French Wage War on SUV

[eynlai]

check it..

watch it two/three times to really get yourself laughing uncontrolably.

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/eow.html

hahahaha, but I don't see anything about the depletion of resources... such as oil! I may not agree with your championing SUV, but I'll have a drink with you and watch that retarded video and bicker about SUVs. I drink scotch, single malt... picky, but no beer please... well if I had to, a darker ale like Samuels or Gordon Birsch.

 

[pure_ego]

bleh.. corona, or you'll hafta brown bag it.. haha. Not much on any of it really... I think there is some tequila around here from mexico.. just cuz it had the worm in it.. I think I may have some gran marnier.. but it's probably gone flat.. or whatever liqour does.. never was much on liqour.

WTF MATE?

 

[busahaya]

 

[eynlai]

Eynlai, I actually posted a great article from Motorcycle Consumer News about SUV's back in January.  It makes a very strong case for SUV's being a large contributor in the increasing death rate of motorcyclists involved in accidents.  This could add some fuel to your fire.

Thanks Warborn.

Sad to discover that my assumptions are in fact true and studied. For those of you that kept yelling, "SUV are no more dangerous than the average car!" Read this article that Warborn posted. Start in the middle of page 2.

So how many of you are going to cry and whine that SUVs are NOT a hazard on the road?!

Jeez, a little common sense would've told you that. For those of you that argue so heatedly for the SUV cause and ride a bike... Sorry, but you're at a state of duality. On one hand, you love and drive a menance on the road, on the other hand you ride one of the most vulnerable vehicles on the road which is a bike.

Go ahead, fire back some of the smart, snide comments after you read this article. I like to see your come backs.

 

[eynlai]

by the way, for those that say that they can see out of a SUV as well as a car or mini-van... go to the bottom of page 4 in the section "visons problem"

 

[RandomNickname]

I'll have to go through the article more when I have more time, but in a quick speed-read of it, I notice a ton of "it is speculated that" and "this can be seen as an analogy for" and "this may mean/result in". It looks like a ton of it is speculative rhetoric that cherry-picks data in order to somewhat prop up what it wants to say.

I'll go over it as well, but I will say that some of their speculation seems more designed to rely on the emotional response of the reader, rather than a logical one.

 

[bronc3]

I've been driving SUV's since before they were "the in thing" and labeled "SUV". Because of the day to day things I do, I not only need one, but need a capable one as well. Too bad the yuppies' popularity contests have reduced them (and pickups as well) to not more than oversized cars, unless you spend 50k or so on a 1 ton. My dilemma now is that I have a fairly long daily commute that I don't need a truck for, but need to tow on the weekends. I have a downsized SUV now for the fuel economy, but it's towing capacity is barely sufficient. I can't afford to have a tow vehicle sitting around all week waiting for the weekend, so I am looking at full sized trucks again, even though I only need one 20% of the time. There is no simple answer for me. Still, many folks have them just because they can. That is a waste with the possible exception of security. I hate driving a front wheel drive tinfoil coffin. Especially with all the SUV's running around with your name on their massive bumpers.



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[kod3001]

You're quite right about what was originally said, you can't generalise about how people drive.

Well, sadly, you can.  Ever heard of "nature of the beast"?  I've seen numerous replies calling me a moron, idiot, etc... And then I see how someone said that with their family in a SUV, "better you than [my family]".

Point and case, someone asked that question, "why don't f*cking cagers pay attention?!".  And my reply is that they DON'T have to, especially if they're in a SUV.  Allow me to lay out the logic:

*  Mostly, if not all, of you SUV champions argue that it's "safer" for you and your family in a SUV... You ever think about it's because of other SUVs??

