History Lesson

[warbrown]

Man, It doesn't matter to me what way you lean politically......we all have, and are entitled to our own opinions, but when it comes to facts, that is where I draw the line!


Without a doubt; Black/silver is the fastest!

I was hoping I wouldn't have to pull this out again, but if it's proof you want, here you go:

Pumpkins rule!

 

[mjn]

Man, It doesn't matter to me what way you lean politically......we all have, and are entitled to our own opinions, but when it comes to facts, that is where I draw the line!


Without a doubt;  Black/silver is the fastest!

I was hoping I wouldn't have to pull this out again, but if it's proof you want, here you go:

Pumpkins rule!

Yea, but what they didn't tell ya is that they switched the bodywork on that one.....it used to be black and silver!

 

[justintime2]

Man, It doesn't matter to me what way you lean politically......we all have, and are entitled to our own opinions, but when it comes to facts, that is where I draw the line!


Without a doubt;  Black/silver is the fastest!

I was hoping I wouldn't have to pull this out again, but if it's proof you want, here you go:

Pumpkins rule!

That's funny that the 12 isn't even listed in their chart of fastest bikes.

 

[Mr Brown]

Man, It doesn't matter to me what way you lean politically......we all have, and are entitled to our own opinions, but when it comes to facts, that is where I draw the line!


Without a doubt;  Black/silver is the fastest!

I was hoping I wouldn't have to pull this out again, but if it's proof you want, here you go:

Pumpkins rule!

That's funny that the 12 isn't even listed in their chart of fastest bikes.

Prolly because it hadn't been released yet, genius. Hence the use of the 11 as kaws representative. You just really hate the 12 don't you?

 

[justintime2]

I don't need to elaborate on your level of class envy, your second post is ripe with your discontent for those who have more than you, however they got it. Put your own capital on the line, take your own risks, and come up with your own idea or quite hating those that do and go work for them.

As far as the election goes the majority of the country did vote for Bush. Those that choose not to vote have no voice in the discussion, nor should they. So is there another majority, beside the one that showed up and voted for Bush, that counts in your mind? This is a liberal's attempt to pretend the election didn't turn out the way it actually did.

And last but not least. The majority of taxes in this country are paid for by the "rich" as you call them. And as much as it may pain you to know, Bush's tax cuts actually increased the % they pay compared to the middle and lower classes.

I don't have a clue who you are as this is just a motorcycle website. However if you are going to post a political point of view that I feel is non-sense, then I feel the need to counter it with my own version of common sense. The same common sense tells me I probably have my assessment of your views on this one pretty close. Don't be so surprised that someone would counter your post bashing rich people.

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I have no envy for anyone who has more or less than I do. I have quite a comfortable life, my family have all we need, and quite a bit of what we want. I work hard to ensure this will contiue to be the case.
Obviously, you have allowed your dislike of me to prevent you from separating what I actually said from what you thought I meant. Please read carefully this time. I figured that you wouldn't understand my election statement, allow me to clarify: George Bush was elected president by the majority of people that voted. This does not mean that the majority of people in this country think he 's the best man for the job, it simply means that more people that voted chose him. Many potential voters chose not to vote at all because they realized after the previoius election that the popular vote means nothing. You say that just bacause people who felt neither choice presented to them was the correct one they don't have the right to complain? Of course they do, that's what this country is all about. Were you asleep through governmaent class? We have the right to complain about whatever we want, as long as it done in the correct manner. I am not disputing the validity of the election results, just pointing out that not everyone is content with being force fed the religious values that seem to be becoming a disturbing part of our government. There is nothing wrong with these values, in fact they coincide directly with my own on many occasions, I just believe that the government has no business applying them.
The majority of taxes are not paid by the rich, they are paid by the middle class, which is why it is shrinking. If you think otherwise, you aren't paying attention. it makes no difference what % the administration claims they pay, 80% of nothing or 40% of nothing is still nothing. If you are naive enough to think that major corporations and the individuals who benefit from them haven't figured out how to hide their money, I'd love to sell you a bridge.
You don't have a clue, the fact that you see someone's opinion that differs with your own as nonsense tells me a lot about you. If you consider spouting political views as truth common sense, well there's not much to say in reply to that, it pretty well says it all. You can't tell the difference between the opinions and the person, and I pity you for that.
In conclusion, I offer a bumper sticker that I saw once:
"A working person that votes republican is like a chicken that votes for Colonel Sanders"
Aren't you a Fireman? A repectable and honorable profession to be sure, but hardly one at which you will get rich.

