Sikh soldier completes basic training with Turban on .

[Blue'87GT]

bigotry and hypocrisy....not surprising.

On whose part?

 

[sportcustoms71]

if he can wear a turban, i'm going to my chain of command and telling them that i'm going to wear a Kilt because i'm scottish

 

[Vonderbach]

if he can wear a turban, i'm going to my chain of command and telling them that i'm going to wear a Kilt because i'm scottish

What unique skills did you bring to the military?

 

[AK Addict]

Well I tried to resist but I have to chime in here. First of all most, if not all, of us here agree we don't have a problem with the soldier we have a problem with the policy that allowed him to wear a turban and beard. But I think a couple of things have been incorrectly stated.

And for the record, he didn't volunteer, he was actively recruited, meaning that our military solicited him, not the other way around.

We have an all volunteer army, no draft these days so I would guess he did volunteer and have you ever heard of a military recruiter? All of our new "recruits" are recruited!

What unique skills did you bring to the military?

I have a serious problem with this! All of our soldiers bring a unique skill to our military and elevating one soldier above the others will divide our forces. I'm sorry I believe that all the men on the front line doing the actual fighting are quite special, not just the language experts.

There are different variations to our uniforms. Women wear different uniforms and pregnant women wear waaaay different uniforms.

True but this is due to pysical size/shape, not all soldiers are required to wear a 30 regular pants are they???? The question is should we allow Christian, Muslim and Jewish soldiers to wear a different uniforms? If we do how do you call them a uniform????


From dictionary.com

u·ni·form   /ˈyunəˌfɔrm/ Show Spelled
[yoo-nuh-fawrm] Show IPA

–adjective
1. identical or consistent, as from example to example, place to place, or moment to moment: uniform spelling; a uniform building code.
2. without variations in detail: uniform output; a uniform surface.
3. constant; unvarying; undeviating: uniform kindness; uniform velocity.
4. constituting part of a uniform: to be issued uniform shoes.
5. Mathematics . occurring in a manner independent of some variable, parameter, function, etc.: a uniform bound.
–noun
6. an identifying outfit or style of dress worn by the members of a given profession, organization, or rank.
7. a word used in communications to represent the letter U.
–verb (used with object)
8. to make uniform or standard.
9. to clothe in or furnish with a uniform.

 

[afterhours]

what it really comes down to is.....Command made a decision, to allow the beard and turban.

maybe they are looking at a bigger picture, than some of us want to admit. As much as we all want to believe, not all soldiers are equal. The military makes concessions all the time to attract or keep those with special skills.

 

[Delgado]

I don't know how the military works from the inside but, would people normally be denied the right to wearing whatever they want during basic training? Or is it during their entire time with the military? What about those that want to perform religious acts such as praying and what not. I imagine the military is made up of people from different beliefs and was just curious to know how that works.

 

[Schexy1]

just an FYI for those interested in the process. and yes there is a lot more that goes into it.

recruiting process:
1 recruiter man finds prospect(mentally, morally, physically qualified)
2 probes mr prospect to find his goals in life
3 recruiter man sells mr prospect on the idea of being part of something that can help him achieve those goals
4 mr prospect accepts proposed features and benefits recruiter man talked about-prospect is now NEW WORKING APPLICANT
4.1 mr prospect has a draw back(religion-shave) recruiter man lets focus on the bigger picture. you want to be a ____ and my organization can give you that. all you have to do is over look your drawback. and don’t worry we recognize many many religions including yours. here’s a list.
4.2 mr prospect just doesn't know. he really doesn't want to change his ways to better himself and serve HIS(citizen right!) country. recruiter man well lets talk about what your beard provides you and if it outweighs what we've talked about then I my organization CAN NOT help you achieve your goals. and you will be on your way. thank you here's a business card. You should try next door.

5. mr prospect is now NWA... along with the enlistment process goes standards(hygiene) and many many other forms that cover terrorism. our national security screening form is designed to date back only 7years hence why so many naturalized citizens wait 10+ years to enlist(red flag-why did he wait so long to enlist-probe to find his need and hidden agenda)

I guarantee that his reason for joining was NOT to translate. Job choices and such are discussed after Mr prospect has made a commitment to join your organization. Translating was something that came up as the recruiter was probing his needs and that was an opportunity for Mr prospect to be more desirable to his recruiter(yellow flag).

Enlisting as a linguist requires another test called the DLAB. Very difficult. No study guide available. he is going to have TOP SECRET CLEARANCE. TOP SECRET.

6. process at MEPS. if you want to be a Marine you have to look like a Marine the day you process.. clean cut, neat in appearance, slacks/pants, collared shirt, clean shoes, smell clean.
if you don’t want to look the part then you cant take the challenge to be the part

7. now mr NWA is mr Poolee. Mr poolee will have rules and regulations while he waits his turn to go to bootcamp 3weeks to as long as 1year. regulations including proper hygiene and clean appearance, physical fitness


8. poolees represent that recruiter that service that state this country. if you enlist the overweight kid from the special ed department is that who your branch is looking for? how about the kid with the gang tattoo's? or the kid that beat his mom and his sister into the hospital? or the guy with the DUI charges?

