The Golden Compass

[ks-waterbug]

I would like to remind everyone as pointed out by both sides that just because something hasn't been scientifically proven, doesnt' make it impossible!
Quite the contrary, I believe there are a lot of things highly improvable, but nothing is impossible!
Likewise just because you can't see, feel, hear, or touch God in a physical sense of the word doesn't automatically denote his nonexistence...

Something to ponder using whatever method you choose.. (I prefer a religous one)
What brings a humanbeing to life after conception?
What happens when you die?
************************************************************

Man has been wrong about things thought well understood more times than there are grains of sand in the ocean.
After all IMOP, He was our creator, being that, would the creator allow the creation to become greater than he?
My friends we are but ants in a glass cage, given but one opportunity to live our life however we choose.
If science is your God then serve it, I prefer to serve my God...

 

[WWJD]

I think I'm getting off topic here...

Debunking God with science effects the same as debunking science with God: a waste of everyone's precious time. I USED to be all about science, but it only goes so far as to describe things inside the box that science CAN describe, within parameters and with terms SCIENCE can understand.

If it is not explainable scientifically, than it doesn't exist.

Once I learned to accept the truth that there ARE things out there that are beyond me, beyond science, and don't have to be explained to be enjoyed, THAT was when I was freed.

Science will spend so much time, effort, words, numbers, diagrams explaining, and then explaining the explanation, that it wastes it's life away before it ever gets to simply ENJOY a rainbow.

Electricity existed before we knew about it. Us NOT KNOWING about it, did not make it not exist.

These discussions, unfortunately, ususlly end up in miles of paragraphs, again, describing things always within the knowledge or our currently DEFINED understanding. Thus end up regurgitating that which we already know, theroies we have already made up, going no where. Pounds and pounds of words, theories, paragraphs, links, pictures, pros and cons etc etc etc etc until no one can possibly keep track of all of it anymore....
.... rendering it useless to a common person. It is entirely possible that acts like that, even unknownly, are direct actions of forces working toward the opposition of Godly knowledge. Unless you must remain within the restritive realm of "known science".

In either case, it has ALL been said before in previous threads. Do a search

 

[RedBusa]

ks-waterbug and WWJD, you are quite right. The concept of a God is safe from being disproved by science, as I tried to point out earlier in why the atheists are irrational if they state God does not exist. Immanuel Kant in his book "˜'a critique of pure reason', makes that point well. Kant was a scientist and made contributions to cosmology, yet realized that knowledge implies that reality must conform to preconditions of our minds, because we have a particular and limited "˜design', so that we cannot know noumenal reality.

Statements in the bible regarding physical facts can and will be disproved however.

 

[Big Wall]

Don't see it. Don't read the books. Never question anything, you'll get to heaven much faster that way.

If you read or touch or even stand in the same room as any of the His Dark Materials trilogy your god will transport you directly to the deepest circle of hell for the rest of eternity. Seriously, he has NO sense of humor about these kinds of things. He's like a cosmic, omnipotent, omniscient version of those TSA workers at the airport; say the wrong word at the wrong time and *BAM* you're in a cold dark cell before the handcuffs even warm up to body temperature.

All facetiousness aside, I have serious doubts that this movie, or the books from which it is derived, are for you. You'll go into it with preconceived notions looking to be offended and you will without a doubt find something to be offended by.

Well Said....

If someones religion is so damned fragile, that a movie or a book could shake the very foundation of their faith???  

I'd actually try a little harder, cause it's just a damn movie...


Folks why don't we get out the Wood and matches, and maybe start burning those heretics that DARE to think for themselves, and understand that fairy tales are not supposed to be taken literally.  

And so it begins...

Lets recap...

Christmas has nothing to do with Christ.  The Church is an Evil twisted organization designed by Satan to lead millions astray.  You want evil? You want dark trickery?  I give you the Bible, and what remains of it's tormented, edited, and re-written passages.  What better tool for the devil than to lead millions down the path of corruption with their own book.

-Judgmental
-Murderous
-Rapists
-Tormentors
-Witch Hunters
-Glory hounds
-Power Mongers

All because of a book written by god?  I don't think so...  Perfect tool of the devil, leading millions to do evil in the name of god...  


There we go... There's a good start to the season...  If you're new here, calm down, this is an annual thing almost.  Where's WWJD, or someone else with something intelligent to say?

Wait wait, I know this one.  Circular reasoning at it's best.  We know the book is written by god, because the book tells us this is so...  No where else in our lives would this sort of crap float.  But we are all so desperate for some meaning, some sense of grand design or purpose that we will cling to anything to alleviate the nagging fear that this is really all there is, and we are nothing more than animals doing our thing...