1. I don't dislike you, I disagree with your opinion/views and will argue passionately against them.

2. Don't Vote don't bittch. No people who choose not to vote do not count. They give up that right by not excercising their's. People died giving them what they casually disregard. If you don't like the candidates, write one in.

3. The popular vote does'nt elect Presidents so there is little for anyone to be upset about when it didn't in 2000.

4. The top 2% of taxpayers pay 50% of the tax burden in this country. That my friend is where the disparity is. They should pay more than the rest, but not all. What portion of a wealthy persons money do you feel your entitled too?

5. The last time I checked Christianity was being assaulted by Athiasts and the ACLU everyday, not another religion, only this one. Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian Ethics and that is a fact. Public schools can hand out books that says it's OK to have two mommy's or two daddy's but cannot say the pledge of allegience. "In God We Trust" is suddenly too offensive to be on our money and any symbol that remotely resembles something that could be considered christian is being removed. There is nothing in the Constitution that says there is no such thing as any religion in the government, this was created by activist courts. The constitution prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Our founding fathers were religious and no where in the constitution did they write to exclude it. I am not religious one way or the other for the most part but do recognize our Countries history and that it should stay.

6. I will re-read my posts but believe I  attacked your positions, not you personnaly.

7. Yes I am a Firefighter, a volunteer FF. I respond to more calls and work more hours than the career FF's, about double to be exact. Last year I responded to 444 calls and worked over 200 12hr shifts, on top of a regular job. I will certainly not be getting wealthy from this profession and do not wish to do it as a careeer, I am happy with my role as volunteer. I learned long ago not to do what you love for a living, it can suck the enjoyment out of it. My past had me at a six figure plus income and I gave up a large portion of my life in exchange for it. No love for the rich and no hate for them either.

 

[justintime2]

Man, It doesn't matter to me what way you lean politically......we all have, and are entitled to our own opinions, but when it comes to facts, that is where I draw the line!


Without a doubt;  Black/silver is the fastest!

I was hoping I wouldn't have to pull this out again, but if it's proof you want, here you go:

Pumpkins rule!

That's funny that the 12 isn't even listed in their chart of fastest bikes.

Prolly because it hadn't been released yet, genius. Hence the use of the 11 as kaws representative. You just really hate the 12 don't you?

Then they shouldn't be using a 2003 model Busa for their picture. This indicates a current comparison, not an old one. It wasn't in the Guiness Book of World Records just once and has been since the 12 was produced, hence the 2003 Pumpkin orange aniverssary model.

Oh sorry, Genious! No wonder you think the middle class pay all the taxes.

 

[mjn]

Well said.

 

[Mr Brown]

1. I don't dislike you, I disagree with your opinion/views and will argue passionately against them.

2. Don't Vote don't bittch. No people who choose not to vote do not count. They give up that right by not excercising their's. People died giving them what they casually disregard. If you don't like the candidates, write one in.

3. The popular vote does'nt elect Presidents so there is little for anyone to be upset about when it didn't in 2000.

4. The top 2% of taxpayers pay 50% of the tax burden in this country. That my friend is where the disparity is. They should pay more than the rest, but not all. What portion of a wealthy persons money do you feel your entitled too?

