Proof of Election Fraud

TallTom said:
So what is an insurrection?

The definition I found is:

insurrection: an organized and usually violent act of revolt or rebellion against an established government or governing authority of a nation-state or other political entity by a group of its citizens or subjects; also, any act of engaging in such a revolt.

"or governing authority"

Like burning down a police station maybe? Nah that was a peaceful protest.

Threatening to kidnap a sitting governor of a state. Nah they were white supremacists being fueld by the FBI, we can't count that.

Like trying to break down the fences of federal buildings in Portland and the president offering to send in the National Guard? Nah said the governor, those people are angry and have a cause.

Or how about cornering political officials in restaurants, in movie houses, on public transportation. Nah there isn't any violence so it's just peaceful protesting.

Now suddenly we hear the term daily for months after it happened. It's been happening for years. It just the one side has realized that one man has become very dangerous to their political future. So now we need it to be an insurrection.

None of them give a crap what you or I want to call it. We have to call it as they see it.
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There is a definition in a dictionary and then there's the act that occurred Jan 6th...it sure wasn't a peaceful protest.

These people were there to disrupt the legal activity of the electoral count to establish the government of your country....that pretty much overrides most any other violent activity you used as an example.

At what other point in recent history has the even on Jan 6th been duplicated?

And it's not just one man that is dangerous for your country, it's the ideology he brings to the table.
 
Bumblebee said:
And it's not just one man that is dangerous for your country, it's the ideology he brings to the table.
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So is the ideology that it's OK to do all of the other things I used as examples. I don't think Jan 6 would have happened if the previous examples were made into non threatening to our country events.

The line for tolerance keeps getting taken to higher and higher hostile acts.

Punish the hell out of people that burn down cities, police stations, federal and state entities, and let that send a message. We not only don't punish them, they are made to look like heroes. I'm sure many that acted in Jan 6 felt like nothing would happen to them. Nothing happened to the previous insurrections.

You can say Jan 6 was much worse, and I'd agree. But you can't go back and change the definition of the word to say it doesn't count, unless it reaches the level of Jan 6.

Insurrection, civil war, revolt, overthrow, are all becoming the same definition now. The consequences should have been handed out long before Jan 6. Most everyone that showed up Jan 6 have watched the decay of this country. With no consequence to those perpetrating it. In fact some were made into heroes and holidays. The line drawn on Jan 6 was completely due to irresponsible political grandstanding that has been irresponsible to the American public for years. That line is the result of a defective government.

You of all people should know, lawlessness, breeds lawlessness.
 
TallTom said:
So is the ideology that it's OK to do all of the other things I used as examples. I don't think Jan 6 would have happened if the previous examples were made into non threatening to our country events.

The line for tolerance keeps getting taken to higher and higher hostile acts.

Punish the hell out of people that burn down cities, police stations, federal and state entities, and let that send a message. We not only don't punish them, they are made to look like heroes. I'm sure many that acted in Jan 6 felt like nothing would happen to them. Nothing happened to the previous insurrections.

You can say Jan 6 was much worse, and I'd agree. But you can't go back and change the definition of the word to say it doesn't count, unless it reaches the level of Jan 6.

Insurrection, civil war, revolt, overthrow, are all becoming the same definition now. The consequences should have been handed out long before Jan 6. Most everyone that showed up Jan 6 have watched the decay of this country. With no consequence to those perpetrating it. In fact some were made into heroes and holidays. The line drawn on Jan 6 was completely due to irresponsible political grandstanding that has been irresponsible to the American public for years. That line is the result of a defective government.

You of all people should know, lawlessness, breeds lawlessness.
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Riots which turn deadly and destructive happen in almost each and every country on this blue marble....

We could delve into the root cause of these protests turned riot and see the initial intent was lost to violence...if we look into a couple of the latest ones Kenosha, Ferguson, the catalyst was the death of an unarmed (black) man.

What was the root cause of the attack on the capital? It was to disrupt the electoral process and the democratic processes of the United States.....yes, I'd say that is much, much worse than a protest turned riot especially since the then sitting president did nothing to stop it....and he could have....

