The Gospel according to Oprah
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BigDawg_03Busa
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(Black Bird Killer @ Mar. 30 2007,08:01)BBK knew what your intentions were
Wag, I just wanted to chime in on this area as I don't want to get too involved in these type discussions. Usually it's those people who tend to sin over and over again and who know that they are not living as they should question GOD's love, kindness, justness, and fairness. Most of all, they tend to question HIS forgiveness. Some people who truly want to believe think that GOD's kindness and above all, forgiveness, will somehow justify the mistakes they've made, and continue to help them feel secure in the fact that they will still ultimately go to heaven.
(VaBusa @ Mar. 27 2007,07:34)Apparently she does upset a lot of people...for what? For asking questions? Valid questions for those that seek answers, yet what she gets in return for those questions are ridicule and a short piece of her show posted on some Christian site so all of the others can be in "shock and awe" over someone questioning what so many question anyway
It's a joke that THIS is the type of stuff that Christians get up in arms over...a TV show...not the serial killers or child molesters, not those "of the cloth" that rape and molest the innocent, not the wife-beaters or Mom's that can't hack life and kill their kids, not the rampant porn on the web or hate spewed by groups that think their kind rise above all others, not the lyrics your kids listen to every day or the things they see on MTV, not your kids' soccer coaches showing the art of non-sportsmanlike conduct on the field while they scream because they want to WIN! WIN! WIN! Bet most don't give much thought to the fact that so many are hated because of the clothes they wear or the color of their hair, the color of their skin or the amount of money Mom and Dad don't have, and do you care that most of America is being propped up by pills to cure everything from restless legs to anxiety, yet we won't cure cancer? Nope, all of that pales in comparison to someone asking questions about faith and belief, oh and voicing an opinion. Oh yes, Oprah should be publicly flogged for that one, after all, this is America where once again the idea of free speech doesn't really exist if it crossed the threshhold of what the majority believes should be so...
I sit here and chuckle more and more everyday over these "discussions"...it's all shiny and bright when the gang gets in these threads and high-fives your fellowship and that you know "the way", but let one person raise a damn question and it's all hell and damnation LOL Oh yeah, good times...
Now, go ride...some of you need it...
P.S. Oprah just called me and she has indeed submitted all the necessary paperwork for her world domination plans...
And I still love you all...I'm going to take my pills now LOL
LOL..(Darrgo @ Mar. 30 2007,14:32)(VaBusa @ Mar. 27 2007,07:34)Apparently she does upset a lot of people...for what? For asking questions? Valid questions for those that seek answers, yet what she gets in return for those questions are ridicule and a short piece of her show posted on some Christian site so all of the others can be in "shock and awe" over someone questioning what so many question anyway
It's a joke that THIS is the type of stuff that Christians get up in arms over...a TV show...not the serial killers or child molesters, not those "of the cloth" that rape and molest the innocent, not the wife-beaters or Mom's that can't hack life and kill their kids, not the rampant porn on the web or hate spewed by groups that think their kind rise above all others, not the lyrics your kids listen to every day or the things they see on MTV, not your kids' soccer coaches showing the art of non-sportsmanlike conduct on the field while they scream because they want to WIN! WIN! WIN! Bet most don't give much thought to the fact that so many are hated because of the clothes they wear or the color of their hair, the color of their skin or the amount of money Mom and Dad don't have, and do you care that most of America is being propped up by pills to cure everything from restless legs to anxiety, yet we won't cure cancer? Nope, all of that pales in comparison to someone asking questions about faith and belief, oh and voicing an opinion. Oh yes, Oprah should be publicly flogged for that one, after all, this is America where once again the idea of free speech doesn't really exist if it crossed the threshhold of what the majority believes should be so...
I sit here and chuckle more and more everyday over these "discussions"...it's all shiny and bright when the gang gets in these threads and high-fives your fellowship and that you know "the way", but let one person raise a damn question and it's all hell and damnation LOL Oh yeah, good times...
Now, go ride...some of you need it...
P.S. Oprah just called me and she has indeed submitted all the necessary paperwork for her world domination plans...
And I still love you all...I'm going to take my pills now LOLWell Said you couldnt be more right
I have come to a conclusion being right is nothing more than a perspective..
everyone is right, and everyone is wrong.
You aren't classifying anything scientifically! You are giving all credit to god. God gave us everything you say. Question: If "god" just invented the molecules that make up the universe, the molecules that make up everything from space to Lava. If "god" gave these molecules the ability to attach themselves to other molecules. These molecules arrange themselves in such away that they are able to reproduce themselves(the basis for life), would you say that "god" created this? If god just created the molecules and gave them the ability to bind together in anyway that they wanted, did god create everything that gets created? Would god judge the molecules if they didn't create what "god" had wanted? How can you question the westernized version of god? Easy!(WWJD @ Mar. 29 2007,20:23) how can you QUESTION a "GOD"? ? ? okay there is all this stuff about "WORSHIP ME WORSHIP ME" etc and we are like, "Shya.... right big d00d... you have an EGO!" So? WE are using our human imperfections to catagorize GOD? How in the heck... HOW is THAT possible? "Boy he sure is selfish..." What? He gave us EVERYTHING [that's if you believe he exists at all]
How HUMAN and self important of us to QUESTION the motives of someone or something so far beyond our possible comprehensions.
