Can You Really Blame Israel?

Reading threads like this honestly makes me want to stop coming here. There's an awful lot of ignorant hate and twisted perspectives being thrown about here, and frankly, none of it serves to make this forum look like an attractive place to spend time at.

I see a lot of people making inferrences they have no concrete data to be making, lots of confirmation bias, and precious little objective reasoning and compassion for ALL the innocent people on all sides who have had to pay the price for the greed of a few small men. As much as many of you dont want to believe this, very little separates you from anyone else in the world, including the people of both countries being discussed here. Both groups believe that they are defending themselves and that they have a right to what they are asking for. If you look at it from the Palestinian perspective, their conflict is surprising similar to that of our own Revolutionary war; a guerilla war to repulse a foreign government occupying their homeland. If you look at it from the Israeli perspective, they are simply responding to incursions into their territories with overwhelming force with the intent to deter further actions. We can argue about the label of "Terrorist" all day long, and for the most part, all countries involved (including us, some will say) have from time to time worn that label.

In the end, what I really see is far too many people judging without really knowing, and that kind of willful ignorance is never something to be proud of.
you talk out of ur ass quite a bit.

there is no such thing as a “Palestinian people.” or a "Palestinian homeland". That's propaganda. Palestinians are the same Arabs that live in Syria, Jordan as well as Lebanon. Never at any time in history did the “Palestinians” have a homeland.

Palestinians are not a distinct people which never had or even claimed such a homeland. ur feeble attempt at trying to appear intelligent has faiiled miserably!

if the Arabs had accepted the UN's partition plan, they would have had their “Palestinian homeland” for almost 60 years. until the six-day war, the territories involved were under the control of Jordan and Egypt. only after the six-day war in 1967, when the territories reverted to Israeli control did the claim for a “Palestinian homeland” arise.

Puerto Rico is a territory. NOT Israel Einstien....:whistle: Israel is a moden day country or "State" as it was founded under.

the Arab's got their ass kicked for land that they WANTED and are still pissed off about it till this very day. those are the facts. in order to defend ones self there has to be an aggressor. the aggressor is not the Israelis its the cowards launching rockets so once again get ur facts straight before you shoot ur mouth off about something you obviously know nothing about.

and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out cause no one will miss you from coming here. learn a little about history before you accuse others of having a twisted perspective and being ignorant when its YOU that's the ignorant one here.
 
Brett I think it's you who's ignorant as there is a people known as Palestinians who come from what was once known as Palestine.

History of the Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The only reason they live in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan as you mention is because the British conquered PALESTINE
There was a PALESTINIAN exodus
Until 1948 every map in the world had it labeled as.....PALESTINE.
The original Jewish newspaper now known as the Jerusalem Post was originally the PALESTINE Post.
The Israel Philharmonic was founded as the PALESTINE orchestra.

Keep trying to erase history but some will never forget it.

palestine1.jpg
 
you talk out of ur ass quite a bit.

there is no such thing as a “Palestinian people.” or a "Palestinian homeland". That's propaganda. Palestinians are the same Arabs that live in Syria, Jordan as well as Lebanon. Never at any time in history did the “Palestinians” have a homeland.

Palestinians are not a distinct people which never had or even claimed such a homeland. ur feeble attempt at trying to appear intelligent has faiiled miserably!

if the Arabs had accepted the UN's partition plan, they would have had their “Palestinian homeland” for almost 60 years. until the six-day war, the territories involved were under the control of Jordan and Egypt. only after the six-day war in 1967, when the territories reverted to Israeli control did the claim for a “Palestinian homeland” arise.

Puerto Rico is a territory. NOT Israel Einstien....:whistle: Israel is a moden day country or "State" as it was founded under.

the Arab's got their ass kicked for land that they WANTED and are still pissed off about it till this very day. those are the facts. in order to defend ones self there has to be an aggressor. the aggressor is not the Israelis its the cowards launching rockets so once again get ur facts straight before you shoot ur mouth off about something you obviously know nothing about.

and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out cause no one will miss you from coming here. learn a little about history before you accuse others of having a twisted perspective and being ignorant when its YOU that's the ignorant one here.

You accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, then make patently untrue statements which reveal your lack of sociological knowledge and understanding of how cultures become nations.

Firstly, you say that there's no such thing as a "Palestinian People" or "Palestinian homeland"...this is completely false, as the group of people we know as Palestinians share a common group heritage and culture, as well as a history of occupying a specific region in the world. These things make the existence of a Palestinian culture, with a historical homeland and a nationality a viable concept.