There is that fine line between the right to protest and a protest turned into a riot. In days of yorn, snipers were emplaced to take out the leader of the riot and the other main instigators....those days are long past now.

If we look at say Hong Kong where violent protests turned into riots continued for months, the US has never seen such a thing as that......yet......

The definition of insurrection in your Constitution
"In a constitutional democracy, sedition and insurrection refer to inciting or participating in rebellion against the constitutionally established government, its processes and institutions, or the rule of law"
 
Bumblebee said:
Riots which turn deadly and destructive happen in almost each and every country on this blue marble....

We could delve into the root cause of these protests turned riot and see the initial intent was lost to violence...if we look into a couple of the latest ones Kenosha, Ferguson, the catalyst was the death of an unarmed (black) man.

What was the root cause of the attack on the capital? It was to disrupt the electoral process and the democratic processes of the United States.....yes, I'd say that is much, much worse than a protest turned riot especially since the then sitting president did nothing to stop it....and he could have....

There is that fine line between the right to protest and a protest turned into a riot. In days of yorn, snipers were emplaced to take out the leader of the riot and the other main instigators....those days are long past now.

If we look at say Hong Kong where violent protests turned into riots continued for months, the US has never seen such a thing as that......yet......

The definition of insurrection in your Constitution
"In a constitutional democracy, sedition and insurrection refer to inciting or participating in rebellion against the constitutionally established government, its processes and institutions, or the rule of law"
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In bold. Are you going to suggest not seeing the riots held solely because they did not like Trump being the president?

And while you ponder that answer, who tried to stop the rioters that set fire to police depts? Or attempting to do damage to federal buildings in Portland Oregon? They are all a component of our Constitutional framework.

I have no issue with a peaceful protest in this country. They require notice and permitting in order to dispatch assets to protect that right.

Who granted that to the protestors outside of the SCOTUS building. Or SCOTUS Kavenaugh's residence?
 
TallTom said:
In bold. Are you going to suggest not seeing the riots held solely because they did not like Trump being the president?

And while you ponder that answer, who tried to stop the rioters that set fire to police depts? Or attempting to do damage to federal buildings in Portland Oregon? They are all a component of our Constitutional framework.

I have no issue with a peaceful protest in this country. They require notice and permitting in order to dispatch assets to protect that right.

Who granted that to the protestors outside of the SCOTUS building. Or SCOTUS Kavenaugh's residence?
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The bold part was already in there when I copy and pasted it...I personally didn't bold anything. I guess whomever wrote it was intending it to be an important part.

Now when we talk about protests turned into a riot....the intent of the protesters was generally not to set fire to a particular building...they probably didn't plan this protest weeks before and decide which building to destroy or burn...I wager these occurrences were circumstance.....most damage was incurred by these bus loads of "professional protesters" (rioters) who showed up.

People who went to the capital Jan 6th were prepared and willing to enter the capital by any means possible, they also pre-planned to engage police...if not, why would they show up with armor, helmets and tactical vests?

Hell even here there are some violent protests turned riot where they loot, pillage, destroy and burn police cars (or any car) they encounter....and all over a sporting event...

But nobody tried to storm our Parliament buildings because they didn't like who was voted into power...or to disrupt the election process.
 
Bumblebee said:
The bold part was already in there when I copy and pasted it...I personally didn't bold anything. I guess whomever wrote it was intending it to be an important part.

Now when we talk about protests turned into a riot....the intent of the protesters was generally not to set fire to a particular building...they probably didn't plan this protest weeks before and decide which building to destroy or burn...I wager these occurrences were circumstance.....most damage was incurred by these bus loads of "professional protesters" (rioters) who showed up.

People who went to the capital Jan 6th were prepared and willing to enter the capital by any means possible, they also pre-planned to engage police...if not, why would they show up with armor, helmets and tactical vests?

Hell even here there are some violent protests turned riot where they loot, pillage, destroy and burn police cars (or any car) they encounter....and all over a sporting event...

