Oh ! So now he's my Vice President

[afterhours]

the big question:

if Israel pulled out of gaza, for real. ended all activity and influence.....

Would the attacks stop?
Do both sides want peace?


i personally don't think they would, but I think that until certain groups can end hostilities towards Israel there cannot be peace.

Arafat was demoted and eventually confined to his "compound" because of his acceptance of Israel and his attempts at peace.

 

[GHILLIE]

Read some history, there were relatively few problems before 1948. Don't forget we liberated many Arab countries in North Africa during WWII. We also supported the overthrow of the USSR in Afganistan. Some of our major mistakes have been supporting Israel and the Shaw of Iran. Nothing has been gained in terms of our national interest by supporting Israel.

The Palestinians had the rug pulled out from under them and have been treated like crap, Hamas and the PLO were formed as a result of the atrocious conditions suffered by Palestinians and never threatened America or Americans until reciently. Had it occured in this country i suspect you would see Americans acting in a very similiar way to protect our homes.

I'm very familiar with history, actually have a minor in history, and have studied quite a bit on the Middle East, to include reading the Quran. Like I said, I won't entertain an intense debate with you on this as we likely would part with hard feelings, and that does nothing for why I'm on this forum. I will only say that we likely are very close to being diametrically opposed on this topic.

This is a very polarizing topic, and most people are on one side or the other. But make no mistake, we would be battling Islam regardless of where we stood with Israel. Further, I believe we will continue to battle Islam, until we lose, and I believe we will lose. We will lose due to external forces, Islam itself, and internal forces, our own political correctness.

As far as your comment about if the same occurred here, I have an analogy for you. If you lived near an Indian reservation (their plight here is in a small way similar to your belief of what is going on in Palestine) and they were lobbing rockets into your house, schools, malls, etc. you likely would deal with the Indians on the reservation like Israel is Palestine.

 

[Dino]

I'm very familiar with history, actually have a minor in history, and have studied quite a bit on the Middle East, to include reading the Quran. Like I said, I won't entertain an intense debate with you on this as we likely would part with hard feelings, and that does nothing for why I'm on this forum. I will only say that we likely are very close to being diametrically opposed on this topic.

This is a very polarizing topic, and most people are on one side or the other. But make no mistake, we would be battling Islam regardless of where we stood with Israel. Further, I believe we will continue to battle Islam, until we lose, and I believe we will lose. We will lose due to external forces, Islam itself, and internal forces, our own political correctness.

As far as your comment about if the same occurred here, I have an analogy for you. If you lived near an Indian reservation (their plight here is in a small way similar to your belief of what is going on in Palestine) and they were lobbing rockets into your house, schools, malls, etc. you likely would deal with the Indians on the reservation like Israel is Palestine.

As an individual I probably would do whatever it took to defend my home. The government should not sanction it. Either way the Native Americans my be justified in doing so based upon our treatment of them.

 

[afterhours]

its very easy to condemm Israel.....while sitting in the safety of our homes. However none of us would find it acceptable to live with the fear of rocket or suicide attacks.

 

[Dino]

its very easy to condemm Israel.....while sitting in the safety of our homes. However none of us would find it acceptable to live with the fear of rocket or suicide attacks.

You sleep in the bed you made. I would not want to be kicked out of my home and displaced by the government because of my ethnicity either.

 

[Dino]

I'm very familiar with history, actually have a minor in history, and have studied quite a bit on the Middle East, to include reading the Quran. Like I said, I won't entertain an intense debate with you on this as we likely would part with hard feelings, and that does nothing for why I'm on this forum. I will only say that we likely are very close to being diametrically opposed on this topic.

This is a very polarizing topic, and most people are on one side or the other. But make no mistake, we would be battling Islam regardless of where we stood with Israel. Further, I believe we will continue to battle Islam, until we lose, and I believe we will lose. We will lose due to external forces, Islam itself, and internal forces, our own political correctness.

As far as your comment about if the same occurred here, I have an analogy for you. If you lived near an Indian reservation (their plight here is in a small way similar to your belief of what is going on in Palestine) and they were lobbing rockets into your house, schools, malls, etc. you likely would deal with the Indians on the reservation like Israel is Palestine.

The only thing I would like to add is that arab countries have been left pretty much to fend for themselves. We either ignored them or tried to manipulate them neith has worked and they resent it. Who is to say that had we developed good productive relationships with them over the last 50 years things would not be different? They have been left to rot, their people are untrained and undereducated so they turn to the Quaran because it is all they have. They are led by self serving leaders that skew the Quaran just like Christians do to server their own self interests. So I think there may be some truth to your assertation that continued unrest is inevitable but I don't think it had to be that way. We created the conditions for it.


Oh and great discussion but not one that I am going to get upset about. I am very interested in your point of view on this and I may disagree but please don't take the personally.

 

[afterhours]

You sleep in the bed you made. I would not want to be kicked out of my home and displaced by the government because of my ethnicity either.

so...is it your belief that the attacks would stop is Israel left gaza?

what incentive does Israel have to leave, if the elected Palestinian gov. openly admits it wants the destruction of Israel?

