History Lesson

[Mr Brown]

At what point did I say everyone else has to be subject to my way of thinking? Missed that one I guess, my point was that you were just plain wrong. If I hadn't spelled it out clearly enough before, let this stand as my proclimation of the same, YOUR WRONG!

How could I miss that this could all boil down to Haliburton. Guess what, there is no other company in the world capable of the infrastructure rebuilding than Haliburton and yes, #### Cheney divested his interests in the company before becoming the VP candidate.

You always know when a liberal is loosing an argument, they turn to Haliburton.

The implication in your saying that my way of thinking is wrong is that yours is right, and I should agree with you. Newsflash, this is America, and opinions can't be wrong.
I used Halliburton as an example, but they are a symbol of what is wrong with the corporate/government love affair that exists in this country. Of course Halliburton can rebuild a countries infrastructure, I just think it's repulsive that we started a war to prove it.
Just to be clear, Cheney sold his interests in Halliburton to his WIFE, if you consider that divestment, then your ostrich-like attitude toward things is even more ridiculous than I thought.
FYI, I'm not really a liberal, more a moderate, but conservatives like you who don't even realize that the party they so blindly follow fu*ks them at every turn makes me glad that I'm considered one.

 

[mjn]

Haliburton.

I just realized this, doesn't haliburton sound like something you might pick up for lunch at a carnival, or am I just tired?

Kev

no, I just had some last week.....it was great.


I think,,,

 

[Mr Brown]

I am in fact quite conservative, however I firmly believe in the rights of other adults to live their lives as they please.

This statement I just cannot believe in light of the statements you have made. What conservative values do you hold? I haven't seen you describe any so far.

I guess all people can "live their lives as they please" with the exception of the greedy conservatrives trying to rape everyone of there rights, resources and life in general.

I believe in Christian values, think that the welfare state promotes nothing more than dependency on itself, and above all don't believe that the government should meddle in personal affairs of its citizens. The people I despise are those who take advantage of the less fortunate, in order to continue to fuel their thirst for more than they could possibly use in 10 lifetimes. So in answer to your last comment, yeah, pretty much.



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[Mr Brown]

Haliburton.

I just realized this, doesn't haliburton sound like something you might pick up for lunch at a carnival, or am I just tired?

Kev

Yeah its the stuff that smells good, but makes you sick to your stomach once you realize what's really in it.

 

[Mr Brown]

Justin, Kev and MJN, I'm going to bed or I'll never get laid again, at least that's what the old lady is telling me. Can we pick it up again tomorrow?

 

[mjn]

Justin, Kev and MJN, I'm going to bed or I'll never get laid again, at least that's what the old lady is telling me. Can we pick it up again tomorrow?

Dude, there are some things that are just more important......and you found it.

I'm off for 2 days, gonna go ride.

I'll jump back in Thursday.

 

[justintime2]

I believe in Christian values, think that the welfare state promotes nothing more than dependency on itself, and above all don't believe that the government should meddle in personal affairs of its citizens.

Since we agree on these points, go buy a lottery ticket because this could be considered rare, this is a positive point to end on. I am done with this thread and by all means, go get some while you can, Haliburton may legislate their way into your bedroom and put an end to all the naughty behavior.

 

[Relsek]

A "Truth" has to be provable. An example would be that fire burns paper. It easily tested, and can not be denied. Christianity requires faith, which by definition can not be proven. It therefore has to remain a belief, so whether it's true or not  is also subject to interpretation. You and I may believe that it's true, but the existence of God, whatever you choose to call him, can not be proven, thus it cannot be what I consider a "Truth".

To whom does it need to be proven, if something has been proven to me and not to you, or to you and not to me, does it become truth, or does everyone have to have it proven to them before it becomes truth?

Let's take the fire burning paper, you see it burn, I see it burn, but MJN didn't see it and doesn't yet believe it. Is it a fact that fire burns paper even though it hasn't been proven to MJN or does it become a myth again once he comes on the scene?

Please splain this to me.

Kev

 

[Mr Brown]

A "Truth" has to be provable. An example would be that fire burns paper. It easily tested, and can not be denied. Christianity requires faith, which by definition can not be proven. It therefore has to remain a belief, so whether it's true or not  is also subject to interpretation. You and I may believe that it's true, but the existence of God, whatever you choose to call him, can not be proven, thus it cannot be what I consider a "Truth".

To whom does it need to be proven, if something has been proven to me and not to you, or to you and not to me, does it become truth, or does everyone have to have it proven to them before it becomes truth?

  Let's take the fire burning paper, you see it burn, I see it burn, but MJN didn't see it and doesn't yet believe it. Is it a fact that fire burns paper even though it hasn't been proven to MJN or does it become a myth again once he comes on the scene?

Please splain this to me.

Kev

It has to be quantifiable. in other words, given the same circumstances, it has to be repeatable. If MJN doesn't see it burn, he can get the same ingredients, perform the same acts and will achieve the same result. I'm sure that this isn't the scientific definition of proof, but it'll do.
Hope this helps.....

 

[Relsek]

A "Truth" has to be provable. An example would be that fire burns paper. It easily tested, and can not be denied. Christianity requires faith, which by definition can not be proven. It therefore has to remain a belief, so whether it's true or not  is also subject to interpretation. You and I may believe that it's true, but the existence of God, whatever you choose to call him, can not be proven, thus it cannot be what I consider a "Truth".

To whom does it need to be proven, if something has been proven to me and not to you, or to you and not to me, does it become truth, or does everyone have to have it proven to them before it becomes truth?

  Let's take the fire burning paper, you see it burn, I see it burn, but MJN didn't see it and doesn't yet believe it. Is it a fact that fire burns paper even though it hasn't been proven to MJN or does it become a myth again once he comes on the scene?

