The Golden Compass

[black_angel]

and then again

 

[black_angel]

finally

 

[WWJD]

where's that cool practice where you get to utter things backwards and burn small items? That sounds like a freakin blast! All I ever get to do is sing happy songs, work to positively reinforce others with hope, and donate the cost of a double cheese burger on Sundays. Heck, I don't even get 29 VIRGINS!! What am I stupid? I need to rethink my religion!

*those that have been here longer enough understand my slanted sarcasm

.

 

[CrashBomb]

Christ has everything to do with Christmas.It's the celebration of Christ birth.The giving of the gifts comes from the 3 wise men bearing gifts for the new born King.The tree is a simble of the manger,the star on top of the tree is for the north star shining bright above the manger in Bethleham.The gifts put under the tree represents the gifts the wise men set at Christ feet the day of his birth.

Human nature....rebellious and skeered of the truth.

Actually, if you do a bit of research you find that about 99% of the Christian Christmas traditions predate Christianity by several millenia.

The practice of gift giving at Christmas is borrowed from the tradition of Sankt Nikolaus, the Greek patron saint of seafarers. The legend states that on December 6th, St. Nikolaus would return from his seaborne voyages and inquire as to the behavior of his children in his absence. If they had controlled themselves and not caused trouble they would receive candies and sweet breads as gifts. Pagan Germanic tribes also had a Saint Nicholas tradition in which a bearded and robed figure would visit houses on the night of December 6th (widely accepted as the day the Greek Sankt Nikolaus died) and inquire as to children's behavior over the past year. If they could sing a song or recite a lesson they would be rewarded, if they could not they would be punished.

The tree is the "simble"[sic] of the pagan Germanic reverence of the fir tree. Winter in the northern countries is extremely harsh. As the early Germans observed the fall season and the gradual death of nature, plants and leaves of trees began to change color, shrivel up and fall to the ground. Being largely polytheistic and believing that spirits were present in every object they blamed the evil spirits for the death of nature. The few trees that appeared to stay "alive" were the evergreens, and to the pagans they became a symbol of immortality. Benign spirits that lived in the evergreen were believed to resist the life-threatening powers of darkness and cold. The pagans believed the special powers of these trees would extend to whoever possessed or cultivated them, and so they brought the greenery into their homes over the winter to protect themselves.

The gifts I believe I've already explained, but Christian history certainly can't lay claim to have "invented" gift giving at festival times. This dates back to harvest and fertility festivals that predate recorded human history. All anthropological evidence indicates that we were giving each other gifts at festive times of year while we were still largely hunter gatherers and before we even became an sedentary agricultural society.

Many of the "pagan" traditions surrounding the Christmas celebration were actually declared immoral and illegal by the early Puritans in New England and were banned because of their obvious ties to non-Christian traditions. It wasn't until the start of the industrial revolution and the rise of commercialist society in the late 19th century that many of the traditions that Christians feel link Christmas to Christ became widely accepted and celebrated.

The early church missionaries placed Christ's birth at the time of the winter solstice and his death at the time of the vernal equinox in order to legitimize the new religion with the pagans they wished to convert. Both of these dates were extremely important in the pre-Christian and post-Christian pagan traditions and it's no accident that biblical scholars in the 12th and 13th centuries engineered a messiah who was born on one and was crucified on the other.

 

[razorshark]

Ok, I think I get it now...if you go watch this movie, then Christmas will go away?

Its a work of FICTION, its ART, the interpretation of its meaning or theme is based on the viewer, not the maker...understanding the point of the artist in their creation of his/her work is pointless because everyone thinks differently, acts independant of others because everyone doesn't share the same brain, body or soul. To think that a movie could influence the masses in this age of entertainment is about as silly as believing that listening to Marilyn Manson will turn people into Satanists.

That reminds me...got to go sacrifice the goat now.

 

[proud dad]

 

[Pfal]

By razorshark | Posted on Nov. 26 2007, 7

PM
<div class="iF-Passage"><div class="QUOTEHEAD">Quote:[/Quote]<div class="QUOTE clearfix"><span class="quoteBegin"> </span>



Its a work of FICTION, its ART, the interpretation of its meaning or theme is based on the viewer, not the maker...understanding the point of the artist in their creation of his/her work is pointless because everyone thinks differently, acts independant of others because everyone doesn't share the same brain, body or soul. [/quote]


Ummmm..........WOW!!! A voice of reason. I couldn't of said it better

I'm on the fence with all religion.

