Should guns be banned?

fallenarch, please tell me what an "assault rifle" is, and why they are more dangerous than a hunting rifle.

Eehh

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hhmmm...

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There would be more bloodshed from the Gov coming to get Americans guns than you can imagine.. That is not the politically correct thing to do therefore I don't see a full ban happen.. Here is the funny part.. This shooting on Friday was not performed with assault rifles or anything outside of a normal handgun... It's going to be hard for anyone to try to justify taking assault rifles when that is not what was used.. I don't think any politician wants to take on the banning of handguns...


Capt it seems now they are saying he did most of the killing with the Bushmaster.
They found a shotgun in his trunk. Intial info was wrong.
 
Capt it seems now they are saying he did most of the killing with the Bushmaster.
They found a shotgun in his trunk. Intial info was wrong.

Okay so I just watched a CNN clip, a 20 yr old male kills his mother in her home.... Steals her legally purchased firearms and then commits a travesty with the guns... So let's ban the guns... Right? How would this be any different if someone unknown roke in and stole those weapons?

I am not going to minimize the loss of the children at all so I will not speak to this situation anymore... The real problem with this scenario is that the mother knew her son who lived with her was Autistic and he had access to the weapons.. This is an issue about an unstable person having the ability to cause harm...

hindsite is 20 / 20 right? I sold all of my guns when my oldest son was born because of the risk he might try to play with them. I could not afford a safe at the time so I go rid of the guns... My youngest son came along and so we did not bring any guns into the house until I could afford a safe... Now, I have them locked up and they have no access.. I have safety precautions in place for any firearm not in the safe so that no child can use it, heck no person could use it. The problem as I see this is that people are not taking responsibility for the weapons they have...

CAp ...
 
Here's my stance and this is coming from a guy that has more guns then carter has pills.

You can say what you want about gun control until it was your kid that was killed today by a person with a gun. Even if they get banned the bad guys will still have them, laws only keep the honest people honest.

Just a sad horrible day, those poor kids...

If my kid was in that school, I'd be against the no-gun-zone in the school.

Schools become an extremely attractive target for mass murder when there is no one in the area able to defend themselves. It's idiotic.

We arm pilots, who have no interaction with the customer. We arm our police - most of which get only a few hours of actual gun training (and then some range time during the year). Had the principle or any other adult on school grounds had a gun, they'd have been able to do more than lunge at the shooter (who promptly slaughtered them). They could have STOPPED the shooter before he killed so many students.


The US Gov't has been unable to stop drugs in America - how long have they been trying?

The US Gov't has been unable to stop alcohol during prohibition - even when they were adding poisons to medical alcohol that were later distilled.

Banning guns won't keep guns out of the hands of criminals. It will only take them out of the hands of responsible citizens. That's the true issue with gun control.


We should also consider mental issues with individuals. There is no help or care. The only time anything is done, is when they enter the criminal justice system. By then it's too late.
 
Here is the funny part.. This shooting on Friday was not performed with assault rifles or anything outside of a normal handgun...

The shooter wasn't aiming at people from 100 yards away. He was near them. It wouldn't have mattered if he used a bunch of hand guns or a rifle.

People unfamiliar with .223 aren't aware how small the .223/556 round is. They also aren't aware it takes quite a bit of space for that round to achieve maximum velocity (depending on barrel length, which allows the round to break apart in the target better).
 
How about this for a solution..

Back when I was on the PD we had a neighborhood watch, most communities have one.. Our watch all carried radios that were on the PD frequency and could immediatlely get dispatch and the officers on the radio with a click of a button... They were trained to watch and report but they had immediate response from LE.

A few years later we worked with our school administration to have trained volunteers walk and drive the school campuses at busy times... Some senior citizens, some business men from the community that walked the parking lots, football fields looking for kids smoking, drinking or whatever... Could we not do something very similiar with volunteers from our communities, arm them with whatever is deemed appropriate and let them walk the school grounds? There are many capable people able to make this happen in every community around the country...

Most fire departments are volunteer in the US, why could we not start a school patrol?

cap
 
Most fire departments are volunteer in the US, why could we not start a school patrol?

You sure they're mostly volunteer?

Anyway, I have two words for you: George Zimmerman

Regardless which side you are on for the Zimmerman situation, the fact remains that liability would shut down any volunteer situation immediately. If you allow/condone it, you'll end up being responsible.
 