Question: as a father, how do you feel when your young ones do any of the following:
1. they hug you and tell you they love you, and tell you you're the BEST daddy in the world
2. they do something really cool that makes you proud YOU raised them that way
3. they hang around you watching you work on something and you KNOW they are in awe of you and admiring all your skills
Feel good at all? My, my what an EGO you have
*If you don't believe it's possible that there is more in the universe that what you can immediately classify scientifically, then the previous words were pointless for you. Don't read them
As for your three questions: It is not egotistical to feel good about what you have taught your kids. It is not egotistical to have them feel in awe of you. But it would be if YOU told them they must. It is certainly not egotistical to have your children tell you they love you! But it would be if you told them all they have is because of you and only you and you SHOULD be thanked all the time........................................... In Lambs opinion their thanks wouldn't mean as much either!
My point about the whole EGO thing is that GOD seems to show alot of human behavior. Remember, humans wrote the bible and all the other writings. In this, they quote god and his son. So humans can't be left out the discussion. Self-esteem seems to be a major flaw in westernized god. He must receive credit for invented the heavens. He must receive credit for the earth and all things on it. If he receives credit after telling everyone he must, does it mean as much? To Lamb it's not the concept of god, it's the human factor that cannot be discounted. CANNOT BE DISCOUNTED.
This site rocks!
before I spew forth my reply here, I must first make this statement:
CHRISTIANS don't know all the answers. NON Christians don't know all the answers. NOBODY knows all the answers. People have questions. It's neat-o when people ask Christians things, like they know exactly all the answers, but that simply isn't true. From my seat, MOST of the questioning is distraction from the TRUTH of God an how it's supposed to work - but ya get buried in more questions when the answer is exactly the opposite of the burden of questionings: Faith
So, if you wanna ask ME why who said what in the Bible and what did it mean, I'm the wrong guy. I didn't grow up LEARNING the Bible, I grew up learning FROM the Bible and watching humans mess up their lives, which makes Biblical philosophy that much more relevant.
Now on with the ranting.
"If you don't believe it's possible that there is more in the universe that what you can immediately classify scientifically" That says it as plane as can be said.... if you don't believe there is more than what you can prove scientifically, there is no point discussing God. I believe in things I can not scientifically explain: Love, God, Gravity, my taste for Jones Cream Soda..... Science HAS to catagorize everything or the entire foundation of science collapses on itself. No, I didn't classify, nor will I, any of this scientifically, because it has no basis here. I think you missed my point of that disclaimer.
I would say, yes, God created everything and the way it works together. I don't need to question it personally. You see, I don't have to have all the answers. Just enough to make life make sense for me and the people around me I love and hopefully inspire. I don't care what happened to the dinosaurs, I don't care if UFOs exist, I don't even care if this line in the Bible means precisely this or that - THAT is not the point of God, Jesus, the Bible and all that. The point is missed if you spend your life searching for ALL THE ANSWERS in it... The searching for all the answers, the pursuit of scientific explanation and proof is EXACTLY the opposite of living a life fulfilled with love, God's love, and understanding of the whole bleedin universe and how we were made to enjoy it - not QUESTION it and have to find the answers to everything.
As a father, wouldn't it be your right to tell your children all they are and have is because of you? It IS, afterall, the honest truth. At ANY stage in life is it "Right" for a child to question their father? "Why should I LOVE you, dad? Qualify it on a spreadsheet, so that I may love you unconditionaly - provided there is a numerical value to the reasons why" What the.... ? That makes no sense! The child has no rights to question the father. The father IS "all that" and more, whether the child chooses to believe it or not. And their lack of belief does not make it not true either. The father makes the rules, the father decides how it all will work in his household. We COULD claim that father is an egotistical pig headed foo.... but who are we to JUDGE another? We are not.
Yet, we QUESTION God [if you beleive he/she/it exists] like a 5 year old saying, "Dad, I don't have to love you, until you perform some miracle that benefits or impresses or profits ME. THEN I will FEEL like giving you my love"
the EXACT OPPOSITE of God's version of love. IF there's a God, IF you are still reading all this, then God INVENTED love, and knows how it works best: When it is given away to another or given to God - but our bent human perspective pounds it home that we should feel best when we are LOVED! Again, the world is the exact opposite of how it works best. Come on, think about the last time you were in love, or felt moved by your love for another. I put money on it that you were too giddy LOVING that other person, living in that uforic state, to even notice them lovign you back. And THEY were in that GIVING LOVE state too. It's a WIN WIN situation - the way God designed it.
God SHOULD show "human behavior" he INVENTED ALL those abilities in us. We are extensions of him.