Secondly, in regards to the partition plan put forth by the British government, there are several arguments that can be made as to why that plan was flawed from the Arabian perspective, not the least of which being that the plan awarded the jewish people 56% of the region though they only represented 33% of the populaton. Being that I wasn't a resident of the area nor even alive at the time of this proposal, I can only theorize as to what all the concerns were in regards to its propositions were, but looking at the 1918 British census, which indicated that 7.5% of the regional population was Jewish and 92.5% was Arab makes it tough for me to argue against the historical assertion that the area is their homeland.

Thirdly, when you refernce Puerto Rico as a territory and attempt to contrast that to Israel as a State, you are using political definitions of the word while I was using Geographic definitions. Here's the definition of Territory as per freedictionary.com for reference: 1. An area of land; a region.

Fourthly, in response to your statement talking about arabs getting their asses kicked for land they "WANTED"...I'll refer you back to the British census of 1918 which clearly shows the region as populated by more than 90% Arabic people...they didn't just want the land then, it was theirs already; there's more argument that can be made that the jewish people (working with the Colonial British government) immigrated and stole the land out from under them.

Fifthly, you make the statement that in order to defend ones self there has to be an aggressr. This statement is a pretty obvious "chicken and egg" scenario, as each side claims the other as the inital aggressor, and depending on how far back you go, there's evidence that can point to both sides being right.

You then go on to call the Palestinian fighters as "cowards launching rockets"...but really, how would you advise them to attempt to carry on their fight? If we simple dispense the larger issue of whether or not they even have a legitimate reason for attacking israel, and simply look at is from a tactical perspective, the fight is so lopsided as to be almost comical. The quality and quantity of arms on each side is so totally unbalanced that the Palestinians have no real option but to conduct a guerrilla style war. Would you advise them to stand up and get crushed by the numerically and technologically superior US backed Israeli military?

Lastly, you make a dismissive (and a little bit rude) statement about how I won't be missed were I to vacate the forums, then suggest I study history some more and call me ignorant. Considering you're making these statements based off of one posting I made, and without bothering to ask me to clarify anything I might have said which you dont agree with or understand my perspective on only really serves to reinforce my inital statement. You make lots of statements without really understanding the historical circumstances surrounding the events, then become overly defensive when I point out that there might be other perspectives that you're failing to consider. The main difference is that even though we disagree politically, I would genuinely miss your presence were you to leave, as I believe that we are all a lot more complex and worthwhile people than our small and isolated posts to each other might indicate.
 
I think the west has actually increased blood shed around the world, here's why. The natural order of a country's development is:

1. One group gets control, usually through war.
2. That group consolidates power by totalitarian tactics
3. That group subdues the country
4. To keep power, they must give back to the people

The way #4 is handled governs the outcome of the country and it's ability to become a constructive member of the world community. This only works if both sides are relatively equal in killing power. However if one side is disproportionately powerful, they are never forced to item #4, and the country remains a bloody mess - as many 3rd world countries have. We (the west, not just the USA) support this or that dictator and the country fails to rise above #3.

Just a thought.
 
Ive always think of the historical references in western culture as Palistine, Land of the Jews.


Brett I think it's you who's ignorant as there is a people known as Palestinians who come from what was once known as Palestine.

History of the Palestinian people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The only reason they live in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan as you mention is because the British conquered PALESTINE
There was a PALESTINIAN exodus
Until 1948 every map in the world had it labeled as.....PALESTINE.
The original Jewish newspaper now known as the Jerusalem Post was originally the PALESTINE Post.
The Israel Philharmonic was founded as the PALESTINE orchestra.

Keep trying to erase history but some will never forget it.

palestine1.jpg
 
OK, you want us to acknowledge IDF atrocities? I do acknowledge that. They've been awful to the Palestinians. They should have implemented a two state solution years ago.

Now, how should Israel respond to the recent attack? Should they just let it go?

You put up Syria as a model? Really? An enemy of the US, a dictator best known for gassing his own people.

How about the hostages? How should that be handled? Negotiate? Have you seen the pictures of the American hostages? How about Natali Ranaan? Seen her? 17 and beautiful. No doubt already raped to death by your freedom fighters.

Destroy Gaza and everything in it. The new Dresden. That's the only answer.
 
OK, you want us to acknowledge IDF atrocities? I do acknowledge that. They've been awful to the Palestinians. They should have implemented a two state solution years ago.

Now, how should Israel respond to the recent attack? Should they just let it go?

You put up Syria as a model? Really? An enemy of the US, a dictator best known for gassing his own people.

How about the hostages? How should that be handled? Negotiate? Have you seen the pictures of the American hostages? How about Natali Ranaan? Seen her? 17 and beautiful. No doubt already raped to death by your freedom fighters.

Destroy Gaza and everything in it. The new Dresden. That's the only answer.
Hi. Was not the the two state offered to Palestinians and they rejected it. In 1948? Then the went to war and lost. So to me it is all there fault. They got what they did not want.
 
