My conclusions about "Hayabusa can't corner" and the track riding poll

[Munchie]

First, very sorry for your get off and the injures - that's a real bummer. I had a real tankslapper at about 110 on the racetrack in the wet going over a bump (which was coincidentally removed some time after my crash by the racetrack), you know like a giant shook you a few times and threw you off the bike. Ended in a lowside, almost no injuries, the bike and me slid on the banking of the track, hit the wall with a top of the bike (I stopped 5 ft from the wall) breaking the hump, upper plastic, etc. - all repairable, but wasn't pretty at the time, and leaking oil from the stator cover.

OK. I am trying to learn something here, but can't comprehend the input.

Here is the scenario I can comprehend. A rider smoothly rolls the gas on at the exit. The rear starts spinning. The rider stops rolling the gas on, and holds it steady. The rear hooks up nicely. If the gear selection was such that the rear started spinning (i.e. there was enough torque to break the traction whatever the gear selection was), and the rider still holds the gas, and the rear is at some angle, why would it hook up abruptly - it shouldn't, it can't. The bike continues to straighten. As the rear comes more into alignment with the path of travel and only a few degrees off, only then the rear may hook up gently (because the torgue is still on) which may result in a small shake and a possible wheelie.

Now, there could be a couple of different scenarious where a rider makes a mistake leading to a possible highside.

1. The rider rolls the gas on so aggressively that the tire spins way too out of control. Holding the throttle steady causes the rear to come around until it reaches a steering lock or close to 90 deg, and this causes a highside no matter what. Closing the throttle would cause the rear to snap while still not aligned with the path of travel - also a highside. Partially closing the throttle quickly would be an ideal solution, but it's very hard to measure the input and execute it quickly, so most likely the rider would fall into one of above actions, both of which cause a highside. Now, being in shorter gear and close to a redline would force a rev limiter to kick in, thus limiting the amount of spin while providing a good amount of torque. This would prevent the rear spinning out of control, and allow it to come into an alignment and hook up nicely. Or, staying in shorter gear (and high torque rpm) if the rider shuts the throttle or starts to close it, the rear hooks up with a big shake, but not the highside.

2. The rider rolls the gas on smoothly, and the rear starts spinning. Instead of holding the gas steady, the rider panics (or simply out of the wrong reflex) closes (or starts closing) the throttle while the rear is spinning while being out of alignment with the bike's path. This causes an abrupt hook up, and again since the rear is out of alignment, a highside occurs. Now, in this scenario, the rider may be lucky to avoid a highside if the engine is in high rpms (i.e. being in shorter gear) and makes more torque which in turn softens the hook up, thus avoiding a highside and only causing a scary shake. So, for this scenario staying in shorter gear makes it more forgiving in case a rider makes this particular mistake.

So, yes I agree that staying in shorter gear becomes a safety feature which increases the likelyhood of not highsiding should the rider make one of the two mistakes above.

So, my point is, that being smooth and progressive with roll ons, and holding
the throttle steady once the rear starts spinning will make for a nice hook up regardless of the gear selection.

I personally had it as far as the rear starts losing traction, but never actually went into any spinning (small lose and grab sequence), at which point I said to myself "OK, I got the message" and held it steady.

So, where am I going wrong?

Oh, yea, a nice shot of that blue/silver you are missing, prior to my get off. I think that's from '05. Still wearing Katana 600 helmet.

Ahhhh...the memories...

Nice looking bike for sure! Preciate the salt in my wounds!

 

[raydog]

You know, regardless of how fast you ride, I think it is inappropriate to talk about track riding and street riding as though they are the same thing. As my frequency of track riding increases, I've noticed that I have actually slowed down on the street.....I don't mean that I ride slow on the street (lord knows we go good in the twisties!) I mean I don't try to get a knee down like before. I can think of nine reasons to slow down into a big safety envelope on the street.....driveways, crossroads, debris, animals, police, cars, no nearby medics, slick painted lines and varying surface conditions!
Clearly the skills one acquires on the track transfers to the street.....that does not mean one should ride faster on the street "beacuse they're so much more skillful now that they're a track rider", that's a recipe for a street accident. Raydog

 

[Munchie]

You know, regardless of how fast you ride, I think it is inappropriate to talk about track riding and street riding as though they are the same thing. As my frequency of track riding increases, I've noticed that I have actually slowed down on the street.....I don't mean that I ride slow on the street (lord knows we go good in the twisties!) I mean I don't try to get a knee down like before. I can think of nine reasons to slow down into a big safety envelope on the street.....driveways, crossroads, debris, animals, police, cars, no nearby medics, slick painted lines and varying surface conditions!
Clearly the skills one acquires on the track transfers to the street.....that does not mean one should ride faster on the street "beacuse they're so much more skillful now that they're a track rider", that's a recipe for a street accident. Raydog

Not really sure if that was in response to my post but I definitely agree with you here. I was riding entirely too hard for the street...and after my wreck, waited about 1.5 hours for the ambulance. Had I been seriously injured (beyond the broken collar bone) who knows. I now have trouble with "how far is too far" being overly cautious and over-reacting to bobbles and normal "inputs" while actually in a turn.
My comments around investing in some track time are more around my thinking that some track instruction would get me back where I was as far as hustling through the turns the at the speed I remember, just not being on the edge of wrecking the entire time I'm doing it.