First there was a big bang, years later ice melted into water then the dinosaurs evolved from out of the waters. But they ate too much and got really really cold from this giant rock that crashed into planet earth. Many years went by and out of the water again came other life that soon became MAN.  

Slowly his brain evolved into something that had not existed thus far on the planet, free thinking intelligence that has the ability to reason. That's when all of our problems start.


Since then there has always been some type of religious belief to explain what we can not explain with deductive reasoning. Without it we have chaos.

That's why we are arguing over a movie created by another free thinker. Who cares what someone believes in, including the creator of this movie. It's not like this guy is coming in your back yard and kicking your cat and shooting your dog.

Sorry, religion is just a way to control the masses.

And closed minded thinkers of either side of the religious fence are the ones creating the problems in society today.

 

[CrashBomb]

Sorry, religion is just a way to control the masses.

"Religion is the opiate of the masses."
-Karl Marx

 

[Bird Hunter]

 

[delboy]

By the way , Hold a gun to the head of an atheist and see who he pleds for !

 

[WWJD]

Wow, crashbomb, there's a big pile of history I wasn't alive to see or participate in.

Right now, here, today, in THIS reality, THIS WORLD HERE NOW TODAY [get what I'm saying?] , CHRISTmas is THEE celebration of Christ's birth for a very large number of peoples. Sorry, but that is the truth. It's just a representation and not a cold, hard date. Whether the date is exact or accurate makes NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER about the purpose of the celebration. Heck, I RARELY celebrate MY birthday ON my birthday.

I'm surrounded by "pagan celebrations" 364 days a year. I don't think ONE day for Christ is gonna kill anyone.

Big bang? When was that proven as truth over theory? I must have missed that on CNN. And here I always thought explosions DESTROYED things
So, you're saying, after we got smart with our brain, WE invented God? Why would we do such a silly thing? That makes no sense. We don't even need a God... just look at how well society runs itself nowdays.
Oh. My apologies on that one.

Is this the same brains we use to dicern that reality TV is "entertaining", living for "me" is the best way, and homelessness and government corruption should continue? Gee, sign me up!

WE must be freakin geniuses.

I've been religous quite a while and have NEVER felt controlled. Quite the opposite actually. Much freedom in knowing life

 

[delboy]

<div class="iF-Passage"><div class="QUOTEHEAD">Quote:[/Quote]<div class="QUOTE clearfix"><span class="quoteBegin"> </span>
Hold a gun to the head of an atheist and see who he pleds for ![/quote]

Sorry I was waiting for a reply

?

Sorry guys and gals but my wife is a witch, i have this aroung my neck, will this make me evil

 

[CrashBomb]

Wow, crashbomb, there's a big pile of history I wasn't alive to see or participate in.

Right now, here, today, in THIS reality, THIS WORLD HERE NOW TODAY [get what I'm saying?] , CHRISTmas is THEE celebration of Christ's birth for a very large number of peoples. Sorry, but that is the truth. It's just a representation and not a cold, hard date. Whether the date is exact or accurate makes NO DIFFERENCE WHAT SO EVER about the purpose of the celebration. Heck, I RARELY celebrate MY birthday ON my birthday.

I'm not arguing that it makes any difference to today's practicing Christians where these traditions came from. I'm simply providing an alternative viewpoint backed up by historical fact. It's not judgmental and I don't believe it lends any more or less credibility to any of the religions in question. You worship in the way that you feel is necessary to get through the world and I have the utmost respect for all peoples of faith [get what I'M saying?]

But to imply that all these Christian Christmas celebrations just sprang forth from the ground the moment Christ (as many Christians admittedly do) was born shows a true lack of understanding of the historical record. Although, you don't seem to be concerned with anything you weren't alive to see or participate in.

Religions have been borrowing and modifying material from previous belief systems since the dawn of time. Sorry, but that is also the truth. It doesn't mean it's "right" and it doesn't mean it's "wrong" in the Aristotelian sense of the words, it's just how things have always gone.

 

[delboy]

A winter festival has been a traditional festival in many cultures due to the winter solstice. In part, the Christmas celebration was created by the early Church in order to entice pagan Romans to convert to Christianity without losing their own winter celebrations. Most of the most important gods in the religions of Ishtar and Mithra had their birthdays on December 25. Various traditions are considered to have been syncretised from various winter festivals.