*  Why are YOU ATTENTIVE (and hopefully a bit considerate) WHILE RIDING YOUR BUSA OR BIKE?  Because you know that if you get into a wreak while on a bike (or god forbid, your busa), you're likely to get hurt.  In a SUV, with your sense of security from being hurt in a accident (false or true, doesn't matter), what is your incentive to being attentive, careful and considerate?  Even if it is YOUR fault in a SUV, with collision insurance coverage, your SUV is covered for damages, and at most if this is a one time incident in 3 years, at most, your insurance will only go up $50 to $100 for 6 months.  While if you hit / or caused a accident with a smaller vehicle, the occupant of that vehicle will likely suffer more injuries or death, especially if it's a bike.  So your insurance will pay out the maximum of your policy, wash their hands clean, you hide your personal assets by transferring them to your mom/dad's name so you have nothing to be sued for and you have a seriously injuried or dead victim on your hands.  And sadly, you don't really care because you didn't get hurt and your insurance only went up $50, $100, $200 per 6 months.  So why should the majority of SUV drivers be attentive and considerate?  It's not YOUR skin while in a SUV.  Sadly, I thought since some of you ride, you would understand that.

*  I shouldn't generalize?  Ever heard of the term, "if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck..."?  Well, you know the rest.  Also, think I'm a idiot for generalizing?  Take a look at this SportRider article on Urban Riding Skills based on decades of riding in Los Angeles.  http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9508_skill/
Look at the paragraph under: URBAN GUERRILLA STEP ONE: TRUST NO ONE
So that also brings to the point of safety.  If you truly want safetly for you and your family, you would get a Volvo.  Those things are like tanks but not the size of one.  I've personally seen one on it's roof after it's flipped over and it looks like all it needs is a paint job for the roof once it's get flipped back right side up.

Am I generalizing about SUV and the drivers that inherited "the nature of the beast"?  Damn right I am.  That's because I've personally observed too many validating examples.

Also, another thing I can add to the fallacy of SUVs, which is in relations to their unnecessary size is their obstruction of view through.  Regardless of whether you're driving in a cage or riding a bike... Next time follow a SUV, see if you can see what's ahead of them, like coming up to a traffic congestion.  And that's even if you ride/drive responsibly by abiding by the 2-3 second behind rule.  Wouldn't it be nice to be about to see those brake lights that's ahead of the SUV so you can anticipate a eventual slow down or necessary stop and not have to rely on the SUV driver's reactions solely?  What if the SUV driver has a habit of late braking?  What if the brake lights on that big SUV is burnt out?  Guess where you'll end up?  I just hope it's not on your busa.

And for those of you that are saying, "it's my money, I spend it how I like.  So f*ck you!"  Well think about this once again for those of you that missed out on econ class or forgot it.  It may cost you $70 to fill your SUV tank, but by depleting the oil supply at your SUV's gas guzzling rate you did CONTRIBUTE to the rising gasoline price.  Some of you keep missing that I stated that SUV are CONTRIBUTING to the rising gasoline price, but I didn't say that's SUVs are the sole factor.   Just like SUVs are contribution to traffic congestion, NOT the sole factor, others would include simply just over population of vehicles on the road, accidents, nosey spectators of accidents (and in some cases causing other accidents), inexperience drivers that think they're going really fast but are not and holding up traffic, and poor freeway/highway design.

And lastly, yes, I knew this topic would draw a heated debate.  But it's interesting now, isn't it?

So think about this: I've often commented to BusaHaya that if some of these cage drivers were to have to ride bikes (not necessarily busas) and they ride the way they drove, I guess half would be dead or seriously injured by now.  Ask yourself this question for all you SUV proponents:  If you (or any typical SUV drivers) rode your bike the way you drive your SUVs, how likely would you be in a accident and be dead or injured?

Am I saying that SUV by itself is a hazard to the road, environment, and the economy?  No, it's a inanimate object nonetheless.  But remember, "Nature of the Beast".  Drivers of SUVs have less of a incentive to be attentive and considerate because they believe/know that their own personal safety is less at stake than others for their carelessness.  Environmentally and economically?  Couple the SUV with the depleting resources and greedy oil companies, as well as competing, rising oil consumers such as China and India, and there you have it.