Try this anology. Some guy came up with the computer game THE SIMS. It's a huge hit and I am sure it took dozens of programmers and designers to make it all happen, much to our pleasure and amusement. Cool. Now - The ONLY THINGS that CAN go on inside that game, is EXACTLY what was programmed into it - every little nuance, every color, every sound, every fake emotion and interation of those little virtual people is ALL preprogrammed. NOTHING will happen outside of what is already programmed into that game. With the exception of your computer crashing or glitching... which means you are not really PLAYING the game at that point anyway. The ONLY things the programmers COULD put into that game, are things they already understand or recognize... nothing more. The players in the game EMULATE the reality that the programers already exist in, their traits, their ideas, their ambitions, EVERY LITTLE THING in the game is a part of the programmers themselves. They have behavior we would call human, based on our known traits. With that perspective, God [the progammer] would have all the traits WE have, and I would put money on it, a whole boat load more than we could ever know. Is being egotistical a "flaw"? According to human beings self defining their own right and wrong, yes it is. But I say, maybe it's not in a God. How would I ever know? I'm no God so how could I conceive if it is or not? I don't know... I don't question it.
MAN, I talk alot! And, still, I don't know everything.
As far as "Westernized", my limited historical knowledge tells me the Bible originated over in another country - a NON westernized area - and the versions we read are simply translations into our language and updated slightly for understanding. So, I guess I can't say the Bible is so westernized.
Lamb, I wasn't breakin on YOU at all in my previous post.... I reread it and thought about changing the "YOU"s into "ONE"s, like "....one would think..." so it didn't seem like I was rattling on You. But, alas, I left it and it probably sounded like that. but it wasn't meant to seem that way
CHRISTIANS don't know all the answers. NON Christians don't know all the answers. NOBODY knows all the answers. People have questions. It's neat-o when people ask Christians things, like they know exactly all the answers, but that simply isn't true. From my seat, MOST of the questioning is distraction from the TRUTH of God an how it's supposed to work - but ya get buried in more questions when the answer is exactly the opposite of the burden of questionings: Faith
So, if you wanna ask ME why who said what in the Bible and what did it mean, I'm the wrong guy. I didn't grow up LEARNING the Bible, I grew up learning FROM the Bible and watching humans mess up their lives, which makes Biblical philosophy that much more relevant.
Now on with the ranting.
"If you don't believe it's possible that there is more in the universe that what you can immediately classify scientifically" That says it as plane as can be said.... if you don't believe there is more than what you can prove scientifically, there is no point discussing God. I believe in things I can not scientifically explain: Love, God, Gravity, my taste for Jones Cream Soda..... Science HAS to catagorize everything or the entire foundation of science collapses on itself. No, I didn't classify, nor will I, any of this scientifically, because it has no basis here. I think you missed my point of that disclaimer.
I would say, yes, God created everything and the way it works together. I don't need to question it personally. You see, I don't have to have all the answers. Just enough to make life make sense for me and the people around me I love and hopefully inspire. I don't care what happened to the dinosaurs, I don't care if UFOs exist, I don't even care if this line in the Bible means precisely this or that - THAT is not the point of God, Jesus, the Bible and all that. The point is missed if you spend your life searching for ALL THE ANSWERS in it... The searching for all the answers, the pursuit of scientific explanation and proof is EXACTLY the opposite of living a life fulfilled with love, God's love, and understanding of the whole bleedin universe and how we were made to enjoy it - not QUESTION it and have to find the answers to everything.
As a father, wouldn't it be your right to tell your children all they are and have is because of you? It IS, afterall, the honest truth. At ANY stage in life is it "Right" for a child to question their father? "Why should I LOVE you, dad? Qualify it on a spreadsheet, so that I may love you unconditionaly - provided there is a numerical value to the reasons why" What the.... ? That makes no sense! The child has no rights to question the father. The father IS "all that" and more, whether the child chooses to believe it or not. And their lack of belief does not make it not true either. The father makes the rules, the father decides how it all will work in his household. We COULD claim that father is an egotistical pig headed foo.... but who are we to JUDGE another? We are not.
Yet, we QUESTION God [if you beleive he/she/it exists] like a 5 year old saying, "Dad, I don't have to love you, until you perform some miracle that benefits or impresses or profits ME. THEN I will FEEL like giving you my love"
the EXACT OPPOSITE of God's version of love. IF there's a God, IF you are still reading all this, then God INVENTED love, and knows how it works best: When it is given away to another or given to God - but our bent human perspective pounds it home that we should feel best when we are LOVED! Again, the world is the exact opposite of how it works best. Come on, think about the last time you were in love, or felt moved by your love for another. I put money on it that you were too giddy LOVING that other person, living in that uforic state, to even notice them lovign you back. And THEY were in that GIVING LOVE state too. It's a WIN WIN situation - the way God designed it.
God SHOULD show "human behavior" he INVENTED ALL those abilities in us. We are extensions of him.
Try this anology. Some guy came up with the computer game THE SIMS. It's a huge hit and I am sure it took dozens of programmers and designers to make it all happen, much to our pleasure and amusement. Cool. Now - The ONLY THINGS that CAN go on inside that game, is EXACTLY what was programmed into it - every little nuance, every color, every sound, every fake emotion and interation of those little virtual people is ALL preprogrammed. NOTHING will happen outside of what is already programmed into that game. With the exception of your computer crashing or glitching... which means you are not really PLAYING the game at that point anyway. The ONLY things the programmers COULD put into that game, are things they already understand or recognize... nothing more. The players in the game EMULATE the reality that the programers already exist in, their traits, their ideas, their ambitions, EVERY LITTLE THING in the game is a part of the programmers themselves. They have behavior we would call human, based on our known traits. With that perspective, God [the progammer] would have all the traits WE have, and I would put money on it, a whole boat load more than we could ever know. Is being egotistical a "flaw"? According to human beings self defining their own right and wrong, yes it is. But I say, maybe it's not in a God. How would I ever know? I'm no God so how could I conceive if it is or not? I don't know... I don't question it.
