GM wants more money????

[F=MA]

I disagree with some of what you say. While I agree that the union has its issues, when we as tax payers bail their dumb ass's out they should HAVE to build their products here in its entirety using American employees.

If they want to pack up and leave, then fine pay us back and get the hell out of here.

Funny Ford is doing ok using union labor, why is that? Can't blame Gm's failure on the union.

Fair enough, but it wasn't really a commentary on union labor.

It doesn't matter if the U.S. government requires GM to build all its vehicles in the U.S. or not. If they can't be produced profitably for the Chinese market in the U.S. no U.S. government mandate is going to make Chinese consumers buy those vehicles vs. a competitive, lower priced alternative.

G.M. is not just a U.S. company, it is a multinational corporation. While we sit and debate whether every car G.M. produces should be built in the U.S. from our simple viewpoint, capitalism and simple economics dictate that production go to the most efficient means...otherwise we'll just be positioning that company for future financial aid.

In the interim, profits earned by G.M. building cars in China for the Chinese market...and eventually the U.S. market are repatriated back to the U.S. Stakeholders in G.M.'s success (you and I), Shareholders, and the U.S. Treasury's benefit without a single American having to pick up a wrench and turn a nut.

Certainly it would be nice if the lowest skilled among us were still able to walk out of a lackluster high school and into a plant in Flint earning $30/hr. to screw lug nuts on a car. We don't have the benefit of living in the 1960's anymore though, and no matter how much we kick and scream, America is unlikely to return to that era of manufacturing dominance.

It's not about "pack up and leave", it's about "produce as much profit as you ethically can so you can pay us back, give your shareholders a reasonable return on investment, and contribute more to the U.S. Treasury through corporate income taxes".

If we continue to view ourselves as worthy of the standard of living we currently enjoy while pursuing work that 1.5 billion Chinese and 1.3 billion Indians are more than capable and willing to do for 1/10th the wage, we're going to get drowned by the globalization wave.

If you've ever shopped at Wal-Mart, you've likely added a bucket of water to that wave.

Respectfully

 

[lar300mag]

Most every post you have made in this thread or others Falcon A, you attack any Org member that that doesnt agree with your views. I see you having a lot of emenies here in the future if you cant show the brotherhood here a little more respect. Your antics are unnessary and uncalled for. My conversation with you is over!

 

[Falcon-A]

Fair enough, but it wasn't really a commentary on union labor.

It doesn't matter if the U.S. government requires GM to build all its vehicles in the U.S. or not. If they can't be produced profitably for the Chinese market in the U.S. no U.S. government mandate is going to make Chinese consumers buy those vehicles vs. a competitive, lower priced alternative.

G.M. is not just a U.S. company, it is a multinational corporation. While we sit and debate whether every car G.M. produces should be built in the U.S. from our simple viewpoint, capitalism and simple economics dictate that production go to the most efficient means...otherwise we'll just be positioning that company for future financial aid.

In the interim, profits earned by G.M. building cars in China for the Chinese market...and eventually the U.S. market are repatriated back to the U.S. Stakeholders in G.M.'s success (you and I), Shareholders, and the U.S. Treasury's benefit without a single American having to pick up a wrench and turn a nut.

Certainly it would be nice if the lowest skilled among us were still able to walk out of a lackluster high school and into a plant in Flint earning $30/hr. to screw lug nuts on a car. We don't have the benefit of living in the 1960's anymore though, and no matter how much we kick and scream, America is unlikely to return to that era of manufacturing dominance.

It's not about "pack up and leave", it's about "produce as much profit as you ethically can so you can pay us back, give your shareholders a reasonable return on investment, and contribute more to the U.S. Treasury through corporate income taxes".

If we continue to view ourselves as worthy of the standard of living we currently enjoy while pursuing work that 1.5 billion Chinese and 1.3 billion Indians are more than capable and willing to do for 1/10th the wage, we're going to get drowned by the globalization wave.

