My conclusions about "Hayabusa can't corner" and the track riding poll

[sixpack577]

my race number is 138 but with 77 you get ate(8) more then 69 with that number and 138 gives you twice as much

That's a cool radar trailer, the ones I've tried in my state won't show over 99mph.

 

[sixpack577]

The pipes on the 08, 09's really suck, they drag the road when u lean it over! So if u try ta push it any further, you're askin for a lowside. When they're off, u can chew off the edge of the rear tire's sidewall. The Busa corners and handles awesome.

The right side fairing also sticks out further than the left. Resulting in an egg shaped scrape/hole growing in the right lower fairing, as well as the outer front of my right boot...need adjustable rearsets for my boot. I don't think it's gonna go any further, so the engine case will be fine. Anyone else notice this, I know there's plenty of fast, and faster than me guys out there.

 

[Mr Bogus]

Am I the only one who works out? She can be turned in whatever and however you want her to be. Just show her who is the man (or a woman).

must be...

I come off the track after running a hard intermediate session and I am huffing and puffing.. trying to run with kids on the liter bikes is a workout I enjoy, I like even better passing them on the corner exits..

I do wish the bike was easier to flip lefty/righty.. I think I am going to try a set of RayDogs slicks this year..

 

[EarlyBird]

I workout and I dont mind husselling the big girl around! I am 175lbs and 5' 8". The busa is a capable bike! You just need to be smooth on the gas, brakes, and know the limits of the big girl! The bike is wider and 100 to 110lbs heavier the a liter bike......Mine weihgs in at 548lbs with fuel. The mods done to mine that have helped get here to lean better and help with handling are: Track days on other bikes for me....cant say enough about track days. Time in a parking lot and feeling the bike out to! Full exhaust... weight loss and road clearance improvement. A larger rear tire a 190/55r17 instead of the 190/70r17. Raises the rear, more contact patch. The 3 tooth up rear sprocket. Shortens wheel base, give more pull for the larger rear tire added. Rear dog bones. Raise the rear 1" more weigh on the nose... and better feel on what the front end is doing! Getting the sag setup for your body weight too....Learning how to setup the suspension.

 

[TommyGunn1300]

your stats are wrong.. a busa wont take a turn for anything. they are only good in a stright line

 

[Munchie]

Having been through a high-side exactly as Tuf has described, I have to agree with his senario.

We had been bottled up behind a gang of cages forever and no-place to pass...then out of nowhere, our lane opened up to a two lane passing zone. I was not in a gear for being wound up because we weren't in "Attack Mode" for the curves. I came into a hard right turn, set my speed, laid it over, and gassed hard out of the turn. The back tire lit, the bike turned completely sideways and snapped - I had no time for any type of reacion (chopping the throttle). The snap happens so fast, and the bike gets so far out of line with your momentum, that I don't think it could have been saved - no matter what I could have done. I went over the bars, bike was totalled. Broke my collarbone, and right big toe. Pulled the sole off my boot...I thought at first I had broken my leg. When I took my first step, I stumbled, looked down and realized my foot/sock was actually on the pavement (with my boot still covering the top of my foot).

BTW...I was on an 01' Blue and Silver - exactly like I.G.'s Still miss it too...I could put the freaking spank on some dude with that bike. Surprised many a rider at Dragon's Tail.


Hence, the aquisition of my K8 Just can't seem to hustle it as well as my GenI

 

[Munchie]

The right side fairing also sticks out further than the left. Resulting in an egg shaped scrape/hole growing in the right lower fairing, as well as the outer front of my right boot...need adjustable rearsets for my boot. I don't think it's gonna go any further, so the engine case will be fine. Anyone else notice this, I know there's plenty of fast, and faster than me guys out there.

Guess I never thought about that, but I did drag my right side plastics more than the left. ???

Maybe that is why...?

 

[Munchie]

I workout and I dont mind husselling the big girl around! I am 175lbs and 5' 8". The busa is a capable bike! You just need to be smooth on the gas, brakes, and know the limits of the big girl! The bike is wider and 100 to 110lbs heavier the a liter bike......Mine weihgs in at 548lbs with fuel. The mods done to mine that have helped get here to lean better and help with handling are: Track days on other bikes for me....cant say enough about track days. Time in a parking lot and feeling the bike out to! Full exhaust... weight loss and road clearance improvement. A larger rear tire a 190/55r17 instead of the 190/70r17. Raises the rear, more contact patch. The 3 tooth up rear sprocket. Shortens wheel base, give more pull for the larger rear tire added. Rear dog bones. Raise the rear 1" more weigh on the nose... and better feel on what the front end is doing! Getting the sag setup for your body weight too....Learning how to setup the suspension.