Okay so I just watched a CNN clip, a 20 yr old male kills his mother in her home.... Steals her legally purchased firearms and then commits a travesty with the guns... So let's ban the guns... Right? How would this be any different if someone unknown roke in and stole those weapons?

I am not going to minimize the loss of the children at all so I will not speak to this situation anymore... The real problem with this scenario is that the mother knew her son who lived with her was Autistic and he had access to the weapons.. This is an issue about an unstable person having the ability to cause harm...

hindsite is 20 / 20 right? I sold all of my guns when my oldest son was born because of the risk he might try to play with them. I could not afford a safe at the time so I go rid of the guns... My youngest son came along and so we did not bring any guns into the house until I could afford a safe... Now, I have them locked up and they have no access.. I have safety precautions in place for any firearm not in the safe so that no child can use it, heck no person could use it. The problem as I see this is that people are not taking responsibility for the weapons they have...

CAp ...

Captain,

I reviewing your previous posts I thought you were more intelligent than this.

Just because a child has autism does not make them unstable potential killers.

I would ask you, and everyone else who posts on this board, to do a little research on Autism and specifically Aspergers Syndrome. You will quickly see how ridiculous your previous post was. I think the world will find out in the long run that because this kid was different he was tormented and teased to a degree most normal children cannot fathom. He was a product of our cruel, ignorant and thoughtless society.

Signed,

The father of one of the most kind, sweet, thoughtful and smartest 17 year old son who happens to be Autistic and has been classified on the Autism Spectrum with Aspergers.
 
I would ask you, and everyone else who posts on this board, to do a little research on Autism and specifically Aspergers Syndrome. You will quickly see how ridiculous your previous post was.


I don't think the mother was worried about him either. Multiple news reports state she had been taking him out to the shooting range and encouraged him using the guns.

As an adult in the house who was versed with the weapons, she would not have kept them locked up away from him. So all the talk about gun safes and keeping weapons away from children wouldn't apply.
 
Captain,

I reviewing your previous posts I thought you were more intelligent than this.

Just because a child has autism does not make them unstable potential killers.

I would ask you, and everyone else who posts on this board, to do a little research on Autism and specifically Aspergers Syndrome. You will quickly see how ridiculous your previous post was. I think the world will find out in the long run that because this kid was different he was tormented and teased to a degree most normal children cannot fathom. He was a product of our cruel, ignorant and thoughtless society.

Signed,

The father of one of the most kind, sweet, thoughtful and smartest 17 year old son who happens to be Autistic and has been classified on the Autism Spectrum with Aspergers.

So don't take this personally but the experts are saying that is a condition that needs attention.. While you may not have experienced this with your child (very glad) the experts again are saying that it is an issue and causes problems... So don't get defensive about the statement, I didn't make it up I read it and studied it...
 
You sure they're mostly volunteer?

Anyway, I have two words for you: George Zimmerman

Regardless which side you are on for the Zimmerman situation, the fact remains that liability would shut down any volunteer situation immediately. If you allow/condone it, you'll end up being responsible.

Read my comment again... Trained! not just anyone...

and yes, the vast majority of our country is covered by volunteer firefighters...

From wikipedia.com

According to the National Fire Protection Association, 71 percent of firefighters in the United States are volunteers.[1] The National Volunteer Fire Council represents the fire and emergency services on a national level, providing advocacy, information, resources, and programs to support volunteer first responders. The NVFC includes 49 state based firefighter associations such as the Firemen's Association of the State of New York (FASNY) which provides information, education and training for the volunteer fire and emergency medical services throughout New York State.
In the United States, the Department of Labor classifies volunteer firefighters as firefighters that receive no compensation or nominal fees up to 20% of the compensation a full-time firefighter would receive in the same capacity.[2] The DOL allows volunteer firefighters to receive benefits such as worker's compensation, health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, pension plans, length of service awards, and property tax relief. DOL defined volunteer firefighters may be paid nominal fees on a per call basis, per shift basis, or various service requirements, but may not be compensated based on productivity such as with an hourly wage.
The terms "part paid" and "paid on-call" refers to firefighters that are receiving some compensation less than the compensation a full-time firefighter would receive. It may often refer to volunteer firefighters that do not qualify as volunteers under the United States Department of Labor. They may also volunteer time for training, public education, fundraising, and other non-emergency department related activities.
 