May my observations be valid to you?  I don't know.  May my observations be valid for the entire world?  Maybe.  May my observations be valid for SUV drivers in Los Angeles, San Diego, and Ventura, California?  Likely, because I've been driving for over 16 years in these areas and riding almost 20,000 miles on my busa in about 18 months in these areas.

Scariest thing is I seen more and experienced more in my 18 months / 20,000 miles of riding than I did in my 16 or so years of driving.

Some of you offended?  You betcha'.  So what?  I call it the way I see it.  So ask yourself, do you really NEED  a SUV?  Or does it just make you feel more manly and dominate?  If you do for the latter reason, then you have some serious "short comings".  My sister once commented that driving a SUV made her feel like king (queen in her case) on the road and that she had a "commanding view".  Then she realize how pointless it was and that it actually altered her perception of true speed (the higher the ride, the faster you feel like you're going, but not in comparison to a car.  But that's another subject for another time) so she got rid of it and got herself a 5 series BMW.

Remember, "Nature of the Beast".  Now chew on that.  By the way, for those that argue that Mini-Vans are no better.  Someone already cited that mini-vans are more fuel effiecient because most these days are 6 cylinders.  Now I dare you to tell me that Mini-Vans don't have more view through space (windows measured in cubic inches) than 90% of the SUVs in the market.

eynlai,

surely you didn't read my original post on page 1? here I am, one of very few people that support 'some' of your argument.

If you want to change anything, it requires a complete change in culture - a paradigm shift if you prefer.

I haven't called you an idiot, moron etc... I have tried to see both sides of the story.

You've only generalised from what you have 'personally observed', so like I say... you can't generalise.

If you do, you'll end up alienating 90% of the drivers in the US, oh but I forget, you already have.

 

[Mr Brown]

Here ya go eynlai, let me summarize it for you: I really could not care less about what you think of my choice of transportation, b!tch all you want. The fuel consumption of SUV's has absolutely nothing to do with the depletion of oil supplies or the rising cost of fuel. If you were as interested in discovering the facts of that issue as you were assigning blame you would know this. The worlds supply of oil is not going to run out anytime soon. The bottleneck is refining the crude. The cost of fuel is rising because we are stil buying it. if we significantly slow down our consumption, the cost will stabilize, but until that point, it will increase.
Your argument about unsafe drivers operating SUV's is stereotypical. I would have thought that you would be the LAST person to stereotype and generalize drivers' abilities. Aren't you Asian?
Would you like to remove all the semi and bobtail trucks from the road too? Perhaps we aught to ban motorcycles over 125 cc because most of the people that ride them break the speed limit.....
Tell ya what, I'll keep my Tahoe and Expedition, you keep sipping that diet soy mochatino latte and eating braised asparagus tips and driving your hybrid Honda.......

 

[busahaya]

Hehe, talking about hybrids, could you imagine a the next generation Busa being a hybrid

 

[1127 TO 1299]

I've been a long outspoken opponent against SUVs, more so against those big, massive, bohemoth ones like the Expeditions, Hummers, etc.. than the more reasonables ones like the older 4-Runners.

But seems the French are finally seeing and saying something that we won't:

http://news.yahoo.com/s....tofthem

I know I may get some fire back for this from the SUV owners. But here it is:

SUVs, the monterous ones are ONE OF THE WORST INVENTIONS EVER, EVER, EVER PUT ON THE MARKET.

Here is why:

#1. Typcially SUV drivers are less attentive and less considerate. As bikers we've all experienced that first hand before. SUV drivers, I found, drive SUVs so if/when they get into accidents, they would suffer little to no injuries while inflicting greater injuries on those that are involved with the accidents with them. So why should they be attentive and considerate??

