Soleimani and the Middle East

GAmedic said:
It was suicide by Clinton.

Leta go eat pie.
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shade said:
This is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard. There are so many opportunities for people especially minorities its disgusting. This is speaking as a minority who came from little opportunity but created my own. If you think the American government is set up against giving opportunity, please do us a favor... leave our great country. Go see what opportunities exist elsewhere. You have no idea what you're talking about but try to sound like an intellectual. Try again.
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Are you trump's *****?
 
Mr Brown said:
What is, specifically, the American dream, and what gives you the authority to make such a definitive statement as "always"?

Success is defined in many ways, which type are you referring to here? Asserting that individual success is solely within the control of that individual is reductive and inaccurate. There are external factors which contribute to an individual's ability to be successful no matter how you define success.

A community is a specific group, by definition. Not sure what point you were driving at here...unless you were trying to say that a person's lack of success is in some way tied to their identification with a group? As in a person saying "... this group is measurably less successful, so I think I'll identify with it..."? That's absurd. Obviously nobody would voluntarily do that. Success has far less to do with an individual's self-definition than with how society defines that individual. Success by any metric you want to use isn't merely a result of attitudes, values, and direction. People who are disadvantaged can't simply "think" their disadvantage away, or why on earth wouldn't they? Nor can they just work that disadvantage away, to believe that is to believe that the poor are poor because they don't work hard enough not to be, and if you've ever seen (or been one of the) people working 18 hour days at sh!tty dead end jobs, you know that's not true.
Success is largely based on opportunity, and that is not provided equally to all members of society, American or any other. This country, and many like it, systematically deny opportunity to specific populations within their own borders, and reinforce this denial with legal, economic, and social barriers.
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Mr. Brown, no harm meant. I might be mistaken, but you appear to feel disenfranchised because you associate with a certain group. I on the other hand believe in capitalism and survival of the fittest, applicable to all humans. The “community” I referred to was poor English. I meant North America. It could be that we have very different values and I do not judge yours. This could be a very interesting debate, but it would need a high degree of maturity with some ground rules agreed. I do not wish to cause friction here though, so would rather change the subject.
 
jellyrug said:
Mr. Brown, no harm meant. I might be mistaken, but you appear to feel disenfranchised because you associate with a certain group. I on the other hand believe in capitalism and survival of the fittest, applicable to all humans. The “community” I referred to was poor English. I meant North America. It could be that we have very different values and I do not judge yours. This could be a very interesting debate, but it would need a high degree of maturity with some ground rules agreed. I do not wish to cause friction here though, so would rather change the subject.
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I don't think it is a question of different values as much as different experiences. @Mr Brown is a very accomplished expert on this very subject as well as a successful participant in our capitalist system. I am also pretty accomplished by most measures. Yet we and many like us, see every day the inequities in our system and the demographic data bears this out as more than our alleged "victim mentality". So it's not a feeling of being disenfranchised, it's being a witness to basic human rights violations targeted at certain populations and not being willing to accept that as status quo.

It would indeed be an interesting debate, but the facts are the facts and those cannot be debated if the goal is the truth. You seem like an intelligent guy (I pretend you're not just to pull your chain, lol) and you seem quite active on this subject here on the org. So maybe it can be discussed. I would suggest starting with a stipulation of relevant facts. If you like I will stay out of it and let you and Mr. Brown discuss it.
 
fallenarch said:
I don't think it is a question of different values as much as different experiences. @Mr Brown is a very accomplished expert on this very subject as well as a successful participant in our capitalist system. I am also pretty accomplished by most measures. Yet we and many like us, see every day the inequities in our system and the demographic data bears this out as more than our alleged "victim mentality". So it's not a feeling of being disenfranchised, it's being a witness to basic human rights violations targeted at certain populations and not being willing to accept that as status quo.

It would indeed be an interesting debate, but the facts are the facts and those cannot be debated if the goal is the truth. You seem like an intelligent guy (I pretend you're not just to pull your chain, lol) and you seem quite active on this subject here on the org. So maybe it can be discussed. I would suggest starting with a stipulation of relevant facts. If you like I will stay out of it and let you and Mr. Brown discuss it.
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Arch, this is meant well, so don’t take offense. You and Mr. Brown are the most active on this subject. I look at the world through very different lenses and therefore respond to what you guys start. It remains a sensitive subject and is probably better left alone.
 