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I don't think the mother was worried about him either. Multiple news reports state she had been taking him out to the shooting range and encouraged him using the guns.

As an adult in the house who was versed with the weapons, she would not have kept them locked up away from him. So all the talk about gun safes and keeping weapons away from children wouldn't apply.

My son's know how to shoot but that doesn't give them free access to the guns when they want... My 18 yr old son NEVER takes my firearms out by himself... Maybe that's the difference here, accountability....
 
My son's know how to shoot but that doesn't give them free access to the guns when they want... My 18 yr old son NEVER takes my firearms out by himself... Maybe that's the difference here, accountability....


If my 18 year old was in the house and someone was breaking in, I'd want him to have access to the weapons. That is their purpose!
 
Read my comment again... Trained! not just anyone...

That's why I mentioned police gun training is basically a joke. It's not like they have a PHD in gun smithing or anything. It's typically 90 minutes in class and then some range time.
 
An interesting post I can't take credit for...
--------------------

It's looking more likely that the Newtown shooter will achieve the infamy, celebrity and impact he so desperately sought. It is obvious even to a high school drop-out like myself that an insignificant
deranged speck like Adam Lanza can alter the course of history simply by murdering enough children in a few moments time.
His actions are on the lips of every citizen. Presidents appear to weep. important issues being discussed in the news are swept from the table to make room for the nonstop speculation, grisly details and "expert guests" regarding the latest tragedy.
The heritage and traditions, even the Civil Rights of an entire nation of people are called into review and the eradication of those rights is given serious consideration by a people supposedly jealous of their Liberty.

It is becoming clear that mass death can influence the actions of the Federal government in ways that even We The People can not.

The president has refused to address the people about what transpired in Benghazi.
The president has refused to address the people about Fast & Furious.
The president has refused to address the people even regarding a budget.

Yet the actions of a 20 year old deranged gunman from connecticut can set the entire continent on it's ear, and bring all the politicians forth to the cameras demanding answers and action.

Those crying loudest for "something to be done" are routinely the same ones that would see all US citizens rendered as disarmed and defenseless as the children in Sandy Hook Elementary.

Those politicians who are publicly pulling their hair out in grief in front of the cameras are the very same who could not give a rat's ass if the 20 children killed had been instead aborted in the womb.

The politicians who are so shocked at the actions of a madman are the very same that would like the guns YOU protect YOUR families with locked away forever, while they support allowing the insane and deranged like Adam Lanza to roam the streets freely because "they have rights".

The administrators of Gun Free Zone schools somehow believe that locking the shooter into the building with your children, while your children are PREVENTED from escape is morally superior than having an armed adult in the school for the prevention of massacres like Sandy Hook. While the children await other men with guns to show up and dispatch the bad guy with the gun, they and their disarmed teachers can cower in terror and wonder if they'll be counted among the dead.

The great lesson though, is saved for other would-be infamy hungry murderers: If you want to stop the world, and bring it's leaders out to discuss your actions, if you want millions of citizens lives to potentially be altered by the resonance of your actions, if your voice must be heard above all others, you know what to do. The President, The Media, and the rudder of US History await your next move.
 
I have been a student of aspergers since my son was diagnosed at 5 years old. I have 12 years of experience "Studying" Asbergers. I suggest you study more and not make flip comments about the stability of those with Aspergers. I have heard statements like yours several times in the media this last weekend and I have also heard a few that were right on the mark. Study More!
 
Another, much more famous, in it's entirety. Make up your mind: Wolf, Sheep or Sheepdog..
--------------------

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman, author of "On Killing."
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?
Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.
For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"
It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...
"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.
 
So don't take this personally but the experts are saying that is a condition that needs attention.. While you may not have experienced this with your child (very glad) the experts again are saying that it is an issue and causes problems... So don't get defensive about the statement, I didn't make it up I read it and studied it...

I have been a student of aspergers since my son was diagnosed at 5 years old. I have 12 years of experience "Studying" Asbergers. I suggest you study more and not make flip comments about the stability of those with Aspergers. I have heard statements like yours several times in the media this last weekend and I have also heard a few that were right on the mark. Study More!
 
If my 18 year old was in the house and someone was breaking in, I'd want him to have access to the weapons. That is their purpose!

My son doesn't live under my roof anymore, has no need to my weapons...
 
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