#2. SUV do take up too much room on the road for no valid reason. Come on, we've all heard it, "I need the room". My question is, 'For what??!!'. If you truely need that much room, then get a mini-van. How many times have we've seen the biggest SUVs driven by the smallest (physic-wise) drivers? I had a co-worker that was so small, she had to get 2 pillows so she can see over the steering wheel of her Escalade! I truely believe SUV should only be sold to and driven by those that truely need it. Like the truely ++++++++ sizes, say 350 lb. +

#3. Tying into #1. SUVs are extremely dangerous because the visiability in them are poor and the handling is hap-hazardeous at best. Most SUVs are so damn big and the windows are so small in comparison you can't really see anything. Coupled with the fact that SUVs have the worst handling capabilities. Most are top-heavy and are likely to body-roll like it was a donut + will flip. However, I've seen way too many times where some BLING-OUT punk will drive it like he/she's driving a 2 seater Porsche. Especially when they are trying to race us bikers. To hell with graduate driver's licenses for bikes, how about qualifying driving licenses for SUVs?? Likely 2 tests, WHY do one need to buy and drive a SUV, and special license that one CAN safely drive a SUV. Like one of those Semi-truck licenses or commercial bus licenses ( in CA those are A class I believe).

#3. Space HOGS. We've all seen them before. Pull in to a parking lot and you see a SUV parked in a "compact" space making it too tight to fit anything else but a bike. Sometimes, you see a SUV take up 2 spaces because that driver is FULLY inconsiderate. We've seen them before on the road, taking up way too much lane than they need and that they can handle simply to satisfy their EGOs. In traffic congestion, SUV actually contributes to the trafffic jam because of all of the room they're taking up while sitting still. And SUVs are particularly dangereous because the driver can be ignorant by not seeing where they are going during a lane change, or they simply don't care and boss their way in.

#4. GAS HOG, GAS HOG, GAS HOG. I like to think that I'm environmentally conscience and all, but I'm more capitalist than anything. But nonetheless, let me satisfy my environmentally conscience side and say that SUVs are guzzling up resources like there's not tomorrow... And at this rate, there might not be, thanks in part o SUVs. Now let me speak economically. SUV are in a very large part to blame for our high gas/petro prices (the other is obviously the greedy oil company). Now, I'm not to say how other people should spend their $$$, unless it affects me. SUV affects me, my wallet and YOUR wallet as well. How? When a SUV is burning gas at the rate of 8 MPG or even 13 MPG, it's cost more than just the driver/owner that's dishing out $70 to full up. It's costing you and me. At that gas-guzzling rate of the SUV, it's using up the supply of oil/gas, thus the shorter supply (and even though demand remains steady), the higher the gas prices for EVERYONE.

So give me one valid reason for having a SUV, unless you're over 350 lb, or disabled?

For those of you that argue that, "well, there's things that SUV drivers can cite about us bikers"... Tell me which one of the 4 reasons that I listed above as bikers we fit into?

If anything, as bikers, we are OPPOSITE of the 4 reasons that I've listed. We save gas, there by keeping the price low. We save space, traffic congestion-wise and parking-wise. We're more attentive (even if some of us are not considerate) because we are so vulnerable. And of coarse if we get into accidents, we're the least likely to cause harm/injuries to others.

My remedy for the SUV? SUVs should require a special license and valid reasoning to have one and to operate one, like if you're obese or disabled. SUVs for any other reason should be charged $20 per gallon of gas at the pump. SUVs should have to pay at least 4 times the amount for a annual registration. SUVs should be charged a mininum insurance of $3000 every 6 months for insurance, and that's just for liablility only, add comprehensive and collision it should cost at the mininum of $7000 every 6 months. That's for all of the damages and/or injuries that SUVs causes. One "at-fault" accident should cause the insurance to go up to a mininum of $10,000 for liablility only and $20,000 every 6 months for that SUV driver.

Maybe I should write to congress?

so, what do you drive

in my case, if I had to choose to drive a car and pull a trailer for weekend gateways or drive a SUV, I'll drive a SUV.