It has always been my understanding that the first number is the width (190) and the second number is the height - a percentage of the width (70% of 190 vs 55% of 190). A 55 series tire is smaller (in diameter) than a 70 series...unless you are meaning that the tire is "flatter" since it doesnt have a tall profile...? ???

 

[Mr Bogus]

It has always been my understanding that the first number is the width (190) and the second number is the height - a percentage of the width (70% of 190 vs 55% of 190). A 55 series tire is smaller (in diameter) than a 70 series...unless you are meaning that the tire is "flatter" since it doesnt have a tall profile...? ???

was a typo.. the stock tire is a 50 not 70, and yes you are correct.. mr fat finger just invented a new tire size is all

 

[kml]

I disagree with everyone.

That was funny!!!!!

cheers
ken

 

[EarlyBird]

was a typo on my part that I didnt catch! Thanks Bogus! I meant 55 vs a 50! Damn Cars! I work with to many 70 series tires in our fleet of U.S.P.S. vehicles!

 

[Munchie]

was a typo.. the stock tire is a 50 not 70, and yes you are correct.. mr fat finger just invented a new tire size is all

was a typo on my part that I didnt catch! Thanks Bogus! I meant 55 vs a 50! Damn Cars! I work with to many 70 series tires in our fleet of U.S.P.S. vehicles!

It's all good fellers...just making sure I was following correctly

 

[IG.]

Having been through a high-side exactly as Tuf has described, I have to agree with his senario.

We had been bottled up behind a gang of cages forever and no-place to pass...then out of nowhere, our lane opened up to a two lane passing zone. I was not in a gear for being wound up because we weren't in "Attack Mode" for the curves. I came into a hard right turn, set my speed, laid it over, and gassed hard out of the turn. The back tire lit, the bike turned completely sideways and snapped - I had no time for any type of reacion (chopping the throttle). The snap happens so fast, and the bike gets so far out of line with your momentum, that I don't think it could have been saved - no matter what I could have done. I went over the bars, bike was totalled. Broke my collarbone, and right big toe. Pulled the sole off my boot...I thought at first I had broken my leg. When I took my first step, I stumbled, looked down and realized my foot/sock was actually on the pavement (with my boot still covering the top of my foot).

BTW...I was on an 01' Blue and Silver - exactly like I.G.'s Still miss it too...I could put the freaking spank on some dude with that bike. Surprised many a rider at Dragon's Tail.


Hence, the aquisition of my K8 Just can't seem to hustle it as well as my GenI

First, very sorry for your get off and the injures - that's a real bummer. I had a real tankslapper at about 110 on the racetrack in the wet going over a bump (which was coincidentally removed some time after my crash by the racetrack), you know like a giant shook you a few times and threw you off the bike. Ended in a lowside, almost no injuries, the bike and me slid on the banking of the track, hit the wall with a top of the bike (I stopped 5 ft from the wall) breaking the hump, upper plastic, etc. - all repairable, but wasn't pretty at the time, and leaking oil from the stator cover.

OK. I am trying to learn something here, but can't comprehend the input.

Here is the scenario I can comprehend. A rider smoothly rolls the gas on at the exit. The rear starts spinning. The rider stops rolling the gas on, and holds it steady. The rear hooks up nicely. If the gear selection was such that the rear started spinning (i.e. there was enough torque to break the traction whatever the gear selection was), and the rider still holds the gas, and the rear is at some angle, why would it hook up abruptly - it shouldn't, it can't. The bike continues to straighten. As the rear comes more into alignment with the path of travel and only a few degrees off, only then the rear may hook up gently (because the torgue is still on) which may result in a small shake and a possible wheelie.

Now, there could be a couple of different scenarious where a rider makes a mistake leading to a possible highside.

1. The rider rolls the gas on so aggressively that the tire spins way too out of control. Holding the throttle steady causes the rear to come around until it reaches a steering lock or close to 90 deg, and this causes a highside no matter what. Closing the throttle would cause the rear to snap while still not aligned with the path of travel - also a highside. Partially closing the throttle quickly would be an ideal solution, but it's very hard to measure the input and execute it quickly, so most likely the rider would fall into one of above actions, both of which cause a highside. Now, being in shorter gear and close to a redline would force a rev limiter to kick in, thus limiting the amount of spin while providing a good amount of torque. This would prevent the rear spinning out of control, and allow it to come into an alignment and hook up nicely. Or, staying in shorter gear (and high torque rpm) if the rider shuts the throttle or starts to close it, the rear hooks up with a big shake, but not the highside.