But nobody tried to storm our Parliament buildings because they didn't like who was voted into power...or to disrupt the election process.
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Thus far y'all appear to be a more civilized population than America.

Civility here in America is eroding pretty rapidly. In almost all areas of our day to day existence. Perhaps if they start punishing for lack of civility, people would self regulate better. Now people literally have to know who you vote for to determine how they treat you. This didn't exist not that long ago.

A great example is any public servant. And l'll focus on our police force as an example. If a cop is going to interact with me, he should do so with civility and respect. Too often they act like an arsehole. Totally uncalled for. Uncivil cops are becoming a big loss of public faith because of how they treat us. Make them pay the price. Train them to make civility a culture. Not an exception.
 
TallTom said:
Thus far y'all appear to be a more civilized population than America.

Civility here in America is eroding pretty rapidly. In almost all areas of our day to day existence. Perhaps if they start punishing for lack of civility, people would self regulate better. Now people literally have to know who you vote for to determine how they treat you. This didn't exist not that long ago.

A great example is any public servant. And l'll focus on our police force as an example. If a cop is going to interact with me, he should do so with civility and respect. Too often they act like an arsehole. Totally uncalled for. Uncivil cops are becoming a big loss of public faith because of how they treat us. Make them pay the price. Train them to make civility a culture. Not an exception.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of negative police interactions are the result of what the police are exposed to on a daily basis...the more they are physically and verbally abused, the more callous they become.....they are after all only human beings and after a while they lose perspective of whom they are dealing with.

Years ago police didn't need body armor to do their jobs and some of the small town cops would give drunks a ride home instead of a trip to jail...circumstances have certainly changed.

I had a fair bit of interaction with police ERT teams while training them, I noted changes in behavior of members over the years...they had become hard and unemotional probably from undiagnosed OSD.

Paramedics and health care professionals get the same way after a while.
 
Bumblebee said:
I think a lot of negative police interactions are the result of what the police are exposed to on a daily basis...the more they are physically and verbally abused, the more callous they become.....they are after all only human beings and after a while they lose perspective of whom they are dealing with.

Years ago police didn't need body armor to do their jobs and some of the small town cops would give drunks a ride home instead of a trip to jail...circumstances have certainly changed.

I had a fair bit of interaction with police ERT teams while training them, I noted changes in behavior of members over the years...they had become hard and unemotional probably from undiagnosed OSD.

Paramedics and health care professionals get the same way after a while.
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I disagree that the negative interactions come from what they are exposed to on a daily basis. Some cops are out on power trips just because they can.

Even if they change over the years, they will not be held accountable if they do something to break the law.

Accountability is a huge factor that keeps that “thin blue line” in place. Cops get away with murder and the tax payers end up paying legal fees. If there ever was a change in which police were held accountable, people would begin to trust them again.
 
DougE said:
I disagree that the negative interactions come from what they are exposed to on a daily basis. Some cops are out on power trips just because they can.

Even if they change over the years, they will not be held accountable if they do something to break the law.

Accountability is a huge factor that keeps that “thin blue line” in place. Cops get away with murder and the tax payers end up paying legal fees. If there ever was a change in which police were held accountable, people would begin to trust them again.
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I would say there are a few who have the illusion of ultimate power and feel they need to exercise that power...Chauvin comes to mind...

I personally think the change in society has changed how police interact with citizens...we see police who patrol their patrol areas and are well known and respected by the people they look after...then there are others who think they are "all that and a bag of chips."

Once these police officers strap on a firearm, body armor and a badge, they are held to a higher standard than the rest of us yet there are still a few who do stupid and reckless things even though they are being recorded..I don't get that.

However, there are thousands upon thousands of police interactions each day in the US that are routine and don't have any drama...police officers often don't get to interact with citizens on their best days, add to this nobody likes being told what to do.

Some communities are dismounting police to patrol on foot amongst the populace and it is proving to be effective..when a police officer is driving by in a patrol vehicle with the windows all rolled up wearing mirrored sunglasses it sure does little to help citizens relate to them.