 

[proud dad]

 

[CrashBomb]

Big bang? When was that proven as truth over theory? I must have missed that on CNN. And here I always thought explosions DESTROYED things

The misunderstanding here derives from a confusion over the word "theory." It's a very common argument that has plagued the scientific community for many years. Popular conception of language states that if something is a "theory" then it remains unproven. The word "theory" itself tends to lend less credibility to a position because of the implications of the word itself.

Scientific understanding states that for a "theory" to be considered for entry into the scientific record it must be falsifiable, that is "able to be disproved or refuted through logic or scientific experimentation." On huge cosmic questions such as, "Where did the universe come from?" or, "What happens inside a black hole?" experimentation is currently impossible and cosmologists must use observational science and the known laws of physics to make a kind of "best guess" with the data they have available. True, a "theory" is refutable through various channels, but to claim that a position is less credible just because it happens to be called a "theory of whatever" is a failure of language. In scientific understanding "theory" and "fact" do not stand in opposition as they do in common language.

Some other notable "theories;" that is to say, they haven't been disproved and it's unlikely that they ever will be, but it's POSSIBLE to disprove them and so they remain "theory" instead of "law:"

The "theory" of evolution.

The "theory" of universal gravitation.

The "theory" of general relativity.

And I doubt you'll see anything on CNN even remotely pertaining to scientific discovery. Most people just aren't interested enough to justify devoting expensive airtime to things like this, the ratings won't allow it. Relying on the mass media to inform you of important cosmological discoveries is like getting in a boat full of holes and just hoping it takes you to the other side of the lake. Ok...you might make it there, but you're going to have to do your own bailing and you're going to get wet in the process.

The other failure of language we're talking about here revolves around "Big Bang" (specifically the "bang" part) and "explosion." The Big Bang model hypothesis does not argue an "explosion" per se, at least not in the widely understood conception of "explosion," say a building blowing up. Even if it did, surely you don't contend that an exploding building is "destroyed." Its shape is changed, and the interconnectedness that made it a "building" is gone, but all the pieces are still there. Whatever the building was made up of is still there in the pile of rubble. The explosive force pushes the materials outward and it is gravity that pulls them back to earth. The Hawking Principle and his Information Paradox both deal with this situation. If a similar explosion were to occur in the zero gravity realm of space it would push the pieces away from the central explosive point and they would continue on their trajectory until acted on by another outside force.

The Big Bang cosmological model does not argue for a tremendous "explosion" as we know the word. There probably wasn't really much of a "bang" and it wasn't very "big." It's just a term...like "theory." The theory postulates that the universe was already an extremely hot and dense nucleus due to frictional compression and it actually needed very little explosive force to nudge it into expansion. From there, universal gravitation and the Newtonian theories of motion allowed it to continue its expansion to an infinite point.

This is consistent with all currently accepted theories of general relativity and the cosmological principle, and is supported by observational evidence including light spectrum analysis and microwave background radiation. Hubble's theory and the Copernican principle both suggest that the universe itself is expanding and will continue to do so at all measurable timescales. The Big Bang model also fits in precisely and perfectly to the Friedmann-Lemairte-Robertson-Walker metrics (also known as a Riemannian geometric manifold) which are exact answers to the Einstein field equations that describe a regular and isotropic (i.e. independent of direction of measurement) expansion of the universe. In other words, what this all means is that when you plug the numbers from the Big Bang model into all the known equations we use to understand the way the universe works you come up with a precise real integer answer that balances the equations. It's actually a very impressive process and it's almost beautiful in its perfection and simplicity, even if you don't understand the mathematics behind it.

 

[CrashBomb]

Sorry guys and gals but my wife is a witch, i have this around my neck, will this make me evil?

Actually, Del, the pentagram used to be a very important and revered symbol in Christian theology. Of course the Christian faith borrowed them from ancient Babylonian culture, but they had their own interpretation of what it meant.

Most anthropologists suggest that the symbol derives from prehistoric astronomers observing the celestial movement of the planet Venus. Seen from Earth, the successive conjunctions of Venus against the Zodiac draw an almost perfect pentagram every dozen years or so. Since Venus is often the most noticeable (if not the brightest) object in the night sky and obviously does not move like a star, many prehistoric civilizations worshiped this strange "wandering star" that seemed to glide across the sky as the bringer of light and knowledge. From those early beliefs we arrive at the worship of the Roman goddess Venus.