 

[TruWrecks]

Here's a full vid of the guy in white.....

- Insane riding skills[/url]

That was one of my ride coaches on my first track day. I remember that bike and the white leathers. He complimented me on handling the Busa so well on the track. That track is Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA.

The video doesn't show the entire track. Turns 3-7 are missing.

 

[IG.]

Ditto on this one. When I was doing more track days, there was always a thought in the back of my mind - why push it, just take it easy, enjoy the ride? The track day is coming. And after a track day, first week was like why even bother going out? It's the rarity of track days that was waking up my wild side.

But let's not get away from the main subject. So, regarding the videos of Rossi and the other guy in all white, do they really spin the rear while redlining the engine, or is it a fine touch - just barely breaking the traction - regardless whether it's hitting the redline or not?

I was generally aware that keeping rpm up is a good thing, but just now realized something I had in mind when I was using taller gear. The plan was to use taller gear while I was going slow compared to the fast pace. As I progress and my speed increases, I would use the same gear, but would pick up rpm because of higher speed. For example, I am exiting a turn at 70 in 2nd at slow pace, cranking up 6.5k rpm. Let's say I advanced and my exit speed is now 90 mph, so staying in the same 2nd gear gives us 8.5k rpm.

This brings us to another interesting question. Staying in 2nd gear at 90 mph and cranking up 8.5k rpm is still too far from the redline of 11k rpm. The problem is that 1st gear redlines slightly above 80 mph, and therefore cannot be used at 90 mph. According to the previous discussion, 8.5k rpm is a bit too low to be in at the exit, but there is no gear between 1st and 2nd. Does this mean that if the rear breaks lose on such turn, it's the highside?

I still have a feeling that yes staying in higher rpm (but not necessarily the highest) is a good thing for better control, but the key in traction management is more in the fine touch and feel, and correct reflexes (like not chopping the throttle).

Another thought I had (and I think I might've picked it up elsewhere like in Sport Rider magazine) that if a rider wants to spin the rear while being somewhat close to the traction limits, he could add more gas for just a moment. The logic here is that as he adds more gas, the rear starts spinning. However, he reduces the gas right away (as a pre-planned action so no reaction time is involved) to where it was so the rear spins controllably and hooks up nicely. This method has an advantage vs. a blind roll on when a rider keeps rolling on until the rear breaks lose. Any reaction time is too long to reduce the spin at this point, and the rider should count on the rev limiter to limit the spin. Or it has to be a very fine touch, and barely overstepping traction limits.

Only gentlemen can ride fast, because only gentlemen have gentle hands needed to control a motorcycle at speed.

P.S. I am not the only one staying up late. Have to sign off. My wife cannot sleep because of my typing. She lease: to stop, and I have to obey

 

[TruWrecks]

You should use the same gear for each turn no matter how fast you are going. Why reinforce a bad habit?

 

[IG.]

You should use the same gear for each turn no matter how fast you are going. Why reinforce a bad habit?

That's exactly what I am doing. E.g. always 2nd gear for the turn in the example above.

 

[EarlyBird]

Fricking Awesome Video!!! Pure mad and insane!

 

[mjn]

Until you wreck, I don't think you can appreciate how close you have come to wrecking.

Quoted for truth!!

I didn't realize just how much I push it on the street until I went to the track..... and fell down.

 

[Tufbusa]

That was one of my ride coaches on my first track day. I remember that bike and the white leathers. He complimented me on handling the Busa so well on the track. That track is Pacific Raceways in Kent, WA.

The video doesn't show the entire track. Turns 3-7 are missing.

That's Mitchel Pierce on the R1. I know Mitchel quite well. He is 22 years old and has Mad Skills. I met Mitchel when he was 18 and was thoroughly impressed with his skills and humble personality.

I don't think it was Mitchel who was your track coach. I have never known Mitchel to work as an instructor. However, I did spend a weekend with Mitchel at Thunderhill and learned a few tricks from him. The guy is unbelieveable. I watched him do a wheelie around the parking lot at the track for 35 minutes without touching the front wheel down!

Mitchel didn't race this year but we hope to see him out again next year.

 

[Tufbusa]

Quoted for truth!!

I didn't realize just how much I push it on the street until I went to the track..... and fell down.

You fell down because your tire was cold!

Don't let this guy fool you, he rides a busa with bad intentions! :azzangel:

 

[StromBusa]

I need slicks for track day --- advice

 

[TruWrecks]

That's Mitchel Pierce on the R1. I know Mitchel quite well. He is 22 years old and has Mad Skills. I met Mitchel when he was 18 and was thoroughly impressed with his skills and humble personality.