MOST recruiters are very selective and if Mr prospect does not show his dedication to want to change his past to better his future then why waste time changing your service(organization) to accommodate someone that isn’t really that serious about being in your service


will his unit benefit from him being a member of it? of course they will.

did the guys behind the desk make a sound tactical decision? yes they did

anyone else feel like saying it "HEY if there is a black president than I can (insert desire here)"

I’m not paid to question orders. I’m trained to perform.

Your recruitment FYI is not quite right for all cases. There are a few cases where the recruit will help the military reach its goals, especially in the area of linguistics. Concessions are made all the time. This person did not join until he recieved his waiver.

Also, I was wondering how long it woud take to blame the president or liberals.

Here is an FYI for all of you. This waiver is not new, it has been available for a long time. It just hasn't been used for the last ten years. I was in the military in the 80s. There were US Military members wearing turbins, beards and drinking wine with thier lunch for religious reasons back then. Why is it a problem now?

 

[Schexy1]

Well I tried to resist but I have to chime in here. First of all most, if not all, of us here agree we don't have a problem with the soldier we have a problem with the policy that allowed him to wear a turban and beard. But I think a couple of things have been incorrectly stated.

We have an all volunteer army, no draft these days so I would guess he did volunteer and have you ever heard of a military recruiter? All of our new "recruits" are recruited!

I have a serious problem with this! All of our soldiers bring a unique skill to our military and elevating one soldier above the others will divide our forces. I'm sorry I believe that all the men on the front line doing the actual fighting are quite special, not just the language experts.

Most Recruiters are there to ensure quotas are filled. The ones that go to the high schools are just there to pass out info and answer questions. They really don't recruit. True recruiting rarely takes place outside of college campuses and mostly in the engineering and medical schools. So to say all are recruited is incorrecet because most recruits seek out recruiters.

Being special and having a special skill are two different things. I have a friend who was a Drill Instructor. He said he could make anyone into a killing machine in six weeks. He could make a marksman out of someone who had never even held a gun. How long do you think it would take to make someone into a translator for a language they didn't know? How long do you think it would take to make a Field Surgeon out of someone doesn't even know CPR.

Sorry but some soldiers bring a little more to the table than others.

 

[Fernman]

Same thing happened with a female Police officer a while back wearing a face cover.
Thank them for serving.

 

[Vonderbach]

We have an all volunteer army, no draft these days so I would guess he did volunteer and have you ever heard of a military recruiter? All of our new "recruits" are recruited!

Your getting lost in the terminology. Recruited soldiers still volunteer to serve, they are not sought out for their skills normally. Some are, and when special considerations are needed for those skills, there are provisions made.

I have a serious problem with this! All of our soldiers bring a unique skill to our military and elevating one soldier above the others will divide our forces. I'm sorry I believe that all the men on the front line doing the actual fighting are quite special, not just the language experts.

You're misrepresenting what I said. This man has special skills that are not found with the average soldier. If the military desires these skills, then they must oblige his wishes. They could easily refuse, allowing this skill set to go untapped, and we would be poorer for it. So we have a choice, let the man wear a different head covering and retain his facial hair, or potentially lose LIVES from being unable to translate some Hindi/Punjabi Muslim radio chatter! Which is more important to you?

Placing pride before common sense makes no sense at all.

 

[DaCol.]

Your getting lost in the terminology. Recruited soldiers still volunteer to serve, they are not sought out for their skills normally. Some are, and when special considerations are needed for those skills, there are provisions made.


You're misrepresenting what I said. This man has special skills that are not found with the average soldier. If the military desires these skills, then they must oblige his wishes. They could easily refuse, allowing this skill set to go untapped, and we would be poorer for it. So we have a choice, let the man wear a different head covering and retain his facial hair, or potentially lose LIVES from being unable to translate some Hindi/Punjabi Muslim radio chatter! Which is more important to you?

Placing pride before common sense makes no sense at all.

You guys are missing alot ! My question is why he was recruited in the Army ? He could have been recruited into the Government Service section (Civilian GS 5 thru 7) , where he would do the samething, make LOTS MORE MONEY, have better benefits and not have to put up with Basic Training (which according to you guys will NEVER be used) or the general BS the Military does.

Just wondering what value he has as a Private with E-2 Pay and Duties other than when he is performing his MOS ??? ? Seems to me, HE GOT SHAFTED by some recruiter

 

[Vonderbach]

I don't know, perhaps we should ask the C.O. that recruited him? Apparently they had good reason.

 

[DaCol.]

I don't know, perhaps we should ask the C.O. that recruited him? Apparently they had good reason.

Exactly, there is no Commanding Officer (CO) who recruits, just NCO's who report their applicants to their Higher Authority. In my opinion, both he and the Nation would be better served by him being a Government Service Employee for MANY reasons.