What else is there to say? This reminds me of when I went to see "The Last Temptation of Christ." The line for viewing went all the way around the building and for every 4 people in line there was someone there to protest the movie. The protesters we talked to said they hadn't even seen the movie, but were told what happened in it.

 

[Revlis]

I think I'm getting off topic here...

Debunking God with science effects the same as debunking science with God: a waste of everyone's precious time. I USED to be all about science, but it only goes so far as to describe things inside the box that science CAN describe, within parameters and with terms SCIENCE can understand.

If it is not explainable scientifically, than it doesn't exist.

Once I learned to accept the truth that there ARE things out there that are beyond me, beyond science, and don't have to be explained to be enjoyed, THAT was when I was freed.

Science will spend so much time, effort, words, numbers, diagrams explaining, and then explaining the explanation, that it wastes it's life away before it ever gets to simply ENJOY a rainbow.

Electricity existed before we knew about it. Us NOT KNOWING about it, did not make it not exist.

These discussions, unfortunately, ususlly end up in miles of paragraphs, again, describing things always within the knowledge or our currently DEFINED understanding. Thus end up regurgitating that which we already know, theroies we have already made up, going no where. Pounds and pounds of words, theories, paragraphs, links, pictures, pros and cons etc etc etc etc until no one can possibly keep track of all of it anymore....
.... rendering it useless to a common person. It is entirely possible that acts like that, even unknownly, are direct actions of forces working toward the opposition of Godly knowledge. Unless you must remain within the restritive realm of "known science".

In either case, it has ALL been said before in previous threads. Do a search

What's up JD? You have a valid point, this has been discussed before and it really CANNOT go anywhere. It's like arguing over which color is better. Accept that with colors folks don't murder, torture, revise/burn books, in order to MAKE the other side believe the way they do... Other than that its' exactly the same.


Besides, CrashBomb is carrying this pretty well and has some worthwhile arguments.

 

[Revlis]

by all the drama kings no suprise there

The Drama is like the Nutmeg in our Christmas Nog... Not required, but it ads that little something extra...

 

[CrashBomb]

Something to ponder using whatever method you choose.. (I prefer a religous one)
What brings a humanbeing to life after conception?
What happens when you die?
************************************************************

Technically, we are already alive before conception. Surely, you agree that a sperm and an egg are both "living" in the most basic sense of the concept. They are both haploid cells which carry genetic material. "Life" is simply a word that is used to differentiate organic material from inorganic compounds of mineral, and not biological, origins. Given the accepted definition of "alive," and without delving any deeper into the theories on entropy and life, negentropy, and various thermodynamic laws governing the movement and modification of energy, both the ovum and the sperm cell are alive before they become a diploid zygote. Scientifically, this is a very simple and irrefutable answer to your first question. I think the larger philosophical question you'd probably rather ask is, "At what point in the division process does a human embryo become a "human being?"

As to what happens when you die...
"If you're pure of heart you'll go to a beautiful place called Heaven.
Hahahahaha, nah...I'm yankin' ya, you just rot in the ground."
Peter Grifinisims aside, no one knows. Some of us answer that question with religion. Others, as we do in the dark matter/energy questions we've already talked about, suspend final judgment until the evidence presents itself. We're willing to accept the possibility that "something" happens, we just don't know what; and all current religious theories on the subject are logically unfalsifiable and irrefutable by design.

 

[Revlis]

I can watch any ANTI-GOD movie and still be who I am . I am solid in my faith , and don't care what anyone else thinks . That will be thier problem someday when they are face to face with the Lord .




By the way , Hold a gun to the head of an atheist and see who he pleds for !

So it's back to the Inquisition then huh? Why Not? Worked great first time around.

Evil is evil, bad is bad, and religions are preventing the species from moving forward will be the ruin of us all.

 

[Smugly]

If there is a GOD, I bet ya he rides a Busa

 

[CrashBomb]

Debunking God with science effects the same as debunking science with God: a waste of everyone's precious time. I USED to be all about science, but it only goes so far as to describe things inside the box that science CAN describe, within parameters and with terms SCIENCE can understand.

If it is not explainable scientifically, than it doesn't exist.

This is circular logic. Anyway, no one is trying to "debunk God with science," at least no one here.