5. The last time I checked Christianity was being assaulted by Athiasts and the ACLU everyday, not another religion, only this one. Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian Ethics and that is a fact. Public schools can hand out books that says it's OK to have two mommy's or two daddy's but cannot say the pledge of allegience. "In God We Trust" is suddenly too offensive to be on our money and any symbol that remotely resembles something that could be considered christian is being removed. There is nothing in the Constitution that says there is no such thing as any religion in the government, this was created by activist courts. The constitution prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Our founding fathers were religious and no where in the constitution did they write to exclude it. I am not religious one way or the other for the most part but do recognize our Countries history and that it should stay.

6. I will re-read my posts but believe I  attacked your positions, not you personnaly.

7. Yes I am a Firefighter, a volunteer FF. I respond to more calls and work more hours than the career FF's, about double to be exact. Last year I responded to 444 calls and worked over 200 12hr shifts, on top of a regular job. I will certainly not be getting wealthy from this profession and do not wish to do it as a careeer, I am happy with my role as volunteer. I learned long ago not to do what you love for a living, it can suck the enjoyment out of it. My past had me at a six figure plus income and I gave up a large portion of my life in exchange for it. No love for the rich and no hate for them either.

Disagreement in views is appreciated and encouraged, the problem is many people believe blindly in one thing, refusing to accept the validity of a differing position, something which is completely separate from agreeing with it.
The assumption that the responsibility to vote is casually discarded is wrong, I think that many of the people who died to ensure these rights for us would be disgusted by the choices we have.
Obviously the popular vote never has elected the president, but I believe that conservatives would have raised hell if Kerry had been elected this last time around, don't you? Point being that the losers will always find faults in the system, no matter which side loses.
The top 2% control what, 95% of the assets in this country? Of course they should bear the heavier load of taxes. Why are so many people who fit this description so against a flat tax? That would be the fairest way to do it. Individuals, corporations, all revenue generated taxed at a flat rate, across the board.
our country was not founded on Judeo-Christian ethics, it was founded by people who had those ethics personally, but it was designed so that the government should not interfere with people's choices of religion. That is why the founding fathers came here, for the freedom to practice the religion the government in England was not allowing them. Yours is a common mistake, but a mistake none the less.The founding fathers did not exclude religion, but neither did they mandate one, or any at all for that matter.
You have obvious dislike for me, you assume hatred where there is none, ridicule opinions that I offer, interpret my words without further questioning, etc. I could not care less whether you like me or not, but your lack of respect for differing opinions is indicative of your disdain.
I admire your enthusiasm for firefighting, I'm glad the people of the community you serve can count on you to help. I don't see how you managed to work a regular job volunteering 12 hours a day 5 days a week, but I guess you don't sleep.......

 

[Mr Brown]

Then they shouldn't be using a 2003 model Busa for their picture. This indicates a current comparison, not an old one. It wasn't in the Guiness Book of World Records just once and has been since the 12 was produced, hence the 2003 Pumpkin orange aniverssary model.

Oh sorry, Genious! No wonder you think the middle class pay all the taxes.

So now you're telling me that a ZX-11 is faster than a 12? If the 12 was available and runs 186, (which is what the limited ones do) why would they only include a ZX-11 for comparison? I'm not interested in having the whole 12/Busa debate again, but surely even a terminal Busa devotee such as yourself can see the point here. Maybe you are applying your political blinkers to this debate too. It's funny that people honestly think that just because THEY don't agree with something it doesn't exist. A 2003 12 will run 186mph, just like the great pumpkin will. the Busa is in the Guinness book because all bikes after 00 are limited, so until that changes no stock bikes will beat that record. It's still the fastest production bike ever, so it will continue to be listed that way until the limiter is dropped.

 

[justintime2]

1. I don't dislike you, I disagree with your opinion/views and will argue passionately against them.

2. Don't Vote don't bittch. No people who choose not to vote do not count. They give up that right by not excercising their's. People died giving them what they casually disregard. If you don't like the candidates, write one in.