If you've ever shopped at Wal-Mart, you've likely added a bucket of water to that wave.

Respectfully

Good points! I try to stay clear of Walmarts thank you very much.

I understand the grand scheme of things, on the global market etc..

What I do not understand and agree with is supporting a company that has been building unreliable junk for decades. I know I work with their products more then ALL other brands put together.

People are so fickle that just because they get a good deal and save a few bucks at purchase time, they think that is ok to buy one. Long term is key. What will last, certainly not but a few GM products produced to this day. Few models/engines have any decent track record whatsoever. Get used to your check engine like being on.

GM has been the epitomy of throw away garbage. Hell you could just as well sell it at Walmart, its of the same quality. Plastic garbage destined for the landfill.

I am not by any means supporting Ford as a perfect company, but I will suport it now because it is the ONLY Functioning American automaker left.

While Japan has been moving in here building its products over here there isn't enough dealer base yet to be convienent for everyone to own one. But none the less they are quality cars that are hard to beat for durability.

Personally I love German cars myself, and own one at this time, and a Ford truck, I will for sure support Ford next car because its about survival of the fit. Gm does not and will not EVER get my support until they have paid back every last dime loaned to them.

Of your points made, you didn't really explain how Ford does it on their own?
That is my whole argument of this topic. GM should have went down.

 

[F=MA]

Most every post you have made in this thread or others Falcon A, you attack any Org member that that doesnt agree with your views. I see you having a lot of emenies here in the future if you cant show the brotherhood here a little more respect. Your antics are unnessary and uncalled for. My conversation with you is over!

I haven't seen posts from other threads from this member, but I can understand how a person could get riled up about the headline behind this conversation. As with most things though, headlines are a lot simpler than reality, and no matter how much easier it would be for us, the world isn't simply black and white.

Perhaps with a little more time reading the forums here our new member might learn a little about how to communicate a little less antagonistically. He/she may not be used to communicating on a forum with the level of maturity we enjoy here most of the time.

 

[F=MA]

Good points! I try to stay clear of Walmarts thank you very much.

I understand the grand scheme of things, on the global market etc..

What I do not understand and agree with is suporting a company that has been building unreliable junk for decades. I know I work with their products more then ALL other brands put together.

People are so fickle that they they just because they get a good deal and save a few bucks at purcase time, that is ok. Long term is key. What will last, certainly not but a few GM products produced to this day.

GM has been the epitomy of throw away garbage. Hell you could just as well sell it at Walmart, its of the same quality. Plastic garbage destined for the landfill.

I am not by any means supporting Ford as a perfect company, but I will suport it now because it is the ONLY Functioning American automaker left.

While Japan has been moving in here building its products over here there isn't enough dealer base yet to be convienent for everyone to own one. But none the less they are quality cars that are hard to beat for durability.

Personally I love German cars myself, and own one at this time, and a Ford truck, I will for sure support Ford next car because its about survival of the fit. Gm does not and will not EVER get my suport until they have paid back every last dime loaned to them.

Of your points made, you didn't really explain how Ford does it on their own?
That is my whole argument of this topic. GM should have went down.

I don't have an explanation for how Ford did it...though Alan Mullaly was very lucky with his timing of activating a very large credit line prior to the meltdown in the credit market. That alone is probably the main reason Ford is in the position it is currently in.

I think in a different point in history we might have seen GM fail...numerous other car manufacturers have in this country. Troubles in the auto industry manifested themselves within a month of credit markets seizing up in late 2008. While the government (bi-partisan) was scrambling to avoid a catastrophic collapse of the banking industry, the next domino that needed to be stabilized was the auto industry.

If we think the economy is bad now, or that the unemployment rate is high at present, just think how bad it would be if you had an employer the size of GM shut down...placing additional strain on the already fragile banking system.

I don't disagree with you about the need to produce a quality product people want, and I agree that under most conditions the free market should be allowed to determine winners and losers. The problem was the timing of the issue I believe.

