Why no help?

[Charlesbusa]

Amazing, it didn't take long for New Orleans to become a 3rd world country or worse.  No major city in the US would be any different.  Something to remember if a diaster comes your way, be prepared.

Disaster has come my way, several times last year. Even in the worst hit places people did not resort to attacking the ones that came to help. I also don't recall much blaming of others for one's own choice to stay.

The New Orleans mayor should have taken a lesson from Mayor Guliani and lead his people rather than complain that the rest of the country (US Gov't/me and the rest of you) isn't leading for him. He needs to get in line at the unemployment office for his hand out and let a leader take the job as Mayor.

Disaster of that magnitude did not come your way.  Was your city as flooded or destroyed as New Orleans??  Not saying you didn't take a hit, but you didn't take a hit like this.

But you're exactly right about the mayor.

No we did not take a hit like this, but I don't think that there is a line where this type of behavior begins. I would think that it would have happened on a smaller scale if we were dealing with the same type of attitude.


Speaking for myself, I think people should attempt to be responsible for their own actions up to some degree. I don't live on the beach, but if I did and I stayed when told to leave, I wouldn't be blaming the Federal Gov't and expecting them to bail me out.

I feel for those who were unable to leave the city, like the old and injured, and people that can't walk, but I'm sure that most of those people that I see on TV yelling at the Gov't knew days ahead of time, as I did that a CAT 5 was headed their way. If it were me, I sure wouldn't still be there today, even if I had stayed during the storm. If buses can come and pick people up, there must be a road out of there. I would be hoofing it rather than expecting someone else to come save me.

I agree with everything you said.

But unfortunately in Big cities, there are too many unhonest people. Some smaller communties, especially midwest, would band together and help each other out.

Unfortunately once a city has x number of people, when disaster strikes, some of them turn into animals and kill/rape/steal from the rest.

Its just sad.

 

[Relsek]

Amazing, it didn't take long for New Orleans to become a 3rd world country or worse.  No major city in the US would be any different.  Something to remember if a diaster comes your way, be prepared.

Disaster has come my way, several times last year. Even in the worst hit places people did not resort to attacking the ones that came to help. I also don't recall much blaming of others for one's own choice to stay.

The New Orleans mayor should have taken a lesson from Mayor Guliani and lead his people rather than complain that the rest of the country (US Gov't/me and the rest of you) isn't leading for him. He needs to get in line at the unemployment office for his hand out and let a leader take the job as Mayor.

Disaster of that magnitude did not come your way.  Was your city as flooded or destroyed as New Orleans??  Not saying you didn't take a hit, but you didn't take a hit like this.

But you're exactly right about the mayor.

No we did not take a hit like this, but I don't think that there is a line where this type of behavior begins. I would think that it would have happened on a smaller scale if we were dealing with the same type of attitude.


Speaking for myself, I think people should attempt to be responsible for their own actions up to some degree. I don't live on the beach, but if I did and I stayed when told to leave, I wouldn't be blaming the Federal Gov't and expecting them to bail me out.

I feel for those who were unable to leave the city, like the old and injured, and people that can't walk, but I'm sure that most of those people that I see on TV yelling at the Gov't knew days ahead of time, as I did that a CAT 5 was headed their way. If it were me, I sure wouldn't still be there today, even if I had stayed during the storm. If buses can come and pick people up, there must be a road out of there. I would be hoofing it rather than expecting someone else to come save me.

I agree with everything you said.

But unfortunately in Big cities, there are too many unhonest people.  Some smaller communties, especially midwest, would band together and help each other out.  

Unfortunately once a city has x number of people, when disaster strikes, some of them turn into animals and kill/rape/steal from the rest.

Its just sad.

You are right to a degree, small towns do have their share of thugs, but I think it may be the sense of community in the smaller cities where the people will not allow the thugs to have their way.

 

[Aughtsix]

I can't recall seeing any coverage of the rampant crime and looting going on during the tsunami. I also don't recall seeing any coverage of aid workers being mugged and/or shot at. Oh wait - that's because none of that happened over there in those 'uncivilized' third world countries...

But here in the States we are inundated with garbage, human garbage. Were it not for the unfortunate exceptions - those who need, want and deserve help - I'd say the best thing for the country would be to form a line and shove the garbage out into the swamps to feed the gators.

The only 'relief aid' money I'd send down there would be for a case or two of 5.56x45 as long as it's used properly.

Just how I feel...

