My conclusions about "Hayabusa can't corner" and the track riding poll

[Mr Bogus]

Slicks have two advantages, they give a bit more traction due to not having any tread and they last longer than DOT race tires.

Slicks and race tires in general are designed to be used with tire warmers and by design are made to be riden extremely hard. Dunlops and Pirellis for instance are designed to perform best at around 170+ degrees. Chances are slim you'll ever see 170 degrees on a track day. Your BTO16 will preform almost as well as a race slick at 150 degrees.

If you aren't going to ride hard enough to make the slick work for you, IMO riding slicks or race tires is a waste of money. The slicks may give you more confidence but won't make you any faster than riding on a good high performance street tire.

ok slap me... are you agreeing?

I mean if you can not push the bike to the limit, you are wasting money?

I am getting the 003's to the point of wadding up pretty good.. should I stay or should i go?

 

[StromBusa]

I'm also thinking that if it rains I'd be in real trouble, prolly rain or shine schedule date.

 

[Tufbusa]

ok slap me... are you agreeing?

I mean if you can not push the bike to the limit, you are wasting money?

I am getting the 003's to the point of wadding up pretty good.. should I stay or should i go?

Your BTOO2's and 003's are actually race tires that have been homogenated for street use. Meaning the carcass was designed as a race tire (the 003 race I believe) that has a homogenized rubber compound so it's more user friendly for street use. Both are great tires but not a genuine Race Tire. Bridgestone is telling us that by the name Street/Race! These tires are as good as we had to race on five years ago.

Here is my opinion on tire use:
If you are spanking everyone in the intermediate group and running within 3 seconds of race pace you may be ready for full on race tires. Let me point out, at no time does your street tires perform better than race tires. The race tire however, must get really hot (170 degrees and up) to reach it's potential while the street tire reaches it's potential at a cooler temp. It takes very fast pace to properly heat a race tire

You'll know when you are ready for race tires because you'll begin to spin the rear and push the front at least once on every lap. At this point, you'll know you are reaching the limit of your tires.

Suspension plays such a huge roll in tire performance that you may only need some suspension tuning rather than needing a better tire.

To generalize my opinion, if you aren't fast enough to ride in the A group, you are probably wasting your money on Race Tires.

 

[gtrpimp76]

Yea the AMA pro guy... and just when you thought you were doing a good pace, this guy gets in front of you after following you for a lap or so..

Upside: he likes your line
downside: he wants you off the bike more
upside: he is taking time to help you
downside: he is easily out pacing you while looking over his shoulder
Upside: he clues you in to how to go faster, without really trying for speed, just fixing bad form, poor line selection etc..

Best upside? hey rookie, you are moving up a class!

NO LAP TIMERS (Or "Crash" timers as it was put to me) and I really have forgotten to ask about a 2-4" stretch for the track..

Exactly. We're pretty fortunate here to have AMA Superbike regulars like Chris Ulrich, Jeremy Toye, and occasionally, Miguel Duhamel (more so in the Vegas area) constantly circulating during our trackdays in A group. I've learned a huge amount just following Toye and Ulrich (of course when they actually decide to ride, I'm just an afterthough ). And just think, these guys are 1 to 2 seconds off Mat Mladin and Ben Spies' pace at Auto Club speedway. Makes you feel real insignificant, yet, gives you an idea of how much more room for improvement there is.

 

[gtrpimp76]

Your BTOO2's and 003's are actually race tires that have been homogenated for street use. Meaning the carcass was designed as a race tire (the 003 race I believe) that has a homogenized rubber compound so it's more user friendly for street use. Both are great tires but not a genuine Race Tire. Bridgestone is telling us that by the name Street/Race! These tires are as good as we had to race on five years ago.

Here is my opinion on tire use:
If you are spanking everyone in the intermediate group and running within 3 seconds of race pace you may be ready for full on race tires. Let me point out, at no time does your street tires perform better than race tires. The race tire however, must get really hot (170 degrees and up) to reach it's potential while the street tire reaches it's potential at a cooler temp. It takes very fast pace to properly heat a race tire

You'll know when you are ready for race tires because you'll begin to spin the rear and push the front at least once on every lap. At this point, you'll know you are reaching the limit of your tires.

Suspension plays such a huge roll in tire performance that you may only need some suspension tuning rather than needing a better tire.

To generalize my opinion, if you aren't fast enough to ride in the A group, you are probably wasting your money on Race Tires.