jellyrug said:
Mr. Brown, no harm meant. I might be mistaken, but you appear to feel disenfranchised because you associate with a certain group. I on the other hand believe in capitalism and survival of the fittest, applicable to all humans. The “community” I referred to was poor English. I meant North America. It could be that we have very different values and I do not judge yours. This could be a very interesting debate, but it would need a high degree of maturity with some ground rules agreed. I do not wish to cause friction here though, so would rather change the subject.
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No harm taken.
I don't feel disenfranchised personally, I have been fortunate in my life and I am in a position to draw attention to this matter. What I am referring to is the institutional, engrained, societal barriers which affect many people in this country, not only non-whites. As I said, how one sees one's self is all but irrelevant, it's the category into which society puts one that matters. Your personal experience is an excellent opportunity to look at how that works, actually. Do you think that a non-white person born at the same time and place as you was likely to have been as successful as you have been? I think we can agree they would not, which leads me to ask why. Did they attend the same schools as you? Did they eat the same food as you? Did they worship at the same places as you? Did they live in the same neighborhood as you? Did their parents have similar careers to the ones yours did? Were they apprenticed into similar trades and taught skills as you were? The answer to all these questions, is no. None of the opportunities that you had were available to non-whites in the place and time you grew up, and yet even with all these measurable differences in opportunity, you insist that your success is based solely on how you see the world and what group(s) you associate yourself with. I'm not doubting that you worked hard to get to where you are, my point is that you were the beneficiary of a system that rewarded your hard work in very different ways than the hard work of others at the same time and place. The same advantages apply to certain groups within the US as well, and while not enforced legally any longer, by virtue of other mechanisms still negatively affect non-whites at higher rates. They also affect poor whites at similar rates, but one of the mechanisms used to protect the power structure is the construction of race as an essential and preeminent means of division.

Regarding your comment that Arch and I are the most active on the subject, that is because we are forced to deal with it on a daily, if not even more frequent basis. One of the advantages that a system of institutional discrimination provides is the ability for privilege. You don't have to concern yourself with race, because your race is understood as the norm from which others differ. Arch and I do not have that privilege.
 
Always a touchy subject and one hard to broach.

I personally have had people from all races and religions work beside me without issues...we've always got along famously.

I have (on the other hand) heard and corrected people for racist, homophobic and sexist comments during my career so I know these things are still out there and rampant sadly....

Islamophobia is a thing and a very prominent thing...and it is prevalent from all races and ethnic groups.

The world is a tough place and even though we are well into the 21st century, it hasn't changed a whole heck of a lot when it comes to these things.
 
Mr Brown said:
No harm taken.
I don't feel disenfranchised personally, I have been fortunate in my life and I am in a position to draw attention to this matter. What I am referring to is the institutional, engrained, societal barriers which affect many people in this country, not only non-whites. As I said, how one sees one's self is all but irrelevant, it's the category into which society puts one that matters. Your personal experience is an excellent opportunity to look at how that works, actually. Do you think that a non-white person born at the same time and place as you was likely to have been as successful as you have been? I think we can agree they would not, which leads me to ask why. Did they attend the same schools as you? Did they eat the same food as you? Did they worship at the same places as you? Did they live in the same neighborhood as you? Did their parents have similar careers to the ones yours did? Were they apprenticed into similar trades and taught skills as you were? The answer to all these questions, is no. None of the opportunities that you had were available to non-whites in the place and time you grew up, and yet even with all these measurable differences in opportunity, you insist that your success is based solely on how you see the world and what group(s) you associate yourself with. I'm not doubting that you worked hard to get to where you are, my point is that you were the beneficiary of a system that rewarded your hard work in very different ways than the hard work of others at the same time and place. The same advantages apply to certain groups within the US as well, and while not enforced legally any longer, by virtue of other mechanisms still negatively affect non-whites at higher rates. They also affect poor whites at similar rates, but one of the mechanisms used to protect the power structure is the construction of race as an essential and preeminent means of division.

Regarding your comment that Arch and I are the most active on the subject, that is because we are forced to deal with it on a daily, if not even more frequent basis. One of the advantages that a system of institutional discrimination provides is the ability for privilege. You don't have to concern yourself with race, because your race is understood as the norm from which others differ. Arch and I do not have that privilege.
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OK, I am going to dare my last post in this thread.

Considering averages, you are correct, but is that because of frame of mind, values and character, or do you really believe that it is category group or race orientated? Especially in today's world in the US??

Where I grew up, I have friends today still, who are of tribal origin, yet they are extremely wealthy, successful and think more along the lines I do. Some of them have left their country of origin, some are trying to leave, some are patriotic and believe they still belong there. The latter are in minority, but they believe they can change the place for the better.