I know I sure wouldn't want to be a cop....
 
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Bumblebee said:
The biggest takeaway from this is......he didn't say not to......he stood back to see what was going to happen and then thanked them afterwards...

How do we know what real insurrectionists do in this day and age...anyone which smashes their way into a building where they are not welcome (this being evident by locked doors and windows) is at least break and enter...in this case a democratic process was taking place so it turns into an insurrection...

We hear about police opening gates and letting people come in...the police knew they were far outmatched and probably weighed the consequences of further physical engagement...any of the capital police interviewed certainly weren't welcoming these people into the building.

The images below don't spurn thoughts of "welcome"

View attachment 1655506

View attachment 1655507
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How do you know with absolute certainty these aren't Antifa and BLM people masquerading as Trump supporters? You don't... Don't tell me the democrats , leftist, marxist extremist don't take advantage of any situation where they can make Trump look bad. In case you haven't noticed they have been attacking and smearing Trump for 6 or 7 years ever since he announced he was running president.

Your point about Trump not saying stop ignores personal responsibility. This whole "Vicarious Liability" is a way to attach the actions of a bunch of people that clearly know they are breaking some kind of law from a simple trespass to deliberate destruction of federal property. So, give everyone a pass that got arrested and just blame Trump because he didn't say stop the process of entering the grounds of the Capitol. Whatever happened to personal responsibility for ones own actions? Trump didn't have contractual agreements with the protestors... did he? They didn't work for Trump did they?

Again... Trump was supportive of National Guard being on duty to support the Capitol Police that day. Nancy Pelosi and Marilyn Bowser were not on board with getting the National Guard involved in protecting the Capitol and they had the power and the approval to do it and they did nothing... there you go... same kind of point you just made... The leaders in charge in DC with the power to mobilize the National Guard to protect the Capitol where the election was being certified did not act... Maybe they forgot the it was election certification day at the US Capitol... yes... that statement is ridiculous just like the usual "Orange Man Bad" mentality that that comes from people infected with TDS.

Police were outmatched? No pepper spray? No tasers, No guns drawn and used with verbal threats that indicate to anyone present that harm could come to them if they continue? Have to police ever used guns to encourage people to stop what they are doing? Ashly Babbit found out... and the cops name was finally released after it was leaked out... otherwise no one would know.

They did this at Kent State back in 1970... They shot dead 4 students that were protesting the Vietnam War... The crowd scattered that day except for the people that ran to the victims in a vain attempt to save their lives.

Plenty of Trump supporters were there that day and used the power logic and respect for the nations Capitol by NOT ENTERING the building even though they could have.

As an American you only have to understand who supports the rule of law and who doesn't... it has become pretty obvious who leads the country in undermining it from the economy to border security... one group of people is a dismal failure for the duty they pledged as government employees.

It has gotten to the point that our Federal Attorney General, Merrick Garland does nothing when threats of violence against Supreme Court Judges is filmed and seen by millions of Americans. If a Supreme Court Justice isn't protected by the people that pledged to protect our nations people... then all bets are off.
 
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Zerks said:
How do you know with absolute certainty these aren't Antifa and BLM people masquerading as Trump supporters? You don't... Don't tell me the democrats , leftist, marxist extremist don't take advantage of any situation where they can make Trump look bad. In case you haven't noticed they have been attacking and smearing Trump for 6 or 7 years ever since he announced he was running president.

Your point about Trump not saying stop ignores personal responsibility. This whole "Vicarious Liability" is a way to attach the actions of a bunch of people that clearly know they are breaking some kind of law from a simple trespass to deliberate destruction of federal property. So, give everyone a pass that got arrested and just blame Trump because he didn't say stop the process of entering the grounds of the Capitol. Whatever happened to personal responsibility for ones own actions? Trump didn't have contractual agreements with the protestors... did he? They didn't work for Trump did they?

