do still think it is throttle linked, may still be TPS, but could really use thoughts and input. Here's how it went...

Leaping from the junction it stalled and tried to fall over (nice). Overpowered at lower revs and scruffy delivery probably due to TPS shift as this is new.
Great performance up to 5-6k, then the familiar bog down.
Bury the throttle full and a farty sludge takes over the performance and no speed improvement.
Ease off the throttle and try creeping it and it makes a little head way, but nothing major and still miles away from the rev limit.
Next up the bike stalls as approaching a junction and needs to be started again.

 

[crash_matt]

WTH?

So I thought I would take it for a run with the TPS disconnected see if that made a difference, i.e. wrong info being given to ECU, but still the same. More bogging down, same thing, maybe slightly different but only slightly. So.. does this mean the TPS is fine and the problem lies elsewhere? Probably... but where.

 

[crash_matt]

Back Again - Update

So, in despair I parted ways with the Busa and accepted a painful financial loss. Skip forward to a couple of weeks ago and it's back on the market, repaired after many many months in a bike shop. Couldn't pass it up so bought it again.

Good ride out, first journey all good, then some interesting stall issues from set off. Put it down to ineptitude... but...

Big long ride to London and its vibe as hell in the right handlebar grip. Progress is good, roll on is OK, but not blistering, I assume at the time this is down to being in top, trying to justify things. Park up and spend 5 hours at a do in the city, then saddle back up for the 300 mile return.

Oh sh1t, performance not great. Lumpy, a bit noisy and feeling like it's running on three.. arse. Here we are again! So I call the bike shop and we talk through what they did and did not do. Tacho dances at 2k, poor power. Lift the tank and start playing with TPS, not set to the right spot (it was still where I had left it... hmmm). Adjust that, not fixed. Start pulling injectors by disconnecting. Cylinder 3 makes no discernible difference, so now I'm back almost to where I started with a job on.


Replacement throttle body, injectors, TPS and injectors loom picked up from ebay, its a good condition used one from Japan. Hopefully that will help either a) eradicate issues or b) help narrow it down.

 

[Bumblebee]

Back Again - Update

So, in despair I parted ways with the Busa and accepted a painful financial loss. Skip forward to a couple of weeks ago and it's back on the market, repaired after many many months in a bike shop. Couldn't pass it up so bought it again.

Good ride out, first journey all good, then some interesting stall issues from set off. Put it down to ineptitude... but...

Big long ride to London and its vibe as hell in the right handlebar grip. Progress is good, roll on is OK, but not blistering, I assume at the time this is down to being in top, trying to justify things. Park up and spend 5 hours at a do in the city, then saddle back up for the 300 mile return.

Oh sh1t, performance not great. Lumpy, a bit noisy and feeling like it's running on three.. arse. Here we are again! So I call the bike shop and we talk through what they did and did not do. Tacho dances at 2k, poor power. Lift the tank and start playing with TPS, not set to the right spot (it was still where I had left it... hmmm). Adjust that, not fixed. Start pulling injectors by disconnecting. Cylinder 3 makes no discernible difference, so now I'm back almost to where I started with a job on.


Replacement throttle body, injectors, TPS and injectors loom picked up from ebay, its a good condition used one from Japan. Hopefully that will help either a) eradicate issues or b) help narrow it down.

Wow is the sord of the day.....

Queue @Rojo with a great big "wow" emoji....

Good luck with that thing......

 

[Bumblebee]

No, Red, ( @Rojo ) I mean a BIG "wow" emoji......you know the one.....

 

[sixpack577]

As erratic as it's acting, it sounds more like a bad ground and/or an ecu fault to me.
Know anyone with a good ecu that you can swap in? (02-07 are compatable).
Throttle position sensor? Maybe, but the problem should be consistent and repeatable.
Throttle bodies? I can't see them be an issue without physical damage or an air leak around an o-ring(uncommon).
Injectors? The probelm should be consistent and repeatable, unless one of them has completely failed, vs just having clogged screens.
But a complete injector failure would result in a regular misfire.
Which leads back to a bad ground and/or bad ecu...and I have experienced similiar, being a bad wire deep in the harness.
I hate to throw parts at a problem, but there is no reliable way to test an ecu, and unless you're going to point to point with a power probe through the entire harness(no fun), then a used wiring harness can be a good option.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

 

[Bumblebee]

This one......Red.......must I do everything myself........??

 

[crash_matt]

Garage session complete

So a delay in arrival of exhaust for the other bike gave me a chance to make a start in this.

Some cheap and nasty fleabay injectors arrived so I thought let's just change them all. Bag of sh1t. Not a surprise, so I put the old ones back, same injector in same port as they came from.