 

[F=MA]

By the way, Ford has been rewarded...at least by those in the investment community. Ford stock has increased by 350% since November of last year (ask me...I bought 25,000 shares at 1.87 and didn't have the guts to stick with my initial assessment that the government wasn't going to let them fail...ultimately selling at a $2700 loss). Ford currently has a market capitalization of over $22 billion.

Try finding a quote for GM (MTLQQ.PK)...less than sixty cents per share, and a market capitalization of just over $350 million for the world's largest automaker.

 

[05 Busa LE]

GM filed bankruptcy and it was discharged (completed). Ford didn't need a bailout because, just before the Wall Street crash, Ford (luckily) borrowed billions on its name--good timing.

From Bloomberg.com, just about a year ago:

"Ford has a cash cushion, spokesman Mark Truby said yesterday in response to S&P's report raising the prospect of another ratings cut. Ford's Borrowing[:] ``We were fortunate to go to the markets at the right time,'' Truby said, referring to $23.4 billion borrowed in late 2006 to help pay for shutting plants and cutting jobs while developing new models."

 

[05 Busa LE]

Link to Bloomberg.com article referenced above, from October 10, 2008: Bloomberg Article

 

[PDBusa]

Thats not "your" chevy its "our" chevy. Since we all have to pay for it we should all get to drive it!

But No thank you I'd rather walk! Supporting that company is just plain wrong.

Ohh and by the way, when you heads crack let me know I have fixed about 15 pair in the last 6 weeks.

I personally don't own "your" Chevy, I own my own. Paid for with my money, AND I happen to enjoy it as well.
I bought a Chevy because I get paid to drive a Ford. When a car, set up specifically for emergency services has gone out of service no less than 2 dozen times within the first 30,000 miles, there is a problem with the manufacturing of it. Not just one car, but several in the fleet. That is why I chose my Chevy with my money for my personal vehicle.

To say that a company who can't manage it's finances produces only junk is a bogus(no, not you Randy) statement. Was it maybe the financial sector of GMAC with it's assets in mortgages, credit cards, and credit that possibly became the straw that broke the camels back? I was unaware that Chevy had a problem with the heads, I do know that my Ford would warp exhaust manifolds every few thousand miles. Oh well, I guess time will tell.

You purchase and drive what you want, I will do the same. Your right to your personal opinion and taste is what makes this country great. But please, don't chatise others who exercise that same right and disagree with you.

 

[Lamb busa]

Please, oh please, won't the gov. stay out of the free enterprise system. This and now the health care atrocity they are trying to cram down our throats. Why won't they stop?

 

[Falcon-A]

Most every post you have made in this thread or others Falcon A, you attack any Org member that that doesnt agree with your views. I see you having a lot of emenies here in the future if you cant show the brotherhood here a little more respect. Your antics are unnessary and uncalled for. My conversation with you is over!

You have got to be kidding? Are you an adult?

I belong to other boards that we are able to speak our minds without worry about offending anyone. If this board isn't like that I'd be embarassed to be associated with one of the finest motorcycles ever built.

Grow a pair and debate, if I am wrong I will gladly admit and learn something from the discussion. I am not always right, and neither are you. The difference you are too insecure to discuss something you know you are wrong about.

Too bad if you don't want to be my friend, I don't need weak insecure babies as friends.

 

[Falcon-A]

I personally don't own "your" Chevy, I own my own. Paid for with my money, AND I happen to enjoy it as well.
I bought a Chevy because I get paid to drive a Ford. When a car, set up specifically for emergency services has gone out of service no less than 2 dozen times within the first 30,000 miles, there is a problem with the manufacturing of it. Not just one car, but several in the fleet. That is why I chose my Chevy with my money for my personal vehicle.

To say that a company who can't manage it's finances produces only junk is a bogus(no, not you Randy) statement. Was it maybe the financial sector of GMAC with it's assets in mortgages, credit cards, and credit that possibly became the straw that broke the camels back? I was unaware that Chevy had a problem with the heads, I do know that my Ford would warp exhaust manifolds every few thousand miles. Oh well, I guess time will tell.