Early Christianity adopted the pentagram during the pre-medieval period as a symbol for the five human senses. Many early Christian pentagrams were inscribed with S,A,L,U,S, one letter on each point, which is Latin for "health." They were usually seen as protection talismans that would bring good health. The medieval Christian monastic traditions took the symbol to represent the five wounds of Christ on the cross and considered it a kind of holy stamp. It was often used on the covers and end plates of monastic scrolls to differentiate the religious texts from secular texts while they were still on the rack without having to unroll them.

The pentagram has also been heavily used in Arthurian legend. It appeared on Gawain's shield in illustrations of Sir Gawian and the Green Knight in the 14th century, and many different five sided theories have been put forward to explain its Christian significance. I'll just leave it at that since I'm sure you have a better understanding of the Arthurian legends than many of our American readers do, just because of their cultural significance in your country.

The five sided star didn't become a symbol of "evil" until certain practitioners of ceremonial magic began to turn the pentagram upside down in its circle. Early Satanists quickly latched onto this because of its obvious similarity to a picture of a horned goat...devil...demon...thing.

If wearing that makes you "evil" then every country that has used it on a flag (Morocco comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others), every organization that has ever used it (Freemasonry, followers of Samael Weor), and even the very religions from which the symbolism sprung are also evil by association.

 

[RedBusa]

Good post CrashBomb,"¦ I hear people frequently berating scientific conclusions because of their misconception of "Ëœtheory' in a scientific context. Many major scientific "Ëœtheories' have been tested to incredible accuracy (QED), but because they are incomplete, it does not mean that they are wrong or "Ëœguesses'. The big bang theory is incomplete because there is a missing mass or force (dark energy?), which is required to explain the inflationary period of its evolution; it does not mean that the theory is wrong,.. we were lead to it by investigation, "¦no one pulled the idea out of their ass one day.

Scientific progress is dynamic, and dictated much by empirical observation, while religion is static and dogmatic, "¦dead. Now if supposedly God has made the world with humans able to investigate that world scientifically,.. then he had better have made it physically consistent, otherwise eventually we will discover the "Ëœseams of reality' where science meets "Ëœthe hand of God'.

 

[delboy]

CrashBomb du bis ein Stern

 

[CrashBomb]

The big bang theory is incomplete because there is a missing mass or force (dark energy?), which is required to explain the inflationary period of its evolution; it does not mean that the theory is wrong,..

Exactly right. "Dark matter" (the missing mass) and "dark energy" (the missing force) are themselves only theories. Cosmologists admit that even they themselves do not understand these concepts and the terms are merely a kind of place holder that says, "we know something is here because the math tells us it has to be, but we don't yet know what it is or how it works." The dark matter/energy question is literally the bleeding edge of cosmological science. These relatively new concepts represent the absolute limit of our current understanding; the "tip of the spear," so to speak. When working with the FLRW metrics and the Einsteinian field equations, basically adding up all the material in the universe, it becomes immediately clear that a HUGE chunk of the mass of the universe is not there...at least not anywhere we can see. And given that the relative universal density is almost a perfect constant (once again applying Newtonian universal gravity theories) it's a fair bet that all that extra matter isn't just hiding slightly out of reach of our telescopes, so therefore it must be something we can't yet detect.

From Henry Cavendish's experiments in the late 18th century, and applying Kepler's 3rd law to the motion of celestial bodies, we arrived at what became known as the "Gaussian gravitational constant," because Carl Gauss was the first to measure these forces in units that applied to astronomical distances instead of things like "pound feet" and "miles per hour." But when you try to extrapolate these mathematics out to a cosmological scale the equations begin to break down. This either means that Newtonian universal gravitation is wrong (highly unlikely) or that there's simply something out there we don't understand that causes the universe to have more mass than we can measure.

Think of it this way. You can approximate the size of an object by the gravitational force it exerts on another object of known size. This is known in molecular sciences as "gravitational coupling constant," and because of Newtonian universal gravitation this concept can be applied at more than just the molecular level, as the Cavendish experiment proved. But when you do so on immense scales the math just doesn't work. There is a very large amount of mass and energy needed to create that much gravitational force, and something like 98% of it...just...isn't there. So the mathematics tell cosmologists that SOMETHING must be there, they just don't yet understand what it is or how it works.

A fascinating little documentary that deals with just this problem and the theories currently being investigated to explain it is called Most Of Our Universe Is Missing, it's aired several times on Discovery:Science, and at least once on the History channel. If anyone is interested in deeper exploration of these concepts I'd highly recommend you look for it and check it out the next time it's on.