3. The popular vote does'nt elect Presidents so there is little for anyone to be upset about when it didn't in 2000.

4. The top 2% of taxpayers pay 50% of the tax burden in this country. That my friend is where the disparity is. They should pay more than the rest, but not all. What portion of a wealthy persons money do you feel your entitled too?

5. The last time I checked Christianity was being assaulted by Athiasts and the ACLU everyday, not another religion, only this one. Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian Ethics and that is a fact. Public schools can hand out books that says it's OK to have two mommy's or two daddy's but cannot say the pledge of allegience. "In God We Trust" is suddenly too offensive to be on our money and any symbol that remotely resembles something that could be considered christian is being removed. There is nothing in the Constitution that says there is no such thing as any religion in the government, this was created by activist courts. The constitution prohibits the government from establishing a religion. Our founding fathers were religious and no where in the constitution did they write to exclude it. I am not religious one way or the other for the most part but do recognize our Countries history and that it should stay.

6. I will re-read my posts but believe I  attacked your positions, not you personnaly.

7. Yes I am a Firefighter, a volunteer FF. I respond to more calls and work more hours than the career FF's, about double to be exact. Last year I responded to 444 calls and worked over 200 12hr shifts, on top of a regular job. I will certainly not be getting wealthy from this profession and do not wish to do it as a careeer, I am happy with my role as volunteer. I learned long ago not to do what you love for a living, it can suck the enjoyment out of it. My past had me at a six figure plus income and I gave up a large portion of my life in exchange for it. No love for the rich and no hate for them either.

Disagreement in views is appreciated and encouraged, the problem is many people believe blindly in one thing, refusing to accept the validity of a differing position, something which is completely separate from agreeing with it.
The assumption that the responsibility to vote is casually discarded is wrong, I think that many of the people who died to ensure these rights for us would be disgusted by the choices we have.
Obviously the popular vote never has elected the president, but I believe that conservatives would have raised hell if Kerry had been elected this last time around, don't you? Point being that the losers will always find faults in the system, no matter which side loses.
The top 2% control what, 95% of the assets in this country? Of course they should bear the heavier load of taxes. Why are so many people who fit this description so against a flat tax? That would be the fairest way to do it. Individuals, corporations, all revenue generated taxed at a flat rate, across the board.
our country was not founded on Judeo-Christian ethics, it was founded by people who had those ethics personally, but it was designed so that the government should not interfere with people's choices of religion. That is why the founding fathers came here, for the freedom to practice the religion the government in England was not allowing them. Yours is a common mistake, but a mistake none the less.The founding fathers did not exclude religion, but neither did they mandate one, or any at all for that matter.
You have obvious dislike for me, you assume hatred where there is none, ridicule opinions that I offer, interpret my words without further questioning, etc. I could not care less whether you like me or not, but your lack of respect for differing opinions is indicative of your disdain.
I admire your enthusiasm for firefighting, I'm glad the people of the community you serve can count on you to help. I don't see how you managed to work a regular job volunteering 12 hours a day 5 days a week, but I guess you don't sleep.......

Believing there is a concrete difference between right and wrong on certain issues is called conviction, core value or the like. If I think an alternative position to mine is wrong I will not recognize it's "validity" as a matter of fact I will argue against it, that's believing in your values. That doesn't mean I disrespect you for having a different view, I just believe it is wrong and am not going to pretend otherwise just so no ones feeling are hurt. Your statements where bomb throwing and I responded to that.

I think our founding fathers would be disgusterd alright, not with the political choices we have but rather a media that hates conservatives and tears down America with every broadcast it can make. With Europeans who have forgotten the sacrifices our country has made in ensuring their freedom's too. For the activism in toaday's courts where anything goes, as long as it is liberal.

Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian philososhy and to deny that tells me you don't have much more than "talking points" when it comes to our history. Why do you think "In God We Trust" is on our money, invoked during the presidents inauguration, the swearing in of the supreme court, congress, and most judicial proceedings? The list could go on and on but I guess that could be another thread all by itself.