Hi. This kind of goes back 3,700 years. I think that they want it all.
It is part of the historical agenda driven events that keep repeating through history to the present day that show us the evil side of humankind.

If we could get rid of the crazy component in the people that drives them to want to kill others we could have a much better world.

Wanting it all means somebody wins and somebody loses when the fighting begins.
 
It is part of the historical agenda driven events that keep repeating through history to the present day that show us the evil side of humankind.

If we could get rid of the crazy component in the people that drives them to want to kill others we could have a much better world.

Wanting it all means somebody wins and somebody loses when the fighting begins.
Islam , Christianity and Judaism are a lot closer than we think

There are many references of Jesus in the Quran


1. He is not the God

2. He is not a part of the Trinity. (Islam utterly and unequivocally rejects the doctrine of the Trinity.)

3. He is a prophet

4. He is one of the most important prophets

5. He came to warn about the overly legalistic understanding of the religion by the Jews

6. He is the Word of the God (the relevant verses: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him" and "We breathed into her (body) Our Spirit")

7. He is born of Virgin Mary, who is considered the most holy woman among the mankind.

8. He was a carpenter or handyman

8b. He performed miracles (speaking as an infant, making a clay bird come alive, healing the blind and the lepers, etc.)
 
Have you got any ideas that could change the current status quo that keeps repeating itself?
As an American the first thing I’d do is stop funding to both parties. One has the unwavering financial and military support from us which has given them mindset they can do anything and they are. Maybe if both parties were forced to come to the table things could change?
Then again in saying that would be ignoring history when radicals on both sides assassinated Sadat and Begin for trying to make peace.

I don’t have a solution. What I do know is repeating the same thing over and over hoping for a different outcome is the definition of insanity. And both sides are still doing just that.
 
you talk out of ur ass quite a bit.

there is no such thing as a “Palestinian people.” or a "Palestinian homeland". That's propaganda. Palestinians are the same Arabs that live in Syria, Jordan as well as Lebanon. Never at any time in history did the “Palestinians” have a homeland.

Palestinians are not a distinct people which never had or even claimed such a homeland. ur feeble attempt at trying to appear intelligent has faiiled miserably!
the Arab's got their ass kicked for land that they WANTED and are still pissed off about it till this very day. those are the facts. in order to defend ones self there has to be an aggressor. the aggressor is not the Israelis its the cowards launching rockets so once again get ur facts straight before you shoot ur mouth off about something you obviously know nothing about.
the history is Israel is a land that has been conquered by many many nations for many thousand years what we are seeing in its current form is a Zionist edition formed by the hands of British control starting in(1917) who under the allied forces in the 1st world war conquered the ottoman and German forces. the Ottoman who had Palestine as part of their empire from 1517 (400years). during the war the British trained the Palestinians to fight the ottoman forces in agreement to have control of Palestine land after the war,
but the British duped the Palestinians and made a mandate to govern Israel for a period known as the Balfour Declaration because the British wanted the oil north in Iraq. However in Britain they decided to bring the Jews back to the homeland after the war and so it began the British Zionist Federation who aim was to control the governance of all of Palestine, During the second world war Jewish Zionest underground forces now united The Haganah had resisted attacking the British as long as they were fighting Nazi Germany until the war was over, their fighters allied themselves with Irgun and carried out organized raids against the British, The Zionest terrorist had killed over 100 british and wounded over 300 and had an insatiable appetite for Palestinian conquest It became challenging for the british to rule and ultimately it became untenable to stay in Palestine. under an agreement with the the un counsel a two state resolution was decided the British would exit in 1947, and a two state solution would take affect. so the two state resolution never came into effect because the 1948 war started because the Arab nations were aggrieved by the British reneging on the deal with the Palestinian forces whom assisting the allied forces in defeating the ottomans in the middle east during ww1
 
If that is true then those Arabs and those committed to violence by suicide are good examples of martyrdom. The end justifies the means.
Yes that's how they see it alright, they are highly motivated, 72 maidens and all that.

The basis of this particular reward, with the number 72, is a hadith narrated in the Sunan of Imam Tirmidhi, in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said:“The martyr has six unique traits: he is forgiven immediately; he sees his seat in Paradise and he is saved from the punishment of the grave; he is granted safety from the great terror [of the Day of Judgment]; a crown of honor is placed upon his head, a ruby of which is better than this life and all it contains; he is married to 72 maidens of Paradise; and he is allowed to intercede for 70 relatives.”

I guess the only qualifying point is what constitutes a martyr. In the western christian context it is one who is abused or slain by non-believers, not one who kills themselves and a dozen innocent bystanders. In our western culture where religion and state are separate that person is a psychotic murderer.
 
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