Again... Trump was supportive of National Guard being on duty to support the Capitol Police that day. Nancy Pelosi and Marilyn Bowser were not on board with getting the National Guard involved in protecting the Capitol and they had the power and the approval to do it and they did nothing... there you go... same kind of point you just made... The leaders in charge in DC with the power to mobilize the National Guard to protect the Capitol where the election was being certified did not act... Maybe they forgot the it was election certification day at the US Capitol... yes... that statement is ridiculous just like the usual "Orange Man Bad" mentality that that comes from people infected with TDS.

Police were outmatched? No pepper spray? No tasers, No guns drawn and used with verbal threats that indicate to anyone present that harm could come to them if they continue? Have to police ever used guns to encourage people to stop what they are doing? Ashly Babbit found out... and the cops name was finally released after it was leaked out... otherwise no one would know.

They did this at Kent State back in 1970... They shot dead 4 students that were protesting the Vietnam War... The crowd scattered that day except for the people that ran to the victims in a vain attempt to save their lives.

Plenty of Trump supporters were there that day and used the power logic and respect for the nations Capitol by NOT ENTERING the building even though they could have.

As an American you only have to understand who supports the rule of law and who doesn't... it has become pretty obvious who leads the country in undermining it from the economy to border security... one group of people is a dismal failure for the duty they pledged as government employees.

It has gotten to the point that our Federal Attorney General, Merrick Garland does nothing when threats of violence against Supreme Court Judges is filmed and seen by millions of Americans. If a Supreme Court Justice isn't protected by the people that pledged to protect our nations people... then all bets are off.
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Did you watch any of the footage from that day at all?

Judging by your response I'd say no or if you did it was while wearing your suit and red tie.

The good thing is that justice is being served to those who were the worst offenders on that day, prison sentences are being handed out as we speak.

If you do a little research you will find there is no proof that Trump ordered any National Guard presence and even less that Pelosi refused this fictious request...just have to Google that to see many reports on this from many sources.

For some reason you believe Trump is some bleating lamb who was innocently standing there with his mouth agape in shock and dismay that these people were attacking the very core of your country's democracy....he worked the crowd up to a frenzy and knew exactly where they were going when they left his rally and wanted to go himself.

Then when they were repelled eventually, he thanked them and professed his love for their attempt..

This is your leader? This is the person you strongly support and defend? I question your integrity.

It's one thing to be a staunch republican (even a far right aligned one), it's another to be a blind follower of a single man....
 
Zerks said:
How do you know with absolute certainty these aren't Antifa and BLM people masquerading as Trump supporters? You don't... Don't tell me the democrats , leftist, marxist extremist don't take advantage of any situation where they can make Trump look bad. In case you haven't noticed they have been attacking and smearing Trump for 6 or 7 years ever since he announced he was running president.

Your point about Trump not saying stop ignores personal responsibility. This whole "Vicarious Liability" is a way to attach the actions of a bunch of people that clearly know they are breaking some kind of law from a simple trespass to deliberate destruction of federal property. So, give everyone a pass that got arrested and just blame Trump because he didn't say stop the process of entering the grounds of the Capitol. Whatever happened to personal responsibility for ones own actions? Trump didn't have contractual agreements with the protestors... did he? They didn't work for Trump did they?

Again... Trump was supportive of National Guard being on duty to support the Capitol Police that day. Nancy Pelosi and Marilyn Bowser were not on board with getting the National Guard involved in protecting the Capitol and they had the power and the approval to do it and they did nothing... there you go... same kind of point you just made... The leaders in charge in DC with the power to mobilize the National Guard to protect the Capitol where the election was being certified did not act... Maybe they forgot the it was election certification day at the US Capitol... yes... that statement is ridiculous just like the usual "Orange Man Bad" mentality that that comes from people infected with TDS.

Police were outmatched? No pepper spray? No tasers, No guns drawn and used with verbal threats that indicate to anyone present that harm could come to them if they continue? Have to police ever used guns to encourage people to stop what they are doing? Ashly Babbit found out... and the cops name was finally released after it was leaked out... otherwise no one would know.

They did this at Kent State back in 1970... They shot dead 4 students that were protesting the Vietnam War... The crowd scattered that day except for the people that ran to the victims in a vain attempt to save their lives.