#3 had been the dodgy one and when I primed and fired it started to piss fuel. Removal and inspection revealed a warped o ring at the fuel rail which fell apart as I changed it for bits off the cheap and nasty set. Could it be that it was allowing enough air in to cause the issues? Well I sorted that went for a short run and watched the fuel needle drop. Back in the garage #1 has a leak and the connector was jumping off. Same again, replaced the rubbers and all sealed up.

When I went on the run (5 miles) it went great, no issues, roll on easy and power all the way through with no issues running at lower revs. Just that smell of fuel and the drastically dropping gauge.

All back together again. About to go out for another run and see.

 

[crash_matt]

Fixed?!?!?!

Ok, second run, same route and distance, no more leaks, all the power is still there...hmm.. I don't want to jump the gun before it gets a proper trip out, but.................

 

[sixpack577]

Fixed?!?!?!

Ok, second run, same route and distance, no more leaks, all the power is still there...hmm.. I don't want to jump the gun before it gets a proper trip out, but.................

leaking and disintegrating injector o-rings will cause that too...
lol
Congrats, sounds like you're good now.

 

[crash_matt]

leaking and disintegrating injector o-rings will cause that too...
lol
Congrats, sounds like you're good now.

Thanks, six-pack, good to know. I suspect that the cheap injectors will provide handy spares when the others give out. Probably a damn sight cheaper than ordering genuine through Fowlers too!

Looks like I'm going to have a spare throttle body complete with fuel rail, injectors and harness turning up for nothing. But handy to have in case.

 

[sixpack577]

Thanks, six-pack, good to know. I suspect that the cheap injectors will provide handy spares when the others give out. Probably a damn sight cheaper than ordering genuine through Fowlers too!

Looks like I'm going to have a spare throttle body complete with fuel rail, injectors and harness turning up for nothing. But handy to have in case.

If you want to, you can rebuild your stock injectors, which is simply o-rings and internal filters, which can be bought as inexpensive kits.
Thread a screw or bolt into the old filter, pull it out, and push in a new one.
Cleaning the injectors while connecting to a battery, then flushing/spraying with cleaner in both directions.
The filter screens deteriorate over time too.

 

[TallTom]

If you want to, you can rebuild your stock injectors, which is simply o-rings and internal filters, which can be bought as inexpensive kits.
Thread a screw or bolt into the old filter, pull it out, and push in a new one.
Cleaning the injectors while connecting to a battery, then flushing/spraying with cleaner in both directions.
The filter screens deteriorate over time too.

I need to do this to mine. Recommended source? I was thinking Quantum but have yet to start parts searching.

 

[sixpack577]

I need to do this to mine. Recommended source? I was thinking Quantum but have yet to start parts searching.

I'll have to look, I havn't done Busa injectors in a few years, and the Gsxr's function the same but their parts don't interchange.
I have used Quantum fuel pumps, and have a new one on the workbench for the Gsxr now, they make good stuff, but I don't know if they have Busa injector kits or not.

 

[crash_matt]

It's back....

So, fewling full of myself and eager to go for a proper journey I fired up the Busa again, just a matter of a few hours after the 'fix'. All set to fill up and enjoy and damn it, the bloody thing is lumpy again.

No change when it warmed up either, so back to the garage. Tank up and checking and sure enough #3 is the culprit again. So...

Pull the coil packs and switch for a neighbour. - no change.
Put different plug into coil and check for spark against frame - all good.
Pull the plug from #3 and repeat - good spark. So..

Thinking that this is pretty much deffo the injector I check voltage in loom when running. All good.
Check that there is still a circuit in the injector. All good.
Figure right, let's swap #3 for #4 and make the problem move to be confident that it's the injector, not the cylinder. Problem....

Got them out, 3 goes into 4 no bother, but will injector 4 go into the fuel rail at position 3? Nope. Not for love nor money. Curious I think let's pull it from the fuel rail and look. Eventually it goes in, but plastic port on the rail looks slightly worn wonky. (Take the opportunity to blow it through again to clear any crut).

Next issue, can't get the fuel rail to go into the side of the damn plastic section of #3! Check the o-ring, add oil to help, nope... change the o ring (for one in a halfords box) no better, find another, think I've got it in, but no, fuel passing out of the gap! Try again, still no dice.

So late night 'genius idea' turns out to be a bloody daft one. There was a constant drip, even with the bike switched off. I'm guessing just gravity pushing through the pump as the tank is now full and vertical. Back to clamps on the hoses and waiting for my next brainwave or parts delivery, which ever daft solution comes along next!!

_______________________

On another note, thanks for the awesome tips on injectors. Does anyone have a pic of the filter coming out of one of these buggers?