I don't think it was Mitchel who was your track coach. I have never known Mitchel to work as an instructor. However, I did spend a weekend with Mitchel at Thunderhill and learned a few tricks from him. The guy is unbelieveable. I watched him do a wheelie around the parking lot at the track for 35 minutes without touching the front wheel down!

Mitchel didn't race this year but we hope to see him out again next year.

I must be mistaken then. I swear I followed a very similar bike and leathers a few times that day.

 

[Tufbusa]

Doug, there is a possibility it was Mitchel? Mitchel was riding that R1 in 08 I believe? If you ever have opportunity to hang out with Mitchel, don't pass it up. You can learn a lot from him! He began racing shortly after he shed his diapers. He lied about his age to get into road racing and was running with the top guys from the beginning.

His dad built a dirt track at their house when Mitchel was very small. Mitchel said he would come home from school and spend 3 or more hours on that track every day, rain or shine.

Next time you are at the track when Mitchel is present, I'll introduce you.

 

[EarlyBird]

Would love to learn from a guy like that! Need more track time here!

 

[gtrpimp76]

Here's 16 yr old Elena Myers. She's finally getting her AMA Pro Racing license for 2010 and racing Supersport and possibly Daytona Sportbike. Imagine doing a trackday, thinking you're all that, only to get smoked by a 16 yr old girl whose on a "little" 600.

 

[Mr Bogus]

I need slicks for track day --- advice

not so sure about that... I got a full season riding the DOT race tires and am not sure I am ready for slicks yet.. I do know the one track I have run the most? I can run a slick there (I think)...

Again I think it is more than helpful if you can ride a bike close to its limits FIRST... Matching the bikes ability with your own? Perhaps will give you a better idea of what the "edge" is like? I do know what the BT002 and BT003RS feel like when they are sliding and I am ok with it.. Now, what does a slick feel like at this same limit?

I mean, you can probably make big mistakes on slicks that you wont get away with on a DOT tire.. learning that "Feel" might be helpful when you do get on slicks (cost of error is much higher due to corner speeds?)

Comments?

 

[Mr Bogus]

BTW-Many of u are overthinking this! Just sign up for a TD and RIDE! The act of "doing" and experiencing beats the endless prose that eventually becomes moot point. I guarantee, there is ALWAYS someone faster than u. Always take the opportunity when an instructor or AMA Pro pulls up in front of you, taps their tail section (means they want you to follow them and observe their lines, body positioning, etc). When u finally get to ride Level 3 or A Group, all of the things mentioned in this thread should already start to flow and take less than 0.001/sec for your brain to process and rider input should follow soon thereafter.

Yea the AMA pro guy... and just when you thought you were doing a good pace, this guy gets in front of you after following you for a lap or so..

Upside: he likes your line
downside: he wants you off the bike more
upside: he is taking time to help you
downside: he is easily out pacing you while looking over his shoulder
Upside: he clues you in to how to go faster, without really trying for speed, just fixing bad form, poor line selection etc..

Best upside? hey rookie, you are moving up a class!

NO LAP TIMERS (Or "Crash" timers as it was put to me) and I really have forgotten to ask about a 2-4" stretch for the track..

 

[StromBusa]

not so sure about that... I got a full season riding the DOT race tires and am not sure I am ready for slicks yet.. I do know the one track I have run the most? I can run a slick there (I think)...

Again I think it is more than helpful if you can ride a bike close to its limits FIRST... Matching the bikes ability with your own? Perhaps will give you a better idea of what the "edge" is like? I do know what the BT002 and BT003RS feel like when they are sliding and I am ok with it.. Now, what does a slick feel like at this same limit?

I mean, you can probably make big mistakes on slicks that you wont get away with on a DOT tire.. learning that "Feel" might be helpful when you do get on slicks (cost of error is much higher due to corner speeds?)

Comments?

Mostly going on Raydog's comments, I get the idea it would be a super pleasant experience to run on slicks. I will prolly only do 1 trackday per year, want to make the best of it, & no, I don't plan on reaching/exceeding any limits - bike-tires-my own... I could swap out tires cuz I am gettin a machine this winter. I am generally happy with my BT16's, I'm sure they would keep up to me. I simply want the ultimate fun from the whole thing. sorry for late answer, not looking of late.

 

[Tufbusa]

Slicks have two advantages, they give a bit more traction due to not having any tread and they last longer than DOT race tires.

Slicks and race tires in general are designed to be used with tire warmers and by design are made to be riden extremely hard. Dunlops and Pirellis for instance are designed to perform best at around 170+ degrees. Chances are slim you'll ever see 170 degrees on a track day. Your BTO16 will preform almost as well as a race slick at 150 degrees.

If you aren't going to ride hard enough to make the slick work for you, IMO riding slicks or race tires is a waste of money. The slicks may give you more confidence but won't make you any faster than riding on a good high performance street tire.