As stated previously I don't dislike you, I disagree with your positions and have simply countered what I think is a rediculous assumption that Entrepenuers or rich people are greedy, money grubbing thieves that rape everyone of anything they can, or something close to that as you yourself put it.

And yes my life is constantly without sleep which in most cases means doing my normal job and then staying at the firehouse for the night and responding to calls. I have begun to pullback on my time spent in the FF role as my daughter has sacrificed as much as I have. This also does not include the time when I am dispatched for the Dive Rescue Team. Don't thank me, thank the next volunteer or FF you come across, 90% of them are volunteers doing the same thing.

 

[justintime2]

One additional note as you think you are so disliked by me. I am certain that if we met in person I would like you as I do most people I meet. I am equally certain I would debate your views as passionately if you brought them up.

 

[Mr Brown]

Believing there is a concrete difference between right and wrong on certain issues is called conviction, core value or the like. If I think an alternative position to mine is wrong I will not recognize it's "validity" as a matter of fact I will argue against it, that's believing in your values. That doesn't mean I disrespect you for having a different view, I just believe it is wrong and am not going to pretend otherwise just so no ones feeling are hurt. Your statements where bomb throwing and I responded to that.

I think our founding fathers would be disgusterd alright, not with the political choices we have but rather a media that hates conservatives and tears down America with every broadcast it can make. With Europeans who have forgotten the sacrifices our country has made in ensuring their freedom's too. For the activism in toaday's courts where anything goes, as long as it is liberal.

Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian philososhy and to deny that tells me you don't have much more than "talking points" when it comes to our history. Why do you think "In God We Trust" is on our money, invoked during the presidents inauguration, the swearing in of the supreme court, congress, and most judicial proceedings? The list could go on and on but I guess that could be another thread all by itself.

As stated previously I don't dislike you, I disagree with your positions and have simply countered what I think is a rediculous assumption that Entrepenuers or rich people are greedy, money grubbing thieves that rape everyone of anything they can, or something close to that as you yourself put it.

And yes my life is constantly without sleep which in most cases means doing my normal job and then staying at the firehouse for the night and responding to calls. I have begun to pullback on my time spent in the FF role as my daughter has sacrificed as much as I have. This also does not include the time when I am dispatched for the Dive Rescue Team. Don't thank me, thank the next volunteer or FF you come across, 90% of them are volunteers doing the same thing.

Okay, believing what is right for you and trying to make everyone else that thinks differently subject to your way of thinking is not conviction, it's facism.
Living your life as you please, especially if it's different from the establishment is the American way.
You can not have a discussion between two differing opinions if one party refuses to accept the validity of the others' position. If you can't see the difference between thinking an opinion is wrong and thinking that the person who holds this opinion is wrong, then there is no point in further discussion.
Read some more history. This country was not founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, we've had this argument in a different thread, you believe what you want. It was pointed out to you where this religious terminology was added, yet you continue to argue. Just because these things are included now, doesn't mean that it's always been that way.
It's not an assumption that the invention of labor as a resources cause disparity an artificially inflates some peoples wealth at the expense of others, it's a fact. How much money are the stock holders of Halliburton making on this war?

 

[Relsek]

Believing there is a concrete difference between right and wrong on certain issues is called conviction, core value or the like. If I think an alternative position to mine is wrong I will not recognize it's "validity" as a matter of fact I will argue against it, that's believing in your values. That doesn't mean I disrespect you for having a different view, I just believe it is wrong and am not going to pretend otherwise just so no ones feeling are hurt. Your statements where bomb throwing and I responded to that.

I think our founding fathers would be disgusterd alright, not with the political choices we have but rather a media that hates conservatives and tears down America with every broadcast it can make. With Europeans who have forgotten the sacrifices our country has made in ensuring their freedom's too. For the activism in toaday's courts where anything goes, as long as it is liberal.

Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian philososhy and to deny that tells me you don't have much more than "talking points" when it comes to our history. Why do you think "In God We Trust" is on our money, invoked during the presidents inauguration, the swearing in of the supreme court, congress, and most judicial proceedings? The list could go on and on but I guess that could be another thread all by itself.

As stated previously I don't dislike you, I disagree with your positions and have simply countered what I think is a rediculous assumption that Entrepenuers or rich people are greedy, money grubbing thieves that rape everyone of anything they can, or something close to that as you yourself put it.

And yes my life is constantly without sleep which in most cases means doing my normal job and then staying at the firehouse for the night and responding to calls. I have begun to pullback on my time spent in the FF role as my daughter has sacrificed as much as I have. This also does not include the time when I am dispatched for the Dive Rescue Team. Don't thank me, thank the next volunteer or FF you come across, 90% of them are volunteers doing the same thing.

Okay, believing what is right for you and trying to make everyone else that thinks differently subject to your way of thinking is not conviction, it's facism.
Living your life as you please, especially if it's different from the establishment is the American way.
You can not have a discussion between two differing opinions if one party refuses to accept the validity of the others' position. If you can't see the difference between thinking an opinion is wrong and thinking that the person who holds this opinion is wrong, then there is no point in further discussion.
Read some more history. This country was not founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, we've had this argument in a different thread, you believe what you want. It was pointed out to you where this religious terminology was added, yet you continue to argue. Just because these things are included now, doesn't mean that it's always been that way.
It's not an assumption that the invention of labor as a resources cause disparity an artificially inflates some peoples wealth at the expense of others, it's a fact. How much money are the stock holders of Halliburton making on this war?

Mr. Brown and Random Nickname, it is time that both of you read the first few books of the Bible or the Torah. If you will read and understand, you will find that the laws of this country along with the judicial system are based in part on the system set up in the bible. It's not an exact replica but you can see it's roots there.

I don't see why some people are trying to deny that fact.
You can say all you want that it isn't, but it won't change the fact that it is.

Some people these days think fact, depends on what one thinks, fact has nothing to do with what you think, fact is fact, fiction is fiction, black is black, white is white, you thinking black is white, white is black, fact is fiction or fiction is fact has no bearing on the truth.

I'm sure you will respond before you read like I asked you to, prove me wrong, It will take a few days to read the first five books of the bible again, so I check back with you next week.

Kevin

 

[busababe9]

ok I changed my mind

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[Mr Brown]

Mr. Brown and Random Nickname, it is time that both of you read the first few books of the Bible or the Torah. If you will read and understand, you will find that the laws of this country along with the judicial system are based in part on the system set up in the bible. It's not an exact replica but you can see it's roots there.

  I don't see why some people are trying to deny that fact.
You can say all you want that it isn't, but it won't change the fact that it is.

  Some people these days think fact, depends on what one thinks, fact has nothing to do with what you think, fact is fact, fiction is fiction, black is black, white is white, you thinking black is white, white is black, fact is fiction or fiction is fact has no bearing on the truth.
 
 I'm sure you will respond before you read like I asked you to, prove me wrong, It will take a few days to read the first five books of the bible again, so I check back with you next week.

Kevin

Kevin,
I have read, many times the first 5, and all the following books of the Bible. I haven't read the Torah because I can't read Hebrew. I have discussed it at great length with a noted scholar on Old Testament Theology, who also happens to be my father.The laws that are discussed within are not original to the these scriptures. They are based on Hammurabi's Code http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM
which predates Judaism, and thus Christianity, by over a thousand years. I agree that the laws of our country are based on the principles found in Judeo-christian teachings, but thes in turn reflect an even older sense of order. People should not think that the government has the right to enforce a distinctly Christian way of life on those who do not subscribe to it simply because some of the laws we have are similar to ones set forth in the bible.
Stating that "Fact is fact, fiction is fiction, etc" places you on shaky ground. the implication there is that you have access to the "Truth" What places you at such a point of advantage? How do you arrive at the conclusion that what YOU hold to be true really is, and those of us that differ with you are wrong? I hold that what I believe works for me, I would not presume to think that, within reason of course, I should force anyone to think like me. I don't proclaim to know the "Truth", I just read, ask questions, listen to the answers and find my way in the world. I am in fact quite conservative, however I firmly believe in the rights of other adults to live their lives as they please.