I just explained that scientific theory does NOT "debunk" things when it doesn't know of them or understand how they work. The scientific method is designed to accommodate new discoveries. Going back again to the dark matter debate, science doesn't just automatically refute all previous theories just because they have come up against something they don't currently understand. We give it a name, like a place holder, and try to understand it within the frame of reference we currently use. If findings are made that cause that framework to collapse we go back to examining the framework itself; and if it's found to be flawed we abandon it. Science is a constantly moving and growing process that, taken out of context, does seem to "take all the wonder" out of life, but seen from a skeptical and informed point of view it's a majestic and wonderful process that we have invented.

And some of us can be just as awestruck by the ability of a molecule of hydrogen dioxide suspended in a colloidal atmospheric mixture to refract a zero mass elementary photon particle and produce visible color spectra.

Science is concerned with the WHY and HOW of rainbows. Often the WHY and HOW can be just as beautiful and impressive as the WHAT.

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
-Isaac Newton

 

[CrashBomb]

So it's back to the Inquisition then huh? Why Not? Worked great first time around.

Evil is evil, bad is bad, and religions are preventing the species from moving forward will be the ruin of us all.

"We've flattened their fingers, we've branded their buns. Nothing is working...SEND IN THE NUNS!"


Put it in the car...put it in the car...put it in the car...put it in the car.

 

[WWJD]

It IS circular. That's why I pointed it out.

I dunno man, when science explains away something like LOVE, I personally feel half of that magic is gone

"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein

I think he was some important science guy

what was this topic again? Oh yeah! That movie. With our rapidly declining values of... well, pretty much everything, there will be more interest in cashing in by creating controversial entertainment. They have yet to make a movie about the real God turning out to be this huge space alien, which I think would make some fun fiction! Or maybe a fictional movie about the founder of the Satanism [which has NOTHING to do with "Satan" according to one reader] turning from God as a result of a broken, abusive home environment... oh wait, I guess that's not fictional enough

Like I said, MOST movies are anti-religious by default if ya think about it. This one simply wants to cash in as being the opposite to Narnia

I respect KS's post and interest in not supporting negating material. I probably won't see it mostly because what I've seen so far just doesn't interest me.

 

[WWJD]

Accept that with colors folks don't murder, torture, revise/burn books, in order to MAKE the other side believe the way they do... Other than that its' exactly the same.

Hey revster! Always good to have ya in this.

Still waiting for you to point out those churches that practice all that murder and such

 

[CrashBomb]

Like I said, MOST movies are anti-religious by default if ya think about it. This one simply wants to cash in as being the opposite to Narnia

I respect KS's post and interest in not supporting negating material. I probably won't see it mostly because what I've seen so far just doesn't interest me.

I'd argue your point that "most movies are anti-religious by default," but I believe I understand what you're saying from your particular point of view.

I also agree that, as I said earlier, you shouldn't see the film. Your preconceptions and misconceptions will taint your opinions of the story before you ever set foot in the theater. Christians have historically had trouble separating the religious message from the fictional story since the first book in the His Dark Materials was published in 1995, and there's no reason to think the film slated to come to theaters soon will be any different.

I respect the original sentiment as well. Do not confuse my arguments and the ensuing debate with a lack of respect. Intelligent discourse on any particular subject is the antithetical opposite to a lack of respect for another viewpoint.
"You have introduced yourself. I have introduced myself. This is a good conversation."
-Katsumoto (Ken Watanabe), The Last Samurai

And if not supporting or boycotting anything makes you feel better about your place in the world, then, by all means, do not hesitate to do so.

 

[Commuta_Busa]

it's just a movie... sheeesh

 

[Revlis]

Accept that with colors folks don't murder, torture, revise/burn books, in order to MAKE the other side believe the way they do... Other than that its' exactly the same.

Hey revster! Always good to have ya in this.

Still waiting for you to point out those churches that practice all that murder and such

Wait no longer...

Church of God

Church of Christ

Catholic Church Million and millions

Islamic extremists...

On and On...

Millions of tortured, raped, murdered, and butchered. All because of a damn human need to believe in something bigger, being used to manipulate the minds of millions... All of them wanting to be part of the "winning team" hedging their bets against logic that there is something other than cold Black nothingness waiting on the other side of life...

How's that Bro?

 

[VaBusa]

While I have yet to see the film, here's one review, the chaos and controversy set aside...it's a movie people, not unlike most movies...

More to the point of what this thread was started for, it is beyond irritating to know that any 'special interest' group of any kind can start so much controversy having never really seen the film. Again, they're basing it solely on their judgments about the author, nothing more, nothing less, as if someone that's a self-proclaimed atheist couldn't possibly add to any form of art, please

From what I've heard of the FILM, it's sci-fi at it's best, pure entertainment and an escape from the daily grind. Pass the popcorn, I'm going to see the film

From the Fox News site...