Please splain this to me.

Kev

It has to be quantifiable. in other words, given the same circumstances, it has to be repeatable. If MJN doesn't see it burn, he can get the same ingredients, perform the same acts and will achieve the same result. I'm sure that this isn't the scientific definition of proof, but it'll do.
Hope this helps.....

Thanks, now how about proving the wind. You can see it's effects but can't actually see it, how do you prove it?

 

[Mr Brown]

Thanks, now how about proving the wind. You can see it's effects but can't actually see it, how do you prove it?

What aspect of the wind are you trying to prove?

 

[Relsek]

Thanks, now how about proving the wind. You can see it's effects but can't actually see it, how do you prove it?

What aspect of the wind are you trying to prove?

That it exists.

 

[Mr Brown]

Thanks, now how about proving the wind. You can see it's effects but can't actually see it, how do you prove it?

What aspect of the wind are you trying to prove?

That it exists.

You can prove its existence by setting up a siuation where air is heated and rises, cooled and falls. If you control every aspect of it, i.e. make it a lab experiment you would be able to repeat the results whenever you wished. That is all the wind is, air moving to fill the void created by heating and rising, or falling and cooling.

 

[Relsek]

Thanks, now how about proving the wind. You can see it's effects but can't actually see it, how do you prove it?

What aspect of the wind are you trying to prove?

That it exists.

You can prove its existence by setting up a siuation where air is heated and rises, cooled and falls. If you control every aspect of it, i.e. make it a lab experiment you would be able to repeat the results whenever you wished. That is all the wind is, air moving to fill the void created by heating and rising, or falling and cooling.

Here is the point I was trying to get at, and I only bring this up because you mentioned that you can't prove God is real, and that it is only a faith issue. You know wind is there because you see the results of wind. You can see leaves blowing, feel the air push against your face, here in Florida you can watch the wind destroy buildings. You can't actually see the wind, just the impact wind has on things it comes in contact with.

I suggest that you can know that God is real in the same manner, you may not be able to see him, but you can surely see the impact he has and has had on the world. You can even do the same experiment with God that you did to prove wind was real. He has given examples of what results will come by doing certain things, some of which are not scientifically explainable. I know God is real, not because somebody told me so, but because he has showed me so.

Did I get totally off track here, or did I make some sense?

Kev

 

[Mr Brown]

Here is the point I was trying to get at, and I only bring this up because you mentioned that you can't prove God is real, and that it is only a faith issue. You know wind is there because you see the results of wind. You can see leaves blowing, feel the air push against your face, here in Florida you can watch the wind destroy buildings. You can't actually see the wind, just the impact wind has on things it comes in contact with.

I suggest that you can know that God is real in the same manner, you may not be able to see him, but you can surely see the impact he has and has had on the world. You can even do the same experiment with God that you did to prove wind was real. He has given examples of what results will come by doing certain things, some of which are not scientifically explainable. I know God is real, not because somebody told me so, but because he has showed me so.

Did I get totally off track here, or did I make some sense?

Kev

I figured that you were headed in this direction once you brought up the wind question. You can duplicate the presece of wind by simply setting up the experiment. You cannot duplicate the presence of God. I understand the analogy, it's a common one, and in some respects fits. There are two problems with it, however. The first is that anything that you attribute to the presence of God, can be explained by other methods, if someone who doesn't believe sees it. The second, and more important flaw is that if you can PROVE the existence of God, it becomes a fact, which requires no faith, which in turn undermines a basic tenent of Christianity.
I'm not doubting that you believe that God exists, that it's a real belief to you, or that there are many others who agree with you. Not you or any other of those people can PROVE the existence of God to someone who doesn't accept it. Going back to the wind example, I can prove that the wind rustles leaves or knocks down buildings, my creating an observable and repeatable example in a controlled environment. It requires no faith to realize that the results of the experiment are true, there is no gap that has to be bridged in the process. The results you see as the work of God are equally as attributable to fairies, unicorns or aliens, if that is what you want to believe.
You are making sense, but it's way off topic. No one seems to care though, so we'll continue with our jacked thread......

 

[GD4GVN]

If there is no proof of God then how did you get here? Crawl out of a slime pit millions of years ago? Has any science been able to bring to life a human? Have you seen any monkeys turning into people? I do not recall in my short 32 years of life ever hearing of the zoo trying to find more monkeys because the old ones grew into people and they had to let them go.
Look at how complex the human body is and tell me that it came together by accident.



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[Mr Brown]

If there is no proof of God then how did you get here? Crawl out of a slime pit millions of years ago? Has any science been able to bring to life a human? Have you seen any monkeys turning into people? I do not recall in my short 32 years of life ever hearing of the zoo trying to find more monkeys because the old ones grew into people and they had to let them go.
Look at how complex the human body is and tell me that it came together by accident.

This is a common argument also. The "proof" you refer to is attributed to God by you because you believe in His existence. If you didn't have the faith that you do, and believed in magic, or some other creative force, you would use the same example to "prove " that existence also. there is not enough empirical evidence to prove where humans came from, some believe in creation, some in evolution, some in a combination of the two. They key word is believe. there is no FACTUAL basis to PROVE either one, so one must have faith.
You can believe something all you want, it doesn't make it a fact. A person can believe that they can fly with all they are. If they step off a bridge, the fact is that without some type of upward propulsion device, they will fall.
Since I've not discussed this topic with you before, please note that I mean you and your beliefs no disrespect, I just enjoy discussing topics people feel passionate about.

 

[GD4GVN]

You didn't answer the question. Where did we come from then?

 

[DAB]

Shouldn't God be an It not a Him. Why would it need to reproduce?

Just askin'

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[GD4GVN]

No offense taKen, I also like to discuss this topic and many others. I am not putting any one down, just talking amongst people.