2. The rider rolls the gas on smoothly, and the rear starts spinning. Instead of holding the gas steady, the rider panics (or simply out of the wrong reflex) closes (or starts closing) the throttle while the rear is spinning while being out of alignment with the bike's path. This causes an abrupt hook up, and again since the rear is out of alignment, a highside occurs. Now, in this scenario, the rider may be lucky to avoid a highside if the engine is in high rpms (i.e. being in shorter gear) and makes more torque which in turn softens the hook up, thus avoiding a highside and only causing a scary shake. So, for this scenario staying in shorter gear makes it more forgiving in case a rider makes this particular mistake.

So, yes I agree that staying in shorter gear becomes a safety feature which increases the likelyhood of not highsiding should the rider make one of the two mistakes above.

So, my point is, that being smooth and progressive with roll ons, and holding
the throttle steady once the rear starts spinning will make for a nice hook up regardless of the gear selection.

I personally had it as far as the rear starts losing traction, but never actually went into any spinning (small lose and grab sequence), at which point I said to myself "OK, I got the message" and held it steady.

So, where am I going wrong?

Oh, yea, a nice shot of that blue/silver you are missing, prior to my get off. I think that's from '05. Still wearing Katana 600 helmet.

 

[goblinsix]

I have no problem cornering on mine whatsoever. I can flop her over almost to the rim:-) I wore the chicken strips off of my tires in the first few days.

 

[Mr Bogus]

See if TufBusa agrees with this part

Here is the scenario I can comprehend. A rider smoothly rolls the gas on at the exit. The rear starts spinning. The rider stops rolling the gas on, and holds it steady. The rear hooks up nicely. If the gear selection was such that the rear started spinning (i.e. there was enough torque to break the traction whatever the gear selection was), and the rider still holds the gas, and the rear is at some angle, why would it hook up abruptly - it shouldn't, it can't. The bike continues to straighten. As the rear comes more into alignment with the path of travel and only a few degrees off, only then the rear may hook up gently (because the torgue is still on) which may result in a small shake and a possible wheelie.

I think there are a few things you gotta take into account.. (at least this is the to the best of my understanding so far, and is probably different between cold and hot tires too)

There is a difference between a controlled drift or power slide and a full on "way too much action for the traction roll on"
You can not achieve the "way too much" if the rpm's are just not available making the "stay on it" thing much easier and safer.

I have a few turns I have down pretty well of the controlled drift with the back tire spinning to some degree.. If I do this with the bike showing 9-10G on the tach.. it is an ultimate thrill as the motor spins up another 1000 rpm or so.

I would bet if I had the same corner speed (big point) got the same effect at say 7000rpm (up one gear) the bike would spool up the rear tire right up to the same RPM of the previous encounter but instead of say 10mph differential, I might have a 30mph differential of the tire vs pavement.. (making for some bad things to happen as the bike can not accelerate to meet this new speed where it could with the 10mph and the more total loss of traction) I then freak out at the sideways affect and well, start planning on repairs.. At least this is how I think it would happen..

I think the conundrum comes from the fact that if you are running "so slow" that the bike can not power the rear tire out from under you..

You might get away with this low RPM thing early in your track experience but I bet it makes for some bad habits you gotta break later..

I (whether right or wrong and am not sure yet) use a lot of motor for braking and it does not work if the rpms are too low, if I can not decel on the motor? I figure I do not have the right gear.. Suppose as I get better and faster, this will change a bit?


ALSO... doing this on cold tires vs tires that are up to temp are TWO completely different scenarios (well at least to my experience with both conditions)..

 

[raydog]

See if TufBusa agrees with this part
I think there are a few things you gotta take into account.. (at least this is the to the best of my understanding so far, and is probably different between cold and hot tires too)

There is a difference between a controlled drift or power slide and a full on "way too much action for the traction roll on"
You can not achieve the "way too much" if the rpm's are just not available making the "stay on it" thing much easier and safer.

I have a few turns I have down pretty well of the controlled drift with the back tire spinning to some degree.. If I do this with the bike showing 9-10G on the tach.. it is an ultimate thrill as the motor spins up another 1000 rpm or so.

I would bet if I had the same corner speed (big point) got the same effect at say 7000rpm (up one gear) the bike would spool up the rear tire right up to the same RPM of the previous encounter but instead of say 10mph differential, I might have a 30mph differential of the tire vs pavement.. (making for some bad things to happen as the bike can not accelerate to meet this new speed where it could with the 10mph and the more total loss of traction) I then freak out at the sideways affect and well, start planning on repairs.. At least this is how I think it would happen..

I think the conundrum comes from the fact that if you are running "so slow" that the bike can not power the rear tire out from under you..