"The Golden Compass" is here. After being treated to tantalizing bits and pieces, I've seen the whole movie, a sumptuous two-hour adventure that has as much to do with being anti-Christian or Catholic as "Flipper." So much for that.

No, "The Golden Compass" is not "The Lord of the Rings." It can't be. For one, it has a female protagonist, Lyra, 11, played by Dakota Blue Richards, who nevertheless is serious enough to carry the day when she has to and then get out of the way for big explosions and fight scenes when the boys and men arrive.

But still: The first part of a trilogy based on Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials" series is a visual knockout, extremely captivating and a sci-fi feast for everyone 12 and up.

"The Golden Compass" also gives Nicole Kidman and Daniel Craig, previously trapped in the awful "The Invasion" this year, a chance to redeem themselves nicely. It turns out that they make a good onscreen couple after all, even though they're really not onscreen together in "Compass."

Kidman, in particular, is back to business, slithering around, having a grand time as Mrs. Coulter, the nominal villain in little Lyra's bizarre world where everyone has a "daemon" or talking animal by their side that represents their personality.

Lyra's daemon is a wildcat that can become a lion, while Kidman's is a sleek, dangerous monkey, and Craig's is a snow leopard. Yes, the animals all talk and are wise and wily and a lot of fun as they morph from one to another.

Aside from the people and the smaller talking animals, the other main characters in "The Golden Compass" are a large, armored polar bear, Sam Elliott as a cowboy and Simon McBurney as a scheming clergyman who initiates the film by trying to kill Craig's Lord Asriel, who Lyra thinks is her uncle.

Lyra thwarts the clergyman's assassination attempt, thereby bringing his wrath. (I think this is where the anti-Christian stuff comes from.) It's what sets all the characters on their path.

"The Golden Compass" is a fable, and it can only be viewed as such. Like "The Lord of the Rings," it's about an object everyone wants "â€￾ in this case, the compass "â€￾ which has mystical powers and promise of salvation. (The compass actually is a lot more interesting than the ring.)

And while all the performances are spot on, I think the Oscars and other awards entities are going to be more interested in the technical stuff. Visual effects and production design are haunting and magnificent.

Like "The Chronicles of Narnia," "Compass" is meant to entertain and disturb children of all ages. Director Chris Weitz has done just that, although this film is hardly lighthearted. It gets very dark and a little violent, especially during a gladiator-like showdown between the polar bears.

More importantly, "The Golden Compass" is a large-scale thoughtful fantasy, something to get lost in during a holiday film season when there's a lot more realistic doom and gloom to contemplate.

 

[CrashBomb]

it's just a movie... sheeesh

This is an intelligent and intellectual debate, encompassing everything from cosmological theory, philosophy, human psychology, to theological tradition. Everyone is civil, articulate, and able to express their particular viewpoint. Why must you demean it simply because it doesn't interest you?

The negative connotations that the word "drama" carries in this day and age are noted but not appreciated. Drama is simply a mode of representational performance. It is not "gossip" or "turmoil," neither is it a ranting diatribe full of rhetoric and insult. Drama seeks to create conflict in order to better examine either side of the argument. In the classical Greek sense, yes...we're being very dramatic. This is not a bad thing. In the "ohhhh...the drama!" sense, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

 

[CrashBomb]

Wait no longer...

Church of God

Church of Christ

Catholic Church Million and millions

Islamic extremists...

On and On...

Millions of tortured, raped, murdered, and butchered. All because of a damn human need to believe in something bigger, being used to manipulate the minds of millions... All of them wanting to be part of the "winning team" hedging their bets against logic that there is something other than cold Black nothingness waiting on the other side of life...

How's that Bro?

You forgot the Mormons/Latter Day Saints.

Read Jon Krakauer's Under The Banner Of Heaven if the Mormon traditions hold any interest for you.

"I went down there, told them to drink a bit of wine, hang out, be groovy. Now they've all split into different groups. The Quakers, the Bakers, the Candlestick-makers. The free Presbyterians, the locked up Presbyterians...
Oh and the Mormons ARE from Mars, dad, we've had it confirmed."
-Eddie Izzard, imagining what Jesus would say to God on his return to heaven.

 

[Revlis]

Mormans? Oh now you've gone TOO far... What's next? You going to tell me that Xenu isn't the beginning and my thetans don't need to be cleansed??? Sheesh! No regard for anyone.


I love the Mormons though. Anything written on golden tablets only legible to one dude in the woods with a head full of mushrooms MUST be gospel... Still though, them Clearwater Toolsheds, they're the fun ones... Makes fundamentalist Christians and the snake handlers sound logical.