 

[Relsek]

I can't recall seeing any coverage of the rampant crime and looting going on during the tsunami.  I also don't recall seeing any coverage of aid workers being mugged and/or shot at.  Oh wait - that's because none of that happened over there in those 'uncivilized' third world countries...

But here in the States we are inundated with garbage, human garbage.  Were it not for the unfortunate exceptions - those who need, want and deserve help - I'd say the best thing for the country would be to form a line and shove the garbage out into the swamps to feed the gators.

The only 'relief aid' money I'd send down there would be for a case or two of 5.56x45 as long as it's used properly.

Just how I feel...

In my travels around the world I've noticed something about most other countries that is very different than the US. In the US if you stop at a lookout, or an historic fort for instance, it seems that there are guardrails and every sort of thing possible to keep you from hurting yourself. In the US we have to try to protect everybody from themselves. Have you ever looked at all the warning stickers on a ladder? In other places I've been, (mostly Central and South America lately) there are no such things. The gov'ts are not expected to babysit the people. The reason I bring this up is that I seem to be hearing a lot of demands out of our government, in other places where the gov't in not capable of babysitting every citizen, the citizens pick up the pieces themselves.

I was recalling riding a bus in Uruguay, once the seats were filled, you stood in the aisle, Korea was the same way. How many more people could have been carried out of the city if the buses were loaded up to the max? But no, you can't do that, someone might be uncomfortable.

I hate that we as a society have weened people away from self responsibility and onto the gov't as the great provider.



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[Mr Brown]

Obviously some of you missed the point of my post. There are several replies in this thread that I find distasteful at best. I thought that this board was populated with people who had a better understanding of life. Condemning the large numbers of people who find themselves in this situation on account of the few people who are acting like idiots is not something that I expected out of the people on this board. I suppose that I was foolish for thinking that this was one place where rasit points of view were not expressed. The Mayor IS asking for help, he IS asking for the Governor, the President, anyone to help. The attitude that it's somehow his fault, or the fault of the poor people who are being left there to die is ridiculous. Yeah, like they wanted to stay there and die......
I tried to explain that I didn't think that it was a racist issue, and here you guys go making it a racial/political thing. The good time government does not give a good goddamn about poor people, never has. They bend over backward to help themselves and their friends, all the time with the taxpayers footing the bill. How the #### can you listen to that goddamn dunce form FEMA say that they weren't aware of the problems at the goddamn convention center, when it was on every fukkin news channel for three goddamn days. Soledad O'Brien and CNN didn't have to do anything to make the administration look bad, they took care of that all by themselves.

 

[Charlesbusa]

Yeah, like they wanted to stay there and die......

Besides the old, young, sick, and those caring for them.

Everyone else had the chance to get out.
Nope, some of them bet on the come that the hurricane would turn.

They didn't stay to die, they risked staying, they rolled the dice, and lost.

It has been common knowledge that New Orleans could not survive a CAT4/5 hurricane because it is surrounded by water and below sea level.  And if you didn't know that, the weather channel has been blasting that fact days before the hurricane struck.

Now they're pissed for the choice they made.  Are they made at themselves??



<!--EDIT|Charlesbusa
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[Mr Brown]

Okay, where are people with no money, no cars and no credit supposed to go, and how do you suggest they get there? You think that people wanted to stay there? I'm sure they would have loved to leave whenever all the people that could did. You live in So. Cal right? It's common knowledge that a devastating earthquake IS coming, but you're still there aren't you? If it should strike tonight, while you are sleeping, all the roads are impassable and nobody comes to your rescue, will that be your fault?

 

[captain]

I usually keep pretty quite about things like this but Mr Brown I think you are wrong. I do not believe that the government of this country wants anyone to die but you seem to believe that they could care less. Are you so bitter that you think YOUR own people dont care about our countrymen? The government is what WE make it as a whole. My heart goes out to those folks that are trapped in the Gulf, the children and elderly are absolutely victims. Those people who you say did not have enough money to leave surely new the hurricane was coming.. I have emergency rations (including water), radio, batteries everything I need in case a devistating  Tornado comes and takes my home away. We have a shelter and we are prepared in case something happens. At what point does the individual need to become responsible for himself and family. I have insurance in case my house burns, blows away, explodes or is flooded. I do not expect the government to come and save me its not their job. Now dont get me wrong if they brought water and food I would gladly take it but I would not demand they take care of me. I find it incredible and hard to believe that there are 60 - 100 thousand people stranded there that were invalids or too poor to start walking when the warnings were issued.