 

[busahaya]

I can't help it no more, sorry Eddie, I'm going to have to get a SUV... Everybody's getting one... i'm going with the flow

 

[eynlai]

so, what do you drive  

in my case, if I had to choose to drive a car and pull a trailer for weekend gateways or drive a SUV, I'll drive a SUV.

IF I had to, I drive my Acura 2.2CL, Manual tranny to maximize MPG while still tapping into whatever RPM power I can get.

But since my busa, my car is strictly for ultilitarian purposes only: grocery, having passengers, meeting with clients and I can't show up in riding gear but in a suit. On the average now, my car sees the road about once or twice a week and average only about 30 miles cumulated.

And yes, IF there is a need for a SUV, then by all means. Like towing, large quantity carrying, etc... But it's that YUPPIE SUV trend that's bad. I don't see anything wrong with having one a ultilitarian vehicle, such as a weekend tower, or someone in the construction business that needs to haul around stuff 60% of the time, etc... But having it as a fashion statement?? OR simply because you have to drive around 3 passengers (unless they're 300 lb + each)???

That's where I'm getting at.

 

[eynlai]

...Still, many folks have them just because they can. That is a waste with the possible exception of security. I hate driving a front wheel drive tinfoil coffin. Especially with all the SUV's running around with your name on their massive bumpers...

So it's a catch 22 situation. I saw that in a lot of the replies now. "I don't feel safe for me (and my family) in a car because there's a lot of those dangereous SUVs around, so I'll get a SUV too.".

Doesn't that sound like the nuclear arms race back during the Cold War? "Russia's got nukes so we need them, they got more nukes, so we got to build more... Sh*t now North Korea got them too!....."

 

[eynlai]

Ha-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1.I drive a huge, gas-guzzling, road-hogging, SUV just to piss off self-righteous  whiney piss ants like you.....
Glad it's working!!

Who the F do you think you are, anyway?
Worry about what YOU want to drive, wear, eat, etc....not your nieghbors, dude.....stress is a killer.

I'll be printing your post to take to work today so everyone can get a good laugh. I did.!

Obviously I struck a chord with you, whether you like to admit it or not. Otherwise, why even use profanity and question my authority (which is none other than logic and personal observation) over this subject so viciously?

Dude, you're not pissing me off... you just proved my case by replying the way you did. And my response to your neighbor statement: 'Whatever floats your boat, as long as it doesn't float too close to me.'

Print this and bring it to work for a good laugh:

* Next time you ride/drive look around you. You think you're the only person on the road? Maybe you drive/ride like you do. I don't know, but I wouldn't want to find out. Because like that, you've just proven the inconsideration of the SUV drivers I cited.

* Next time you go to the gas station look around you. You're getting gas ultimately from the same source everyone else (me included) is getting gas from.

It just stuck me that if you were a female you would have one of those retarded bumper stickers that saids "I maybe a bit*h, but I'm not your bit*h".... OR more than likely since you're a guy, you have one of those bumper stickers that saids, "Don't like my driving? Call 1-800-EAT-Sh*t" on your SUV.

Face it, you're just a selfish, inconsiderate SUV drivers that I specifically cited and that struck a nerve with you.
Despite the fact you may ride a busa (and I don't know how often), you seem like the type that would hit another rider and run if you can. I bet you as of recent blasted your music at night or made some sort of engine noise at night for you own amusement without any regards for your neighbors.

Print that out and take it to share it with your co-workers to get a good laugh.

 

[bronc3]

...Still, many folks have them just because they can. That is a waste with the possible exception of security. I hate driving a front wheel drive tinfoil coffin. Especially with all the SUV's running around with your name on their massive bumpers...

So it's a catch 22 situation.  I saw that in a lot of the replies now. "I don't feel safe for me (and my family) in a car because there's a lot of those dangereous SUVs around, so I'll get a SUV too.".