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[Relsek]

Mr. Brown and Random Nickname, it is time that both of you read the first few books of the Bible or the Torah. If you will read and understand, you will find that the laws of this country along with the judicial system are based in part on the system set up in the bible. It's not an exact replica but you can see it's roots there.

  I don't see why some people are trying to deny that fact.
You can say all you want that it isn't, but it won't change the fact that it is.

  Some people these days think fact, depends on what one thinks, fact has nothing to do with what you think, fact is fact, fiction is fiction, black is black, white is white, you thinking black is white, white is black, fact is fiction or fiction is fact has no bearing on the truth.
 
 I'm sure you will respond before you read like I asked you to, prove me wrong, It will take a few days to read the first five books of the bible again, so I check back with you next week.

Kevin

Kevin,
I have read, many times the first 5, and all the following books of the Bible. I haven't read the Torah because I can't read Hebrew. I have discussed it at great length with a noted scholar on Old Testament Theology, who also happens to be my father.The laws that are discussed within are not original to the these scriptures. They are based on Hammurabi's Code http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM
which predates Judaism, and thus Christianity, by over a thousand years. I agree that the laws of our country are based on the principles found in Judeo-christian teachings, but thes in turn reflect an even older sense of order. People should not think that the government has the right to enforce a distinctly Christian way of life on those who do not subscribe to it simply because some of the laws we have are similar to ones set forth in the bible.
Stating that "Fact is fact, fiction is fiction, etc" places you on shaky ground. the implication there is that you have access to the "Truth" What places you at such a point of advantage? How do you arrive at the conclusion that what YOU hold to be true really is, and those of us that differ with you are wrong? I hold that what I believe works for me, I would not presume to think that, within reason of course, I should force anyone to think like me. I don't proclaim to know the "Truth", I just read, ask questions, listen to the answers and find my way in the world. I am in fact quite conservative, however I firmly believe in the rights of other adults to live their lives as they please.

The truth is truth thing has nothing to do with what I believe or what you believe, I'm trying to say that truth does not depend on our beliefs at all. We get into this discussion all the time when talking about religion. Some believe there are many ways to heaven, some believe it's just a myth.

Let's take Christianity for example. The Bible explains salvation through Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, and trusting in him alone for eternal life. If I believe this, it doesn't make it true, if I don't believe it, it doesn't make it false. It is either true or false, no matter what I believe.

I guess my point is that arguing about what we think or believe is a waste if we haven't done research enough to find out the truth.
Does that make any sense?

 

[Mr Brown]

The truth is truth thing has nothing to do with what I believe or what you believe, I'm trying to say that truth does not depend on our beliefs at all. We get into this discussion all the time when talking about religion. Some believe there are many ways to heaven, some believe it's just a myth.

Let's take Christianity for example. The Bible explains salvation through Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, and trusting in him alone for eternal life. If I believe this, it doesn't make it true, if I don't believe it, it doesn't make it false. It is either true or false, no matter what I believe.

 I guess my point is that arguing about what we think or believe is a waste if we haven't done research enough to find out the truth.
 Does that make any sense?  