 

[aussiekeeper]

What do you base this "right to exist" on? They overthrew an otherwise peaceful Palestine in 1948. They have created generations of refugees with an apartheid like state. They routinely collect and conduct industrial espionage against us. Our support of them has contributed to the alienation of the Arab world against us. Why we support them is beyond me.

Here is how it works, we send them money, arms, supplies, support, and they stick it up our rear ends, every time. That is Isreal, in a nutshell. There will NEVER be peace in the middle east, PERIOD.

There is an old story.........An old Jewish grandmother was walking her grandson on the beach. All of a sudden, a giant wave came and swept the grandson away. The old woman dropped to her knees and cried to God for his return. Te skies opened and God looked down upon her. She said "If you bring my grandson back, I will never ask anything of you again, ever." Another wave came and placed the boy gently next to his grandmother. The grandmother looked up and thanked God for his return. Then she said " By the way, he was wearing a little red hat."

Get the jist? The Jews will never be happy with what they have, ever. They were given the land that they live on and they always want more.

The next act will be when Isreal attacks Iran and leaves the rest of the world to clean up that mess for them too. I say cut the ties and let natural selection be the deciding vote.........................

Flame me if you want, but I'm not changing my mind..............

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Wow all good points.
I brought it up cuz I literally thought I was gonna be attacked this morning .

I like the discussion .
I want to hear what others say because no matter what when a guy named Saiid opens his mouth on Israel he is instantly labeled and anti Semite .
It is diff for me to say anything because of that .
I am forever tagged even though I am in the middle on this .

First the creation of Israel is a result of the Balfour Act.
Palestine had been a British colony up until .
Many many acts of terrorism against the British were committed by men who are in power now.
Rabin, Sharon and others were freedom fighters for their cause.
As a result of constant violence against them and a need to relocate ones who still desired a homeland the map was redrawn. 1000s were displaced.
Land that had been in posssession of families for thousands of yrs was taken and given to another.
Simple question : If two outside foreign nations knocked on your door and told you to leave because they were going to give it to your enemy how would you feel ?
Long bitter hatred .

Second while it is convenient to blame our support of Israel on the Arabs hate for us I don't believe it to be the cause.
Our foreign policy is the cause . Constant dropping of bombs on innocent people is where it comes from . Sure we are at war but you have to understand the mentality of ones we oppose. Everytime Al Jazeera shows a dead child as a result of an American bomb irreparable harm is done.

Third. I too just don't get our constant unwavering support in the light of UN resolutions against Israel. It is not like they cannot take care of themselves.
As mentioned we give and they take never giving back.
Weapon systems we have given them they have improved upon and will not share the improvements with us.

Fourth the Holocaust was well...indescribable. Attempted race removal is bad .
But it is not the only time in history millions have been rounded up and murdered. Stalin murdered just as many if not more Armenians but we are not constantly reminded of it. I only wonder why we are constantly reminded of this one event when others similar have happened throughout history.
I wonder why the holocaust it seems is the reason why we are never allowed to find fault with Israel.
Because of the Holocaust we are constantly expected to feel sorry for them and accept their misdoings.

Fifth it is a chicken and an egg.
Rockets are fired and then retalliation occurs with targeteted assasinations and destruction of city blocks .
I think that Israel obv has right to defend itself and they have right to lash out and mess some folks up should need be but when they drop white phosphur bombs on women and children and the whole world condemns them they should be held accountable. A few unguided rockets land in a playground and whole cities are leveled in retaliation . It's not retalliation. It's an effort to destroy the infrastructure of the ones you live next to.

I don't think peace will ever happen and I don't think a second state will ever occur. Israel will not allow another governing body so close.
Islam is a religion with many facets but it is one of the few that acknowledges others. It preaches acceptance and not war. Sure there are many verses about killing the infidels but these can be likened to our Old Testament. A more violent reflection . When the Christians sacked Jerusalem they murdered every man woman and child.
When Saladin retook it he had every right and motive to do same but instead he allowed the Christians to stay and did not harm one after the fighting had stopped. Many incidents on both sides but I don't beleive we would be forever fighting Islam as some think . They have no interest. 5000 yrs and they are still simple folk. Just want to be left alone is all.
Trouble is the western world can't stay out !

Sorry for the long post but this is a subject that requires discussion and explanation , not smilies or quick comments .

 

[m_ridgeway]

There is an old story.........An old Jewish grandmother was walking her grandson on the beach. All of a sudden, a giant wave came and swept the grandson away. The old woman dropped to her knees and cried to God for his return. Te skies opened and God looked down upon her. She said "If you bring my grandson back, I will never ask anything of you again, ever." Another wave came and placed the boy gently next to his grandmother. The grandmother looked up and thanked God for his return. Then she said " By the way, he was wearing a little red hat."