MAN, I talk alot! And, still, I don't know everything.
As far as "Westernized", my limited historical knowledge tells me the Bible originated over in another country - a NON westernized area - and the versions we read are simply translations into our language and updated slightly for understanding. So, I guess I can't say the Bible is so westernized.
Lamb, I wasn't breakin on YOU at all in my previous post.... I reread it and thought about changing the "YOU"s into "ONE"s, like "....one would think..." so it didn't seem like I was rattling on You. But, alas, I left it and it probably sounded like that. but it wasn't meant to seem that way
Lamb didn't read it as a personal assault! Just trying to keep a cool discussion alive! One thought more is there are many times that you refer to "don't know and don't care" in your last post WWJD. Don't sell yourself short. You do know and you do care! The reasons we read the bible is to learn from the past. There is alot to be learned in finding out what happened to the dinosaurs and if single celled organisms can live in the vacuum of space etc...(WWJD @ Mar. 30 2007,20:26) before I spew forth my reply here, I must first make this statement:
CHRISTIANS don't know all the answers. NON Christians don't know all the answers. NOBODY knows all the answers. People have questions. It's neat-o when people ask Christians things, like they know exactly all the answers, but that simply isn't true. From my seat, MOST of the questioning is distraction from the TRUTH of God an how it's supposed to work - but ya get buried in more questions when the answer is exactly the opposite of the burden of questionings: Faith
So, if you wanna ask ME why who said what in the Bible and what did it mean, I'm the wrong guy. I didn't grow up LEARNING the Bible, I grew up learning FROM the Bible and watching humans mess up their lives, which makes Biblical philosophy that much more relevant.
Now on with the ranting.
"If you don't believe it's possible that there is more in the universe that what you can immediately classify scientifically" That says it as plane as can be said.... if you don't believe there is more than what you can prove scientifically, there is no point discussing God. I believe in things I can not scientifically explain: Love, God, Gravity, my taste for Jones Cream Soda..... Science HAS to catagorize everything or the entire foundation of science collapses on itself. No, I didn't classify, nor will I, any of this scientifically, because it has no basis here. I think you missed my point of that disclaimer.
I would say, yes, God created everything and the way it works together. I don't need to question it personally. You see, I don't have to have all the answers. Just enough to make life make sense for me and the people around me I love and hopefully inspire. I don't care what happened to the dinosaurs, I don't care if UFOs exist, I don't even care if this line in the Bible means precisely this or that - THAT is not the point of God, Jesus, the Bible and all that. The point is missed if you spend your life searching for ALL THE ANSWERS in it... The searching for all the answers, the pursuit of scientific explanation and proof is EXACTLY the opposite of living a life fulfilled with love, God's love, and understanding of the whole bleedin universe and how we were made to enjoy it - not QUESTION it and have to find the answers to everything.
As a father, wouldn't it be your right to tell your children all they are and have is because of you? It IS, afterall, the honest truth. At ANY stage in life is it "Right" for a child to question their father? "Why should I LOVE you, dad? Qualify it on a spreadsheet, so that I may love you unconditionaly - provided there is a numerical value to the reasons why" What the.... ? That makes no sense! The child has no rights to question the father. The father IS "all that" and more, whether the child chooses to believe it or not. And their lack of belief does not make it not true either. The father makes the rules, the father decides how it all will work in his household. We COULD claim that father is an egotistical pig headed foo.... but who are we to JUDGE another? We are not.
Yet, we QUESTION God [if you beleive he/she/it exists] like a 5 year old saying, "Dad, I don't have to love you, until you perform some miracle that benefits or impresses or profits ME. THEN I will FEEL like giving you my love"
the EXACT OPPOSITE of God's version of love. IF there's a God, IF you are still reading all this, then God INVENTED love, and knows how it works best: When it is given away to another or given to God - but our bent human perspective pounds it home that we should feel best when we are LOVED! Again, the world is the exact opposite of how it works best. Come on, think about the last time you were in love, or felt moved by your love for another. I put money on it that you were too giddy LOVING that other person, living in that uforic state, to even notice them lovign you back. And THEY were in that GIVING LOVE state too. It's a WIN WIN situation - the way God designed it.
God SHOULD show "human behavior" he INVENTED ALL those abilities in us. We are extensions of him.
Try this anology. Some guy came up with the computer game THE SIMS. It's a huge hit and I am sure it took dozens of programmers and designers to make it all happen, much to our pleasure and amusement. Cool. Now - The ONLY THINGS that CAN go on inside that game, is EXACTLY what was programmed into it - every little nuance, every color, every sound, every fake emotion and interation of those little virtual people is ALL preprogrammed. NOTHING will happen outside of what is already programmed into that game. With the exception of your computer crashing or glitching... which means you are not really PLAYING the game at that point anyway. The ONLY things the programmers COULD put into that game, are things they already understand or recognize... nothing more. The players in the game EMULATE the reality that the programers already exist in, their traits, their ideas, their ambitions, EVERY LITTLE THING in the game is a part of the programmers themselves. They have behavior we would call human, based on our known traits. With that perspective, God [the progammer] would have all the traits WE have, and I would put money on it, a whole boat load more than we could ever know. Is being egotistical a "flaw"? According to human beings self defining their own right and wrong, yes it is. But I say, maybe it's not in a God. How would I ever know? I'm no God so how could I conceive if it is or not? I don't know... I don't question it.