It makes sense, but the example you use isn't a good one. A "Truth" has to be provable. An example would be that fire burns paper. It easily tested, and can not be denied. Christianity requires faith, which by definition can not be proven. It therefore has to remain a belief, so whether it's true or not is also subject to interpretation. You and I may believe that it's true, but the existence of God, whatever you choose to call him, can not be proven, thus it cannot be what I consider a "Truth". A belief doesn't have to be provable, actually when it becomes that way it is no longer a belief, it becomes a fact,(or fiction if it's disprovable).
Arguing is pointless, I agree, but a spirited discussion with respect and acknowledgement of both sides' argument is very enjoyable. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, it just troubles me when inteligent people become so fixated on what they believe that they refuse to entertain the possibility of a different point of view.
your final stsement implies that there is a "Truth" out there somewhere that we have yet to find. I disagree with that in this instance, I think that if the existence of God is proven/disproven, mankind will have scienced ourselves into oblivion.

 

[justintime2]

Believing there is a concrete difference between right and wrong on certain issues is called conviction, core value or the like. If I think an alternative position to mine is wrong I will not recognize it's "validity" as a matter of fact I will argue against it, that's believing in your values. That doesn't mean I disrespect you for having a different view, I just believe it is wrong and am not going to pretend otherwise just so no ones feeling are hurt. Your statements where bomb throwing and I responded to that.

I think our founding fathers would be disgusterd alright, not with the political choices we have but rather a media that hates conservatives and tears down America with every broadcast it can make. With Europeans who have forgotten the sacrifices our country has made in ensuring their freedom's too. For the activism in toaday's courts where anything goes, as long as it is liberal.

Our country was founded on Jewdeo Christian philososhy and to deny that tells me you don't have much more than "talking points" when it comes to our history. Why do you think "In God We Trust" is on our money, invoked during the presidents inauguration, the swearing in of the supreme court, congress, and most judicial proceedings? The list could go on and on but I guess that could be another thread all by itself.

As stated previously I don't dislike you, I disagree with your positions and have simply countered what I think is a rediculous assumption that Entrepenuers or rich people are greedy, money grubbing thieves that rape everyone of anything they can, or something close to that as you yourself put it.

And yes my life is constantly without sleep which in most cases means doing my normal job and then staying at the firehouse for the night and responding to calls. I have begun to pullback on my time spent in the FF role as my daughter has sacrificed as much as I have. This also does not include the time when I am dispatched for the Dive Rescue Team. Don't thank me, thank the next volunteer or FF you come across, 90% of them are volunteers doing the same thing.

Okay, believing what is right for you and trying to make everyone else that thinks differently subject to your way of thinking is not conviction, it's facism.
Living your life as you please, especially if it's different from the establishment is the American way.
You can not have a discussion between two differing opinions if one party refuses to accept the validity of the others' position. If you can't see the difference between thinking an opinion is wrong and thinking that the person who holds this opinion is wrong, then there is no point in further discussion.
Read some more history. This country was not founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, we've had this argument in a different thread, you believe what you want. It was pointed out to you where this religious terminology was added, yet you continue to argue. Just because these things are included now, doesn't mean that it's always been that way.
It's not an assumption that the invention of labor as a resources cause disparity an artificially inflates some peoples wealth at the expense of others, it's a fact. How much money are the stock holders of Halliburton making on this war?

At what point did I say everyone else has to be subject to my way of thinking? Missed that one I guess, my point was that you were just plain wrong. If I hadn't spelled it out clearly enough before, let this stand as my proclimation of the same, YOUR WRONG!

How could I miss that this could all boil down to Haliburton. Guess what, there is no other company in the world capable of the infrastructure rebuilding than Haliburton and yes, #### Cheney divested his interests in the company before becoming the VP candidate.

You always know when a liberal is loosing an argument, they turn to Haliburton.

 

[justintime2]

I am in fact quite conservative, however I firmly believe in the rights of other adults to live their lives as they please.

This statement I just cannot believe in light of the statements you have made. What conservative values do you hold? I haven't seen you describe any so far.

I guess all people can "live their lives as they please" with the exception of the greedy conservatrives trying to rape everyone of there rights, resources and life in general.

 

[Relsek]

Haliburton.

I just realized this, doesn't haliburton sound like something you might pick up for lunch at a carnival, or am I just tired?

Kev