Of course that eliminates the NEW PC attitude in the Upper Military Levels of the INSANE INCLUSIVENESS of everybody and everything attitude no matter what. No one considers you can both be inclusive and NOT violate Policys that are based on mission accomplishment. For those of you who have never served, the Military is NOT a group of individuals. It's a Team who together accomplish the mission without regard to who is or is not with them. But this requires a strick code of uniformity. If one person in the group thinks he is left out or is getting treated differently than the others. That unit is doomed to FAILURE . PLan and Simple

 

[Vonderbach]

I'm sure a C.O. was required to make the exceptions though....probably a very high ranking one at that.

I have to say, I'm really disappointed that you assume our troops so incapable of befriending this man just because he's "different." It's not like he's getting extra rations or a goose down pillow at night. Any soldier given the proper information as to why he was recruited should immediately appreciate the "great sacrifice" in allowing him to go unshaven and wear a funny hat.

 

[DaCol.]

I'm sure a C.O. was required to make the exceptions though....probably a very high ranking one at that.

I have to say, I'm really disappointed that you assume our troops so incapable of befriending this man just because he's "different." It's not like he's getting extra rations or a goose down pillow at night. Any soldier given the proper information as to why he was recruited should immediately appreciate the "great sacrifice" in allowing him to go unshaven and wear a funny hat.

I see you don't understand what I am talking about. Your looking at this as an individuals rights to change policies and grant special privilidges that no one else is allowed. I look at it from what actually happens (Ft Hood is a great example of non assimilation). And, knowing you have no idea about my background, I worked with the Indian Army for 1 1/2 years with their combat units in Africa. So, I kinda think I know about their policies and practices whether or not some on line Encyclocpedia agrees or not. I speak from experience of 30 years (mostly overseas working with foreign Militarys) and the practical world, and they speak from the point of what it is suppose to be. You might like to know that a Real Sikh would NEVER take orders from one of the lower cast members. So, what happens if he is confronted with this ? And if he insist on wearing the Beard and Turban, he is stating he is a Totally Practicing Sikh . Again, kinda like the Saudi Pilots would NOT take orders or directions from a Woman ATC during Desert Storm. Nor, could any Clergy wear their INSIGNA'S on their uniform. The real world is quit different from the World most Americans think exist.

Nuff Said, I QUIT

 

[Vonderbach]

I'm glad you know so much about Sikh's to assume what they will or won't do in the U.S. Military.

But like you said, you quit. I win.

 

[Schexy1]

You guys are missing alot ! My question is why he was recruited in the Army ? He could have been recruited into the Government Service section (Civilian GS 5 thru 7) , where he would do the samething, make LOTS MORE MONEY, have better benefits and not have to put up with Basic Training (which according to you guys will NEVER be used) or the general BS the Military does.

Just wondering what value he has as a Private with E-2 Pay and Duties other than when he is performing his MOS ??? ? Seems to me, HE GOT SHAFTED by some recruiter

I think you are not understanding the whole situation. If he was recruited for his skills or not, isn't the issue. There really is no issue. There were no policy changes made for him.

He joined the Army because he wanted to. He recieved a waiver based on religious practices. He applied for the waiver and was denied. He apealed the decision to a higher level where it was approved. They did nothing splecial for him, the waiver has been in place for decades. The story is, he is the first person to use it in 10 years.

As I stated earlier, people are granted waivers for religious purposes. Maybe you should look into what else is allowed in the name of religion, you might suprised.

 

[pubwilson]

Zuk I in most ways agree with you but isn't it a pandoras box ?
Now folks from others denominations will look to his precedent and want the same , no ?
Will a Muslim be allowed to wear a turban ?
Will a Jew be allowed to wear a yamaka ?
Will a Rastafarian be allowed to have four foot long dreads ?

I saw yamakas while serving, but only during non-combat duty stations. Native Indians can smoke peotee (not sure on spelling) during rituals. Plus this guy must have been high speed since they picked him the carry the guidon.

 

[afterhours]

do people purposely ignore basic facts about thi situation?

this man followed the military procedures, that have been in place for nearly 30 years. He was granted a waiver for the beard and turban.

 

[pubwilson]

I see you don't understand what I am talking about. Your looking at this as an individuals rights to change policies and grant special privilidges that no one else is allowed. I look at it from what actually happens (Ft Hood is a great example of non assimilation). And, knowing you have no idea about my background, I worked with the Indian Army for 1 1/2 years with their combat units in Africa. So, I kinda think I know about their policies and practices whether or not some on line Encyclocpedia agrees or not. I speak from experience of 30 years (mostly overseas working with foreign Militarys) and the practical world, and they speak from the point of what it is suppose to be. You might like to know that a Real Sikh would NEVER take orders from one of the lower cast members. So, what happens if he is confronted with this ? And if he insist on wearing the Beard and Turban, he is stating he is a Totally Practicing Sikh . Again, kinda like the Saudi Pilots would NOT take orders or directions from a Woman ATC during Desert Storm. Nor, could any Clergy wear their INSIGNA'S on their uniform. The real world is quit different from the World most Americans think exist.

Nuff Said, I QUIT

This guy is on a short rope, even if he doesn't think so. I doubt he'd not take orders, but first time he doesn't, Chapter 13 for his behind.
Plus you got any domestic military time, or just a merc for hire?