MAN, I talk alot! And, still, I don't know everything.
As far as "Westernized", my limited historical knowledge tells me the Bible originated over in another country - a NON westernized area - and the versions we read are simply translations into our language and updated slightly for understanding. So, I guess I can't say the Bible is so westernized.
Lamb, I wasn't breakin on YOU at all in my previous post.... I reread it and thought about changing the "YOU"s into "ONE"s, like "....one would think..." so it didn't seem like I was rattling on You. But, alas, I left it and it probably sounded like that. but it wasn't meant to seem that way
Don't sell science short because the search for god just may be found in that arena. To discount that is naive. Science and god might not be mutually exclusive. Why do christians get so upset when evolution is taught? To Lamb this was always more proof that a god does exist than creationism. It answers alot more questions than the story of Adam and Eve.
Lamb is not singling you out, just keeping the discussion alive. Mom always pleaded. Don't discuss religion or politics. Don't discuss religion or politics. Why? Lamb always used to ask. You will just make people uncomfortable and they won't like you, she says. They won't trust you and they won't hear you anyway. Some of my best discussions are with mother Lamb, this post is very similar to how those go down.
Thank you Michelle. Your words have perfectly justified why I really don't comment on these type threads. With all that's wrong with the world today, we get caught up with insignificant bullcrap. I just simply believe that in the end we will all eventually have to answer for our deeds here on earth. Bless you all...(VaBusa @ Mar. 27 2007,12:34)Apparently she does upset a lot of people...for what? For asking questions? Valid questions for those that seek answers, yet what she gets in return for those questions are ridicule and a short piece of her show posted on some Christian site so all of the others can be in "shock and awe" over someone questioning what so many question anyway
It's a joke that THIS is the type of stuff that Christians get up in arms over...a TV show...not the serial killers or child molesters, not those "of the cloth" that rape and molest the innocent, not the wife-beaters or Mom's that can't hack life and kill their kids, not the rampant porn on the web or hate spewed by groups that think their kind rise above all others, not the lyrics your kids listen to every day or the things they see on MTV, not your kids' soccer coaches showing the art of non-sportsmanlike conduct on the field while they scream because they want to WIN! WIN! WIN! Bet most don't give much thought to the fact that so many are hated because of the clothes they wear or the color of their hair, the color of their skin or the amount of money Mom and Dad don't have, and do you care that most of America is being propped up by pills to cure everything from restless legs to anxiety, yet we won't cure cancer? Nope, all of that pales in comparison to someone asking questions about faith and belief, oh and voicing an opinion. Oh yes, Oprah should be publicly flogged for that one, after all, this is America where once again the idea of free speech doesn't really exist if it crossed the threshhold of what the majority believes should be so...
I sit here and chuckle more and more everyday over these "discussions"...it's all shiny and bright when the gang gets in these threads and high-fives your fellowship and that you know "the way", but let one person raise a damn question and it's all hell and damnation LOL Oh yeah, good times...
Now, go ride...some of you need it...
P.S. Oprah just called me and she has indeed submitted all the necessary paperwork for her world domination plans...
And I still love you all...I'm going to take my pills now LOL
Apparently I'm missing the point behind this thread...
It seems we have folks talking about God, about god(s), about higher powers, about 'spirituality', about everything under the sun -- even referring to themselves in the third person.
If I may suggest, we're not all speaking the same language which makes meaningful communication quite difficult.
Eyes do not necessarily equate to seeing, ears do not necessarily equate to hearing, belief does not necessarily equate to believing...
It seems we have folks talking about God, about god(s), about higher powers, about 'spirituality', about everything under the sun -- even referring to themselves in the third person.
If I may suggest, we're not all speaking the same language which makes meaningful communication quite difficult.
Eyes do not necessarily equate to seeing, ears do not necessarily equate to hearing, belief does not necessarily equate to believing...
Uhhh speaking in third person..
you MUST be referring to Lamb Chops..
Lamb started doing this a few years ago. usually it is a sign of a psychotic break, but he seems to be functioning quite well so I just ignore it
This entire topic is one that troubles me as i personally am in a state of un-resolve with the bible...background wise?...i was raised northern baptist (till 12) and grew up southern methodist/lutheran....i also was a U.S. Marine and i also experienced a serious problem with drugs and alcohol in my younger years...which led me to a 15 year stint of being clean and sober...during which time i actually sponsored others through the 12 step programs of A.A. and the formative years of N.A.
And during the course of that time studying and practicing the 12 step programs i also attended "Sponsorship Workshops" where the focus groups primary challenge was teaching others how to deal with and accept the 3rd of the 12 steps which states...
"To turn my life and will over to the care of God as I understand Him"
with the challenge being...many of those recovering alcoholics and drug addicts who have been raised amidst hardline bible thumpers with a hellfire and brimstone theme have a real rough time accepting and putting into practice this critical step at all as they feel that no matter how far they turn thier lives around or how much atonement they make that they've done so much bad in their jaded pasts that they will never actually be forgiven...and they stumble with that 3rd step...often times slipping right back into their old ways of drinking and drugging.