I hate where we are in this country right now and everyone is pissed at the president for this NATURAL disaster. Remember the size and area that has to be covered for rescue and distribution of food and supplies. A 4 day response is extremely impressive when you look at the magnitude of organization that has to take place.

If you want to start asking questions lets go a little close to the problem and ask why the busses werent taken from the schools to get the less fortunate out of there.... Now the busses are wasted and flooded. Surely the Mayor that is screaming now new the social economic classes in his city. Why was the city and state not better prepared for this.....

It saddens me to see the country so divided and playing politics on such a tragedy. We need to bond together and all take a little personal responsibility to make this work.....

Cap

 

[Charlesbusa]

Okay, where are people with no money, no cars and no credit supposed to go, and how do you suggest they get there? You think that people wanted to stay there? I'm sure they would have loved to leave whenever all the people that could did. You live in So. Cal right? It's common knowledge that a devastating earthquake IS coming, but you're still there aren't you? If it should strike tonight, while you are sleeping, all the roads are impassable and nobody comes to your rescue, will that be your fault?

Earthquakes aren't predictable days in advance.
I don't live over a fault line or near one.

Hurricanes are predicted days in advance.
New Orleans is surrounded by water and below sea level with a know condition that the levys cannot hold a CAT4/5.

But even if a disasterous earthquake were to hit, I would not be pissed at the Gov for not rescuing me out of the 3million people in LA(I think).

Don't get me wrong, I want to see aid get to those people. I just think the mayor of New Orleans yelling at/blaming others is hypocritical.



<!--EDIT|Charlesbusa
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[Mr Brown]

Cap-
It wasn't WarBrown, it was me.
I understand that preparedness is the responsibility of the individual, and I too have food and water in my basement for use in the event of a tornado. Living in the Midwest, it is the prudent thing to do. I disagree with you when you say that it is not the governments responsibility to give aid in a disaster like this. The primary function of the government, at ANY level is the health and welfare of its citizens. That is why government exists, to provide a framework upon which the pattern of everyday life is woven. I am not blaming the President for the hurricane, obviously it's not his fault, but I hold the government agencies, particularly FEMA, directly responsible for the lack of organization, relief and support immediately following the storm. Since these are government agencies, and as such under the direct command of the President, he is ultimately responsible.
Whether or not these people should or could have left is irrelevant at this point, as is finger pointing and blame laying. To see human beings, citizens of the most powerful nation on earth no less, going days without food, water or medical supplies is absolutely unacceptable. This needs to be fixed, and fixed now.

 

[Mr Brown]

Okay, where are people with no money, no cars and no credit supposed to go, and how do you suggest they get there? You think that people wanted to stay there? I'm sure they would have loved to leave whenever all the people that could did. You live in So. Cal right? It's common knowledge that a devastating earthquake IS coming, but you're still there aren't you? If it should strike tonight, while you are sleeping, all the roads are impassable and nobody comes to your rescue, will that be your fault?

Earthquakes aren't predictable days in advance.
I don't live over a fault line or near one.

Hurricanes are predicted days in advance.
New Orleans is surrounded by water and below sea level with a know condition that the levys cannot hold a CAT4/5.

But even if a disasterous earthquake were to hit, I would not be pissed at the Gov for not rescuing me out of the 3million people in LA(I think).

Yeah they are, the scientists have been telling you for years that a major, devasting earthquake IS going to happen, and you won't have to live on a fault line to suffer the effects. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Everyone that lives in the LA Basin knows this, and lives with that specter every day.
I think you might be a little aggravated if nobody brought you food or water for 3 or 4 days after you lost everything, including your means to exit the area. I would be.

 

[frisbee]

Heres an letter I got a copy of today and I think it holds alot of truth. Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

 

[Charlesbusa]

Okay, where are people with no money, no cars and no credit supposed to go, and how do you suggest they get there? You think that people wanted to stay there? I'm sure they would have loved to leave whenever all the people that could did. You live in So. Cal right? It's common knowledge that a devastating earthquake IS coming, but you're still there aren't you? If it should strike tonight, while you are sleeping, all the roads are impassable and nobody comes to your rescue, will that be your fault?

Earthquakes aren't predictable days in advance.
I don't live over a fault line or near one.

Hurricanes are predicted days in advance.
New Orleans is surrounded by water and below sea level with a know condition that the levys cannot hold a CAT4/5.

But even if a disasterous earthquake were to hit, I would not be pissed at the Gov for not rescuing me out of the 3million people in LA(I think).