One can learn a lot from the most powerful mammal who possesses a strong social culture. The African lion has an autocratic leader who calls all the shots, the strong takes care of the weak. The leader will fight to protect his position and either win, die, or be expelled from the group to continue a lonely life. The pack is extremely territorial and will defend their territory with their lives to the bitter end.

We see many similarities among human beings, examples being Shia versus Sunni, the different tribes in Africa 100's of years ago, today different countries in Africa. They are still group orientated and don't get along simply because of their group association. They still kill each other for no good reason, simply due to religion, or different values. In most cases they have the same appearance, just different values. Then there are the Urban folks, where people from all over the world formed a new nation and the only difference is their appearance, as they have lost their tribal identity. Some of them don't get along simply due to appearance. I call that a level 1 civilization, the African lion is an example of a level 0 civilization.

The first world we live in today, composed of modern more civilized countries is a level 2 civilization. There is still a lot of attachment to groups, but mostly related to race, or rather appearance. The universal language though is English, the Dollar is the reserve currency, American music dominates the planet and the economy is global. The internet has become our new telephone system, it is global. We still see some of level 1 behavior, but it has changed to politics and fortune 500 corporate behavior, rather than people taking each others lives. We have a massive overpopulation problem, as we have defied nature. The reason the third world countries fight America, is simply a level 0 culture behavior, based on protecting tribal identity.

We will either destroy the planet and return it to a level 0 culture entirely, or we will someday elevate it to a level 3 civilization, where we control the population to manageable levels, have no tribal identities, one race being human beings protecting the planet as a whole and searching for new life to sustain survival in space.

So there you have it, in as much philosophy as I can afford today. Some of us are thinking level 3, some of us are still stuck in level 2 and in the Middle East some of us are still stuck at level 1.

BTW I spent years researching the African lion, shooting them with a camera and leading tourists through their territory as a voluntary game ranger. There are some really good books, comparing their behaviour to human culture.
 
jellyrug said:
OK, I am going to dare my last post in this thread.

Considering averages, you are correct, but is that because of frame of mind, values and character, or do you really believe that it is category group or race orientated? Especially in today's world in the US??

Where I grew up, I have friends today still, who are of tribal origin, yet they are extremely wealthy, successful and think more along the lines I do. Some of them have left their country of origin, some are trying to leave, some are patriotic and believe they still belong there. The latter are in minority, but they believe they can change the place for the better.

One can learn a lot from the most powerful mammal who possesses a strong social culture. The African lion has an autocratic leader who calls all the shots, the strong takes care of the weak. The leader will fight to protect his position and either win, die, or be expelled from the group to continue a lonely life. The pack is extremely territorial and will defend their territory with their lives to the bitter end.

We see many similarities among human beings, examples being Shia versus Sunni, the different tribes in Africa 100's of years ago, today different countries in Africa. They are still group orientated and don't get along simply because of their group association. They still kill each other for no good reason, simply due to religion, or different values. In most cases they have the same appearance, just different values. Then there are the Urban folks, where people from all over the world formed a new nation and the only difference is their appearance, as they have lost their tribal identity. Some of them don't get along simply due to appearance. I call that a level 1 civilization, the African lion is an example of a level 0 civilization.

The first world we live in today, composed of modern more civilized countries is a level 2 civilization. There is still a lot of attachment to groups, but mostly related to race, or rather appearance. The universal language though is English, the Dollar is the reserve currency, American music dominates the planet and the economy is global. The internet has become our new telephone system, it is global. We still see some of level 1 behavior, but it has changed to politics and fortune 500 corporate behavior, rather than people taking each others lives. We have a massive overpopulation problem, as we have defied nature. The reason the third world countries fight America, is simply a level 0 culture behavior, based on protecting tribal identity.

We will either destroy the planet and return it to a level 0 culture entirely, or we will someday elevate it to a level 3 civilization, where we control the population to manageable levels, have no tribal identities, one race being human beings protecting the planet as a whole and searching for new life to sustain survival in space.

So there you have it, in as much philosophy as I can afford today. Some of us are thinking level 3, some of us are still stuck in level 2 and in the Middle East some of us are still stuck at level 1.

BTW I spent years researching the African lion, shooting them with a camera and leading tourists through their territory as a voluntary game ranger. There are some really good books, comparing their behaviour to human culture.
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I don't have the time right now to address this, but I absolutely will later today or tomorrow. It deserves a proper response, and it shall have one. To be continued.
 
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