As i understand it?..in it's most basic essence?...the bible (which many refer to as the word of God) is a collection of books which was then condensed by King James. With some denominations/beliefs believing only the old testament and even the most casual efforts at historical research can clearly depict many instances where the bible was used, abused and re-written by Kings and Rulers to serve their own wishes at the time.
One of these times that stands out in my mind was when the morality of slavery in this country was questioned and our own U.S. government called upon the church to verify and quantify any mans right to own another man...and the church did so by stating that because the slaves do not know God that this is grounds to rank them as nothing more than unholy savages...and they used this proclaimation for decades to serve themselves and their own evil doings against both slaves and the american indian...thereby justifying the right to own slaves annnnd?...continue on with the massive genicide of the american indian...taking both their land and their lives..as sanctioned and ordained by the church.
The Inquistions...Witch Burnings....Religious Wars and Crusades....I speak NOT against God...never...I love God....but I deeply and regretfully question man's guarding of the lords word...my God is a smart God...he wouldn't need a whole book of condensed chapters and tales told by others to get his mesage across clearly and concisely...he need just what he gave...hence the brilliance behind...
"The Ten Commandments"
I BELIEVE he gave his only son...I BELIEVE he died on the cross...and I Love & Respect God...but i seriously question mans abuses of the bible...where even to this today the lords word is still in the process of being twisted by man to suit his own needs and conveniences...man battling against God and Father Time with stem cell research.."Homosexuality" being "Written Into" the bible...how many times has it been twisted?...what "Edition" did we get some 4,000 years later?...why would hardliners still believe that only those who have had the privilage of being exposed to religion will be granted a pass into heaven?...was/is "Speading The Lords Word" a gfodly thing to do or?...was it attempt to rule the world?
I believe we've all been granted the ability to know right from wrong...that voice in your head...that feeling in your gut...of KNOWING with each and every one of lifes moves you make are right or wrong...and to me?...that's my God...speaking to me...with just about everything i do and every one of lifes decisions that i make.
I hafta agree with Oprah on this one...and i think it's absolute pomp and foolishness for ANY Religion/Denomination to speak, preach or threaten that there's only one right way to enter heaven...their way...and nobody elses....and i bet they love it at collection time...a sthey pass the plate to increased numbers of offerings of people who have been led there by the fear of their fellow men..proclaiming "There's Only One Way".
According to the Jews?...Accoding To the Jehovah Witnesses?....Catholics?....Christians?....Muslims/Islams?...they all think that "ONLY THEY" shall pass through the gates of heaven...so i guess in their world God is what?..not so diverse?...a bit of a Racist is he?....bullshid...not my God.
BTW...please, please please....i mean no offense to anyone or any denomination or any religion...as people think they know what they know when in fact it's just information labled as knowledge that has been taught unto them by their fellow man...but imho?...not necessarily Gods word.
And please understand...i'm a deep thinker...and at times?..i both question and fear my own thoughts...which often times stray far outside the box...but that still doesn't stop me from having them...and ?...at times deciding that ther's suitable intellect around to open up and debate such thoughts with others...as i have done here.
Just some things to think about and?...L8R, Bill.
And during the course of that time studying and practicing the 12 step programs i also attended "Sponsorship Workshops" where the focus groups primary challenge was teaching others how to deal with and accept the 3rd of the 12 steps which states...
"To turn my life and will over to the care of God as I understand Him"
with the challenge being...many of those recovering alcoholics and drug addicts who have been raised amidst hardline bible thumpers with a hellfire and brimstone theme have a real rough time accepting and putting into practice this critical step at all as they feel that no matter how far they turn thier lives around or how much atonement they make that they've done so much bad in their jaded pasts that they will never actually be forgiven...and they stumble with that 3rd step...often times slipping right back into their old ways of drinking and drugging.
As i understand it?..in it's most basic essence?...the bible (which many refer to as the word of God) is a collection of books which was then condensed by King James. With some denominations/beliefs believing only the old testament and even the most casual efforts at historical research can clearly depict many instances where the bible was used, abused and re-written by Kings and Rulers to serve their own wishes at the time.
One of these times that stands out in my mind was when the morality of slavery in this country was questioned and our own U.S. government called upon the church to verify and quantify any mans right to own another man...and the church did so by stating that because the slaves do not know God that this is grounds to rank them as nothing more than unholy savages...and they used this proclaimation for decades to serve themselves and their own evil doings against both slaves and the american indian...thereby justifying the right to own slaves annnnd?...continue on with the massive genicide of the american indian...taking both their land and their lives..as sanctioned and ordained by the church.
The Inquistions...Witch Burnings....Religious Wars and Crusades....I speak NOT against God...never...I love God....but I deeply and regretfully question man's guarding of the lords word...my God is a smart God...he wouldn't need a whole book of condensed chapters and tales told by others to get his mesage across clearly and concisely...he need just what he gave...hence the brilliance behind...