Doesn't that sound like the nuclear arms race back during the Cold War?  "Russia's got nukes so we need them, they got more nukes, so we got to build more... Sh*t  now North Korea got them too!....."

Yup, but I actually need it to tow, and occassionally need off road capabilty. Used to need a GOOD 4X4 on a daily basis, now not so often. Too bad they ALL suck in that department, despite what the marketing people tell us.

 

[eynlai]

...The cost of fuel is rising because we are stil buying it. if we significantly slow down our consumption, the cost will stabilize, but until that point, it will increase.
Your argument about unsafe drivers operating SUV's is stereotypical. I would have thought that you would be the LAST person to stereotype and generalize drivers' abilities. Aren't you Asian?
...

That's right, fuel is rising because we keep buying it. SUVs are known to burn more at a less effiecent rate, hence SUVs are consuming MORE fuel than the average vehicle. Hence the SUVs have to buy MORE. Therefore, the supply is being used up at a faster rate (or so the oil companies are using the excuse) thereby prompting the price increase for EVERYONE. See how A led to B then led to C?

Did you realize that you actually argued my point?

Yup, I'm asian, so I can generalize that us asians are indeed one of the worst drivers on the road. I can say that not simply because I AM asian (if you said it, you might get accused of being a racist), but because I've had many personal observations for extended period of time of my fellow Asians behind the wheel. In fact, I hate/am scared to ride in any asian dense neighborhoods such as Monterey Park, Alhambra, San Gabriel, etc... So really, I can say that because I've been in those environment to make a first hand observation, right? So, yeah, ASIAN + SUV (especially the really big ones) = Pending disaster. And guess why asians are buying up the SUVs (even if it's the fake ones like the Porsches, Infiniti, Lexus, Benz, BMWs)? 2 reasons: #1. It's the latest trend (yes, asian in general are notorious for following trends, or "what's in"); #2 Asians are such poor drivers + all of the other SUVs on the road and therefore SUVs are bought for that "feeling of security".

 

[Thinker62]

I don't have time to read all 3 pages of responses here, but man that logic is pretty superficial, opinionated, and does a lot of sterotyping. I recently bought my first SUV, and it is a big mother. But there is no way you can convince me that I drive any differently than I did before. Yes, it is much more than I really need. But can you actually make this argument with a straight face and then go get on your Hayabusa with 1300 CC's and 189mph capability? By your logic, we should all sell our Busas and buy Scooters.

I ride a big bad bike, which is bigger than I need. I drive a big bad SUV, which is bigger than I need. I live in a 2,400 sq ft house, which is bigger than I need. I work out to develop muscles that are bigger than I need. I do all this because I freak'n want to.

Isn't that the American way? I kinda like the American way myself. Your arguments are excellent reasons that YOU sshouldn't buy a big SUV.



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[busahaya]

"Think Big" has struck again

 

[eynlai]

...But can you actually make this argument with a straight face and then go get on your Hayabusa with 1300 CC's and 189mph capability? [/b] By your logic, we should all sell our Busas and buy Scooters.

I ride a big bad bike, which is bigger than I need. I drive a big bad SUV, which is bigger than I need. I live in a 2,400 sq ft house, which is bigger than I need. I work out to develop muscles that are bigger than I need. I do all this because I freak'n want to.

The topic and focus is choices that affect OTHERs other than yourself.

Using you choice for a Busa as a example:

* Does your Busa guzzle gas at 12 or less mpg thereby rapidly depleting the oil supply and giving the oil company another reason to hike the price? NO.

*If you rammed your Busa into another vehicle, will your Busa cause potentially massive injury, damage or even death to OTHERs than yourself? No.

Using your 2400 sq. ft. house as a example:

* Is your big house infringing upon the rights and a safety of your neighbors? Likely not, because that's controlled by your city.

So how can you compared the Busa and your house to the arguement of the SUV? Completely different characteristics.