You might get away with this low RPM thing early in your track experience but I bet it makes for some bad habits you gotta break later..

I (whether right or wrong and am not sure yet) use a lot of motor for braking and it does not work if the rpms are too low, if I can not decel on the motor? I figure I do not have the right gear.. Suppose as I get better and faster, this will change a bit?


ALSO... doing this on cold tires vs tires that are up to temp are TWO completely different scenarios (well at least to my experience with both conditions)..

Well said Bog! It sure would be fun (and educational) to track ride with you and debrief after each session re: this stuff. I think communication helps sort out bad habits from good....AND identifys bad/counterproductive behaviors we have that we didn't even know we had!
One comment....at +9/10ths, sometimes I feel fully in control and planted in a corner, all is well, then someone will approach me later and say, "OMG, you were broadsliding and literally throwing up asphault and rubber at me!" My confusion is that I didn't realize how aggressive I was handling a particular corner at the time so I'm working on that "disconnect" in my brain. I don't know if I explained that very well other than my concern that I must need work in sensing when I'm on the edge? I know I'm jamming and even feel very comfortable but "chunks of asphault"? Just a little thinking out loud here. Doyle

 

[IG.]

OK, Mr. Bogus. So, you are using the approach I described in item 1 where you start spinning when the engine is not too far from the redline and the spin is limited by the redline. OK, everything seems to make sense. The challenge of this approach is that the rider needs to be in the exact rpm range which is close to redline.

The shortcoming of this approach is the reliance on rev limiter, and not on the correct technique (assuming my main point in the post above is correct). A counter example would be a rider riding in the wet, with lower rpm for obvious reason and accidentally spinning the rear on the exit. It's pretty far from the redline. So, what the rider should do?

My answer would be that the rider should've been rolling on very smoothly, and simply stop rolling on while holding it steady when the spin started. It will hook up gently. Well, maybe the wet example is not so great because the hook up is always gentler in the wet because of less traction. But you see my point: you were in a turn, not close to redline and did not intend to spin, but it spun. So, what do you do?

I absolutely agree on warming up the tires. And I absolutely agree on engine braking at the entrance - been doing it all day long to scrube those leftover mph.

Now, I am expecting either agreement, or a rebuff on may main point.

In general, I absolutely agree on keeping the rpm higher, but not necessarily close to redline. I mostly ride on the track within 6k - 9k, occasionally going higher, mostly in the straights - kinda silly to upshift for 2 - 3 sec and then click down.

 

[raydog]

I certainly would not speak for Mr. Bogus but I must agree with the general rule that....the higher the rpm-the lower the potential for highsiding. And yes, that makes you closer to the rev limiter and occasionally I'll hit it but so what? Hitting it only occurs AFTER the apex on the way to full vertical with more forward traction and it only occurs occasionally. It is quickly made irrelevant by an upshift.
As to spinning the rear when not intended (rain, liquid on track, etc.) I've stepped out a few times but a quick roll back of the throttle before the regaining of traction eliminates the forthcoming high side.
There's one aspect no one's mentioned yet, that is, the riders judgement, feel, connection to the motorcycle and track. There is a more esoteric component past the science...it just comes from 1000's of laps, previous mistakes, the way you are hard-wired personally as a motorcyclist. Some are happy to "just ride" while others must explore their "limits". Actually, it's a continium and I, for example, like to explore BUT MUST INCLUDE a great deal of personal safety (two college bound daughters, house, wife, you all know the story). I just know my DNA won't allow me to pull a trailer on a Gold Wing but commands me to enjoy the more extreme ends of our sport....and enjoyment it is! I know that's true for a lot of you as well and I truly enjoy reading your take on it all. Peace, Doyle

 

[EarlyBird]

I agree with how the point was made above about the rpm and throttle use when the rear starts to slide or drift! A small correction of throttle will help keep it in check! Also dont forget weighting the pegs too.... to control the rear of the bike. Moving the weight on the pegs to keep the bike doing what you want! Again riding at 9/10th the pace , like written above I have had others tell me I am sliding in and out of corners with back end stepping out. Like bogus mentioned... I have only started to do this and feel this after a few warm up laps! Cold tires and jamming away means you and the bike are going to high side and go down! I have made this mistake before, not allowing the tires to come up to temp! The only way I have save my A$$ was by letting the bike unload some, luck, weight on the pegs, and trying to make small throttle inputs! This has happened twice on my 02 1k! The one that got me was oil on the road..... once you hit that you are done!

 

[StromBusa]

I think that when I suddenly butt clench the seat it sucks some air out of the tires and improves the grip