"The Ten Commandments"
I BELIEVE he gave his only son...I BELIEVE he died on the cross...and I Love & Respect God...but i seriously question mans abuses of the bible...where even to this today the lords word is still in the process of being twisted by man to suit his own needs and conveniences...man battling against God and Father Time with stem cell research.."Homosexuality" being "Written Into" the bible...how many times has it been twisted?...what "Edition" did we get some 4,000 years later?...why would hardliners still believe that only those who have had the privilage of being exposed to religion will be granted a pass into heaven?...was/is "Speading The Lords Word" a gfodly thing to do or?...was it attempt to rule the world?
I believe we've all been granted the ability to know right from wrong...that voice in your head...that feeling in your gut...of KNOWING with each and every one of lifes moves you make are right or wrong...and to me?...that's my God...speaking to me...with just about everything i do and every one of lifes decisions that i make.
I hafta agree with Oprah on this one...and i think it's absolute pomp and foolishness for ANY Religion/Denomination to speak, preach or threaten that there's only one right way to enter heaven...their way...and nobody elses....and i bet they love it at collection time...a sthey pass the plate to increased numbers of offerings of people who have been led there by the fear of their fellow men..proclaiming "There's Only One Way".
According to the Jews?...Accoding To the Jehovah Witnesses?....Catholics?....Christians?....Muslims/Islams?...they all think that "ONLY THEY" shall pass through the gates of heaven...so i guess in their world God is what?..not so diverse?...a bit of a Racist is he?....bullshid...not my God.
BTW...please, please please....i mean no offense to anyone or any denomination or any religion...as people think they know what they know when in fact it's just information labled as knowledge that has been taught unto them by their fellow man...but imho?...not necessarily Gods word.
And please understand...i'm a deep thinker...and at times?..i both question and fear my own thoughts...which often times stray far outside the box...but that still doesn't stop me from having them...and ?...at times deciding that ther's suitable intellect around to open up and debate such thoughts with others...as i have done here.
Just some things to think about and?...L8R, Bill.
Well written Jinks. Thanks for the input!(JINKSTER @ Mar. 31 2007,13:05) This entire topic is one that troubles me as i personally am in a state of un-resolve with the bible...background wise?...i was raised northern baptist (till 12) and grew up southern methodist/lutheran....i also was a U.S. Marine and i also experienced a serious problem with drugs and alcohol in my younger years...which led me to a 15 year stint of being clean and sober...during which time i actually sponsored others through the 12 step programs of A.A. and the formative years of N.A.
And during the course of that time studying and practicing the 12 step programs i also attended "Sponsorship Workshops" where the focus groups primary challenge was teaching others how to deal with and accept the 3rd of the 12 steps which states...
"To turn my life and will over to the care of God as I understand Him"
with the challenge being...many of those recovering alcoholics and drug addicts who have been raised amidst hardline bible thumpers with a hellfire and brimstone theme have a real rough time accepting and putting into practice this critical step at all as they feel that no matter how far they turn thier lives around or how much atonement they make that they've done so much bad in their jaded pasts that they will never actually be forgiven...and they stumble with that 3rd step...often times slipping right back into their old ways of drinking and drugging.
As i understand it?..in it's most basic essence?...the bible (which many refer to as the word of God) is a collection of books which was then condensed by King James. With some denominations/beliefs believing only the old testament and even the most casual efforts at historical research can clearly depict many instances where the bible was used, abused and re-written by Kings and Rulers to serve their own wishes at the time.
One of these times that stands out in my mind was when the morality of slavery in this country was questioned and our own U.S. government called upon the church to verify and quantify any mans right to own another man...and the church did so by stating that because the slaves do not know God that this is grounds to rank them as nothing more than unholy savages...and they used this proclaimation for decades to serve themselves and their own evil doings against both slaves and the american indian...thereby justifying the right to own slaves annnnd?...continue on with the massive genicide of the american indian...taking both their land and their lives..as sanctioned and ordained by the church.
The Inquistions...Witch Burnings....Religious Wars and Crusades....I speak NOT against God...never...I love God....but I deeply and regretfully question man's guarding of the lords word...my God is a smart God...he wouldn't need a whole book of condensed chapters and tales told by others to get his mesage across clearly and concisely...he need just what he gave...hence the brilliance behind...
"The Ten Commandments"
I BELIEVE he gave his only son...I BELIEVE he died on the cross...and I Love & Respect God...but i seriously question mans abuses of the bible...where even to this today the lords word is still in the process of being twisted by man to suit his own needs and conveniences...man battling against God and Father Time with stem cell research.."Homosexuality" being "Written Into" the bible...how many times has it been twisted?...what "Edition" did we get some 4,000 years later?...why would hardliners still believe that only those who have had the privilage of being exposed to religion will be granted a pass into heaven?...was/is "Speading The Lords Word" a gfodly thing to do or?...was it attempt to rule the world?
I believe we've all been granted the ability to know right from wrong...that voice in your head...that feeling in your gut...of KNOWING with each and every one of lifes moves you make are right or wrong...and to me?...that's my God...speaking to me...with just about everything i do and every one of lifes decisions that i make.
I hafta agree with Oprah on this one...and i think it's absolute pomp and foolishness for ANY Religion/Denomination to speak, preach or threaten that there's only one right way to enter heaven...their way...and nobody elses....and i bet they love it at collection time...a sthey pass the plate to increased numbers of offerings of people who have been led there by the fear of their fellow men..proclaiming "There's Only One Way".