You purchase and drive what you want, I will do the same. Your right to your personal opinion and taste is what makes this country great. But please, don't chatise others who exercise that same right and disagree with you.

I made that comment about owning your chevy because we as taxpayers all own a stake in that company now whether we like it or not.

I personally see a problem in buying a GM product now because you support a company that failed, and continues to fail only this time its on your and my buck.

I'm sorry to dis your new truck, its nothing personal I assure you, it is because I think you made a mistake in your purchase. I didn't say to buy a Ford, but it would have been a better truck sorry to break it to ya. Frame is better engine is more much more advanced and so on and so forth.

Toyota makes a nice drivin truck just doesn't have much frame.

Sorry to hear your service vehicles aren't reliable. I remember when you had fleets of Chevs. Heck not only were they constantly down with tranny failure, there was nothing easy to work on. Doin simple tune ups were a bear.
The Crowns came along and the Impala went in the dumpster.

Gm tried in vain to sell that body as a Caprice but it went over like a fart in church. Upside down bathtub on wheels

 

[ogre]

ford should bring over the models they've had in europe for years. focus RS, mondeo, falcon xr8, etc. get rid of the junk they sell here.

 

[Falcon-A]

ford should bring over the models they've had in europe for years. focus RS, mondeo, falcon xr8, etc. get rid of the junk they sell here.

Yeah they have some nice stuff for sure. How about that new SHO? I hear that is pretty damn sweet.

And the F150 Raptor is awesome! If I could swing one I'd have one of those in the 400 horse version in my garage. Then slap on the blower and it would be a "holy ****" ride for sure!

Some of the Stangs aren't too bad either. I think Ford is on track for now, but in the future it would be nice to see their over seas stuff too!

 

[Loomis]

GM = Government Motors...


GOOD LUCK

 

[skydivr]

I'm really not happy about having to bail out GM with my tax dollars (and, apparently, more tax dollars). GM lost their way. Their exec's greed; the UAW's greed and just plain ole being 'too big to fail' - mentality did them in. I have a Chevy truck and love it. Not sure I can bring myself to buy a Ford (just personal preference). Ford got lucky (if you want to call it that); they hocked everything they had in 2006 so didn't have to borrow from Uncle Sam. Their balance sheet looks like crap if you factor in their long term debt. If the auto market does not improve soon, they will also be in same shape as GM, just a little slower to it. What's going to happen to Ford if they finally get to that point, but the Goverment is no longer in the mood to loan money? The fat lady hasn't sung just yet....GM by going in first might end up with the whole enchalada...

 

[J'Man]

You have got to be kidding? Are you an adult?

I belong to other boards that we are able to speak our minds without worry about offending anyone. If this board isn't like that I'd be embarassed to be associated with one of the finest motorcycles ever built.

Grow a pair and debate, if I am wrong I will gladly admit and learn something from the discussion. I am not always right, and neither are you. The difference you are too insecure to discuss something you know you are wrong about.

Too bad if you don't want to be my friend, I don't need weak insecure babies as friends.

Dude, you proved the point he was making. No need to be such an arse to people that don't agree with you. No offense, but if you're embarrased that we're civil here feel free to leave.

 

[UncleSteve]

The UAW will destroy itself and go the way of the dinosaur. Its a shame, what started out with great intentions for the hard working American ... is self destructing. Greed and poor leadership... probably big contributing factors.

 

[J'Man]

The UAW will destroy itself and go the way of the dinosaur. Its a shame, what started out with great intentions for the hard working American ... is self destructing. Greed and poor leadership... probably big contributing factors.

So true!!!

 

[proud dad]

The UAW will destroy itself and go the way of the dinosaur. Its a shame, what started out with great intentions for the hard working American ... is self destructing. Greed and poor leadership... probably big contributing factors.

stop using common sense some here won't get it