Yeah they are, the scientists have been telling you for years that a major, devasting earthquake IS going to happen, and you won't have to live on a fault line to suffer the effects. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Everyone that lives in the LA Basin knows this, and lives with that specter every day.
I think you might be a little aggravated if nobody brought you food or water for 3 or 4 days after you lost everything, including your means to exit the area. I would be.

You're not getting my point.
You think that predicting hurricanes and earthquakes is the same..

OK...


You must be watching some channel I've never seen...

3 or 4 days to implement a huge relief effort. Not bad at all. Especially for the Fed gov. Its not like we have trucks loaded with drivers on alert status...

 

[Mr Brown]

Frisbee,
There's undoubtedly some truth in that letter, but the source makes all the validity vanish. Moore is the worst of the Hollywood bloodsuckers, he is no more interested in the truth than the ultra-conservative right. He takes every opportunity to bash Bush, at the same time lining his pockets with blood money. Hollywood is equally to blame for the decaying moral fabric in our culture, they only have interest in sensationalizing everything in order to collect more money. I see the truth in a lot of what Moore says, it's a shame nobody reputable will listen.

 

[captain]

frisbee that is pathetic.... can you not come up with something better than dribble from Michael Moore.. How about something from you instead. Anyone can copy and paste..

CAp

 

[Charlesbusa]

Heres an letter I got a copy of today and I think it holds alot of truth.                   Friday, September 2nd, 2005

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It's Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren't there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today, there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn't want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don't like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don't let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don't listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn't cut the money to fix those levees, there weren't going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn't stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.

There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.

No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It's not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C'mon, they're black! I mean, it's not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don't make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

Yours,

Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
www.MichaelMoore.com

All this is on this post;

 

[Mr Brown]

Okay, where are people with no money, no cars and no credit supposed to go, and how do you suggest they get there? You think that people wanted to stay there? I'm sure they would have loved to leave whenever all the people that could did. You live in So. Cal right? It's common knowledge that a devastating earthquake IS coming, but you're still there aren't you? If it should strike tonight, while you are sleeping, all the roads are impassable and nobody comes to your rescue, will that be your fault?

Earthquakes aren't predictable days in advance.
I don't live over a fault line or near one.

Hurricanes are predicted days in advance.
New Orleans is surrounded by water and below sea level with a know condition that the levys cannot hold a CAT4/5.

But even if a disasterous earthquake were to hit, I would not be pissed at the Gov for not rescuing me out of the 3million people in LA(I think).

Yeah they are, the scientists have been telling you for years that a major, devasting earthquake IS going to happen, and you won't have to live on a fault line to suffer the effects. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Everyone that lives in the LA Basin knows this, and lives with that specter every day.
I think you might be a little aggravated if nobody brought you food or water for 3 or 4 days after you lost everything, including your means to exit the area. I would be.

You're not getting my point.
You think that predicting hurricanes and earthquakes is the same..  

OK...


You must be watching some channel I've never seen...

3 or 4 days to implement a huge relief effort.  Not bad at all.  Especially for the Fed gov.  Its not like we have trucks loaded with drivers on alert status...

Charles, I realize that predicting hurricanes and earthquakes is not the same, but my analogy is still valid. You KNOW an earthquake is coming, yet you and millions of others still remain. They KNEW a hurricane was coming, yet for whatever reasons, didn't leave.
How long did it take to get help halfway around the world to the tsunami victims? The relief was there within a week, if I remember correctly. This is not halfway around the world we're talking about, it's a few hours flight. There is no excuse for basic relief supplies to not have reached these people the day after the hurricane was gone. I don't expect gourmet meals and Champagne, but a few loads of MRE's and cases of bottled water would have helped...

 

[frisbee]

Okay , my thoughts ... I think that if I lived in New Orleans I would have left by any dam'n means . I also do believe that our gov. does have a responsibility to help us as fast as we help other countries . 1. Our National guard should NOT be anywhere but here . The regular army and the reserve are the ones to go to war . 2. I don't like Moore but some of his letter sounded of truth . We should of had efforts ready to leave the moment the storm passed , not wait until we see how bad its going to be . We all know it was GOING to be bad. I don't think the gov. owes me but if we can help every other country why not ours!? Theres my 2 cents

 

[frisbee]

I know that Moore will probly make a movie out of this and I think he's an instigator. I just saw a couple of things that I believe.

 

[Relsek]

I suppose that I was foolish for thinking that this was one place where rasit points of view were not expressed.

So, which are the racist views? Is any talk about a group of people where the majority is black a racist discussion just because the people discussing it are not black?