According to the Jews?...Accoding To the Jehovah Witnesses?....Catholics?....Christians?....Muslims/Islams?...they all think that "ONLY THEY" shall pass through the gates of heaven...so i guess in their world God is what?..not so diverse?...a bit of a Racist is he?....bullshid...not my God.
BTW...please, please please....i mean no offense to anyone or any denomination or any religion...as people think they know what they know when in fact it's just information labled as knowledge that has been taught unto them by their fellow man...but imho?...not necessarily Gods word.
And please understand...i'm a deep thinker...and at times?..i both question and fear my own thoughts...which often times stray far outside the box...but that still doesn't stop me from having them...and ?...at times deciding that ther's suitable intellect around to open up and debate such thoughts with others...as i have done here.
Just some things to think about and?...L8R, Bill.
I agree Jinks, where everything man does while using the bible in twisted ways, IS very wrong. But are you letting MAN hold you back from God's wisdom? I have not, and never will let MAN stand in my way of my faith in God. PREACHERS are men, and are humans as faulty as you and I, and subject to temptation of affairs, money, power and whatever. They might even twist Biblical words to their favor - so don't listen to THEM. Seek it out on your own. Or try to find a DECENT guide, one you trust and that makes sense to you. I know it's hard to beleive in it when the offering plate goes by, but please realize churches, staff and building need finances to pay for heat, put food on the table also, just like you or I. My "church" ALWAYS ALWAYS says this before the offering, it's one of the reasons I continue to go there...
"offering is a time for the members here to support their church and their ministry. If you are a guest here, we don't expect you to participate, but accept that this service is our gift to you for attending"
Not all churchs are crap. As far as the Bible being re-modernized with stuff being written in, I ask you to do some deeper research on how the various translations came to exist, and find a translation that fits your frame of reference. The KJV might have been a very early version, but not all versions stem from that one.
Jinks, the fact that you spent the type to express all that in black and white [depending on your Windows color scheme] shows your deep interest in the topic at hand. As a Christian, again, I don't have all the answers FOR YOU. Especially to questions designed specifically for your soul. I will advise you to realize that ANY answers you get from men - myself, friends, family, even preachers are STILL from man and possibly tainted, as we've all seen time and time again [COUGH]CATHOLIC[COUGH]
but you are seeking to find truth and you WILL find it.
"offering is a time for the members here to support their church and their ministry. If you are a guest here, we don't expect you to participate, but accept that this service is our gift to you for attending"
Not all churchs are crap. As far as the Bible being re-modernized with stuff being written in, I ask you to do some deeper research on how the various translations came to exist, and find a translation that fits your frame of reference. The KJV might have been a very early version, but not all versions stem from that one.
Jinks, the fact that you spent the type to express all that in black and white [depending on your Windows color scheme] shows your deep interest in the topic at hand. As a Christian, again, I don't have all the answers FOR YOU. Especially to questions designed specifically for your soul. I will advise you to realize that ANY answers you get from men - myself, friends, family, even preachers are STILL from man and possibly tainted, as we've all seen time and time again [COUGH]CATHOLIC[COUGH]
but you are seeking to find truth and you WILL find it.
oops. forgot to mention.... gotta get my digs in about the here and now. Witches, slavery, the crusades, etc etc etc bla bla bla... none of that stuff affects us here today, now, in america, during our generation. I plead with people - if you focus on all that stuff in the past, the present is wasted. We could all argue till we're blue in the fingers, about what has gone wrong in the past. I say, whilst we waste THAT time arguing things we can not change, the current time, that we should be enjoying slips away.
I believe it is one of Satans ploys --- get everyone arguing over what can never be changed to waste our valuable time. What a cleverly invisible scheme.
I ask, what goes on today with "Christianity" or "Insert whatever religion/faith here" and is it making a better life for people NOW? Today. THIS Generation.
If it's not doing anything for anybody but wasting everyone's time squabbling over interpretations or meanings, the whole point of it all is wasted.
What is the point of it all?
To live an amazingly, wonderful life on this planet, filled with love, and leave the earth to an even better place we choose to accept freely, against every fiber of your scientific thinking, humanistic desiring ways.
It's as simple as that.
And ya don't have to kill a bunch of infidels to achieve it. Gee, do ya supposed MAN has anything to do with twisting THAT religion to suit his personal warring interests? Naaaaah, couldn't be
I believe it is one of Satans ploys --- get everyone arguing over what can never be changed to waste our valuable time. What a cleverly invisible scheme.
I ask, what goes on today with "Christianity" or "Insert whatever religion/faith here" and is it making a better life for people NOW? Today. THIS Generation.
If it's not doing anything for anybody but wasting everyone's time squabbling over interpretations or meanings, the whole point of it all is wasted.
What is the point of it all?
To live an amazingly, wonderful life on this planet, filled with love, and leave the earth to an even better place we choose to accept freely, against every fiber of your scientific thinking, humanistic desiring ways.
It's as simple as that.
And ya don't have to kill a bunch of infidels to achieve it. Gee, do ya supposed MAN has anything to do with twisting THAT religion to suit his personal warring interests? Naaaaah, couldn't be
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