Plenty of Trump supporters were there that day and used the power logic and respect for the nations Capitol by NOT ENTERING the building even though they could have.

As an American you only have to understand who supports the rule of law and who doesn't... it has become pretty obvious who leads the country in undermining it from the economy to border security... one group of people is a dismal failure for the duty they pledged as government employees.

It has gotten to the point that our Federal Attorney General, Merrick Garland does nothing when threats of violence against Supreme Court Judges is filmed and seen by millions of Americans. If a Supreme Court Justice isn't protected by the people that pledged to protect our nations people... then all bets are off.
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It’s interesting how Qanons and MAGAs can never own up to anything. It’s always ANTIFA’s fault or the radical left. The domestic terrorists travelled from all over the country to support Trump.

From the national guard website: This authority to activate the D.C. National Guard has been delegated, by the President, to the Secretary of Defense and further delegated to the Secretary of the Army. The D.C. National Guard is the only National Guard unit, out of all of the 54 states and territories, which reports only to the President.

So tell me how Pelosi and Bowser could interfere with the national guard?

You obviously were not there to say what was going on. There were law enforcement agencies coming in from MD and VA to provide additional support.

Im glad that law enforcement did not escalate that day. Slowly but surely, they have been arresting and sentencing people who were part of the insurrection.

In the words of former President Obama, “justice has been done”
 
Bumblebee said:
Mike,

Aren't these Democrats not American citizens as well...you speak of these people like they are Taliban or something....
Talk about a divided country....
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Micheal is simply calling a spade a spade. These people are undermining the other people of this country.

The leftist are doing this on purpose... my best guess is they want to live in a 3rd world shithole... because that is what it is producing... have you seen the homeless population living everywhere, especially in Los Angeles? Some people in San Fransisco living in million plus dollar homes are sick of stepping over feces and used needles just to get into the cars they have parked on the street.

People are leaving SF... enough is enough...
 
Bumblebee said:
Did you watch any of the footage from that day at all?

Judging by your response I'd say no or if you did it was while wearing your suit and red tie.

The good thing is that justice is being served to those who were the worst offenders on that day, prison sentences are being handed out as we speak.

If you do a little research you will find there is no proof that Trump ordered any National Guard presence and even less that Pelosi refused this fictious request...just have to Google that to see many reports on this from many sources.

For some reason you believe Trump is some bleating lamb who was innocently standing there with his mouth agape in shock and dismay that these people were attacking the very core of your country's democracy....he worked the crowd up to a frenzy and knew exactly where they were going when they left his rally and wanted to go himself.

Then when they were repelled eventually, he thanked them and professed his love for their attempt..

This is your leader? This is the person you strongly support and defend? I question your integrity.

It's one thing to be a staunch republican (even a far right aligned one), it's another to be a blind follower of a single man....
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I don't belong to either party... both are corrupt beyond measure with some exceptions. As far as what somebody reported those points you are making... how can you know with absolute certainty that what you are reading is true? These one time episodes come with camera footage..

We are getting into the "vicarious liability" component again... blame it all on Trump... common sense people know they are responsible for their own personal behavior.
 
DougE said:
It’s interesting how Qanons and MAGAs can never own up to anything. It’s always ANTIFA’s fault or the radical left. The domestic terrorists travelled from all over the country to support Trump.

From the national guard website: This authority to activate the D.C. National Guard has been delegated, by the President, to the Secretary of Defense and further delegated to the Secretary of the Army. The D.C. National Guard is the only National Guard unit, out of all of the 54 states and territories, which reports only to the President.

So tell me how Pelosi and Bowser could interfere with the national guard?

You obviously were not there to say what was going on. There were law enforcement agencies coming in from MD and VA to provide additional support.

Im glad that law enforcement did not escalate that day. Slowly but surely, they have been arresting and sentencing people who were part of the insurrection.

In the words of former President Obama, “justice has been done”
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Hi. If you look it up Pelosi is incharge of protection of the Capital. She has the power to call them in or not.
 
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