I have the 003 race and it comes in 3 compounds Type2 Hard, Type 3 medium, Type 4 soft. Type 4's are only recommended for sprint races lasting only 6 or so laps. After that, they're toast. I usually run the mediums as it's a best of both worlds tire. I actually run faster lap times with 3 just because I can feel the rear when it slides and the front when it pushes. The type 4 has TOO MUCH grip for my current setup and made me run a little bit slower. The front pushed WAY too hard and it was harder to steer with the rear. The type 4's also made front feel too difficult as assessment for the limit was nowhere near close to being what could be attained. Even many fast club racers have a hard time finding that limit, and few can actually reach/surpass it.

I've also found the 002RS (and I presume the 003RS as well) perfectly capable of competing for the podium in Novice class club racing. I was able to turn 1:30's consistently at Willow Springs big track, which is what podium in Novice heavyweight typically runs. On 003 race type 3, I can turn consistent 29's with a PR of 28.9. The street tires and race tires are so close nowadays that only expert/pros will only be able to tell the difference between the street and race versions.

 

[Tufbusa]

You are nuts on there my man (gtrpimp). I have found the current crop of high performance street tires are only 3 to 5 seconds (Depending on the tire) behind a race tire in proper hands.

I was so impressed with Dunlops Qualifier in the hands of Jason Pridmore at Thunder Hill. I had no idea that tire could lay down such impressive lap times. And the Q2, from what I have read is much improved and the pro guys were gaining 3 sec per lap over the original Q when this tire was in the testing stage. The Qualifier 2 may be the street tire of the year coming up?

These tires have narrowed the gap between street and race to the point it takes a pro racer to really tell the difference.

 

[outlawbusa]

Let me point out, at no time does your street tires perform better than race tires. The race tire however, must get really hot (170 degrees and up) to reach it's potential while the street tire reaches it's potential at a cooler temp. It takes very fast pace to properly heat a race tire.

Something to add to this...my understanding is if you run race tires on the street they can be a bit dangerous (misleading if you will) because some riders take off and do not allow them to warm up properly or do not ride hard enough to keep them at performance temperature...

Therefore, one rider takes off on street tires and the tires might be getting warm by the time they hit the on ramp, the race tires may not warm up nearly as quick giving the rider a false sense of security

Feel free to elaborate~!~

 

[Tufbusa]

Something to add to this...my understanding is if you run race tires on the street they can be a bit dangerous (misleading if you will) because some riders take off and do not allow them to warm up properly or do not ride hard enough to keep them at performance temperature...

Therefore, one rider takes off on street tires and the tires might be getting warm by the time they hit the on ramp, the race tires may not warm up nearly as quick giving the rider a false sense of security

Feel free to elaborate~!~

I'd have to disagree with that statement. Sport Rider had an article a year or so ago which covered this very misconception. Pirelli's lead tech said "At no point does a street tire out perform a race tire".

He also discounted the misconception many have of the need to scrub in tires. He said "All modern tires are made with teflon coated molds that cover the tread area making it un-necessary to use a tire release compound which was the cause of tires in the past being slippery until the compound residue was worn off".

One thing I'd like to point out is, many race tires have less grip in the rain than most street tires due to the lack of silica in the compound.

 

[outlawbusa]

He also discounted the misconception many have of the need to scrub in tires. He said "All modern tires are made with teflon coated molds that cover the tread area making it un-necessary to use a tire release compound which was the cause of tires in the past being slippery until the compound residue was worn off". .

First I've heard that, and nice to know~!~

Do we trust that other manufacturers are following their lead~?~

PS:::kinda funny you put that thought in from an article also, because I actually got my info from an article in one of the motorcycle mags...
They never can agree on anything can they~?~

 

[raydog]

I think I'll mildly disagree with the idea that, "at no time do your street tires perform better than race tires". If we define performance as purely function on a dry track, OK, but I think that's a challengable comment when applying it to the street environment.
Lack of silica teams with lack of a water displacing tread pattern in race tires to define their use as much more specific/surgical. High performance street tires are real good at many things where race tires are not (varied surface conditions, gross weight capacity, longevity, optimal adhesion at lower ambient temps, etc.). Lap times used as the sole barometer to determine how good a tire is, I think, is the barometer of racers like Ryan(gtrpimp), not track riders like Doyle (me!). Although I ride much faster with prewarmed slicks, that is only a secondary benefit for me, I use them primarily for enhanced safety, I'm perfectly satisfied doing my tracktime on my Busa playfully sparring with literbikes but not trying to dominate anyone!
I hope that makes sense, I'm just trying to speak for trackriders like me, maybe it's my way of blending maximum fun with maximum safety for a 62 year old family man? Doyle

 

[kml]

I think I'll mildly disagree with the idea that, "at no time do your street tires perform better than race tires". If we define performance as purely function on a dry track, OK, but I think that's a challengable comment when applying it to the street environment. Doyle

Was out today, few degrees above freezing, roads was damp in the shaded portions. For street riding I'll take the "silica enhanced".

cheers
ken