Get the jist? The Jews will never be happy with what they have, ever. They were given the land that they live on and they always want more.

thats pretty wild man. i think that statement needs some modification to make you not seem like a racist but, maybe you are against the jews. when i went to NY and worked i met alot of jewish people and they were people just like you and me.

but the whole they take and take on the isreal side i can agree with.

The next act will be when Isreal attacks Iran and leaves the rest of the world to clean up that mess for them too. I say cut the ties and let natural selection be the deciding vote.........................

i totally agree with this. we need to stop world policing and politicians need to keep their opinions from the media and to themselves.

 

[aussiekeeper]

Don't care what your name is, to me you are an American, I am supposing that is the reason you are here, huh? If you see Isreal as is really is, that doesn't make you an anti-semite. It makes you a clear thinker.

No, there will never be peace in that region, ever.

Your point on the holocaust, good. Others have been erased also, even Christians. The jews want sympathy forever, Somehow they believe that if they can continue to get sympathy, they will have the world on their side.
But the world is getting wary of the alligator tears...................

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Aussiekeepers story is a bit harsh but take it from one who dealt daily with them selling Lincolns he is correct they are never happy !
BUT
I also owned a Mid East bakery in Nashville where the only folks who came in were Iraqis relocated after the gulf war and others.
Talk about some complaining mofos !

Both Arabs and Jews are throughout history known to have been the best dealmakers !
Other races stand out for their qualities but it was common tactic here for folks to bring in their Jewish neighbor to do the negotiating !

In all three religions Christianity, Judaism and Islam the Jews and Arabs have always been the moneychangers .

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

The term anti Semite is another strange thing.

What other race of people has a term like this .

Talk bad about the Russians , what do they call you .......
Talk bad about the Chinese , what do they call you .......
Talk bad about any other race , what do they call you ......
but open your mouth in a how should I say ,a questioning manner toward Israel and BAMM your labeled ?

 

[afterhours]

Q: when Israel does attack Iran, aren't they just doing what we(US GOV.) want to....but cannot?


I always thought one of the reason we are allied with Israel is because they will do things we cannot. The President can publicly denounce thier bombing of Iran's nuclear complex's....while selling them the weapons to do it thru private defense companies.

however, Israel is not controlled by us. This can appear that they un-grateful at times. In the end Israel understands that they must protect themselves and cannot rely on US foriegn policy to do it for them.


2nd Q: in your opinion, is this really about religion? or is it more about the West taking land from people, and thier fight to regain it.

 

[Rauzer]

Who cares about Biden??

What is the cost going to be on the group buy for the Corner Shot??

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Available only to LEOs with demo letter or dept purchase.

I do believe it is at it's core about religion.
Both beleive Jerusalem must be held in order for the second coming of eachs perspective Messiah to occur.
Both have desires to reconstruct great temples/mosques on same location .

From wiki since it's quicker:
The Temple Mount (Hebrew: הַר הַבַּיִת‎, Har haBáyit), also known as Mount Moriah and by Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary (Arabic: الحرم القدسي الشريف‎, al-haram al-qudsī ash-sharīf), is a religious site in the Old City of Jerusalem.

According to Jewish tradition, it was from here that the world expanded into its present form and from where God gathered the dust used to create the first man, Adam. It was the place God chose to "dwell", hence the construction of two Jewish Temples at the site. Traditionally, it is believed that a Third and final Temple will also be located here. The Mount is considered the holiest site in Judaism and due to this, many Jews will not set foot on the Mount itself.

Among Muslims, the Mount is widely considered to be the third holiest site in Islam. Revered as the Noble Sanctuary and the destination of Muhammad's journey to Jerusalem and ascent to heaven, the site is also associated with Jewish biblical prophets who are also venerated in Islam. The al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock, the oldest extant Islamic structure in the world, currently stand on the site.[1]

In light of the dual claims of both the Islamic and Jewish faiths, it is one of the most contested religious sites in the world. Controlled by Israel since 1967, both Israel and the Palestinian Authority claim sovereignty over the site, which remains a major focal point of the Arab-Israeli conflict.[2] A Muslim council, known as the Muslim Waqf, manages the site. The Israeli government enforces a controversial ban on prayer by non-Muslim visitors.

 

[aussiekeeper]

To me religion is a pain in the arse and I stopped believing in the myth when I was teen. There is no proof either way about God or any other supreme being. I believe religion was created by men to control the masses. To give primal people a sense of some kind of rules to go by to get along. However, like most things, it just got out of hand. The bible makes for a good story, but I don't believe a word of it as anything factual. More hatred, killing, rape, pillaging and wars have taken place over religion, more than for any other reason. This is the only subject for which I ever could be called a progressive.
On any other subject, I am conservative. I don't bash anyone that believes as long as they don't push it off on me. I just happen to believe the whole religion thing is a waste of time. Imagine, if there were no religion, how many wars in history could have been avoided. And that is only one scenario.......

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Aussie while it may be diff if not impossible to prove there is a God numerous religions acknowledge that there was a man named Jesus of Nazereth.
Islamic verses make many refs to him .
Whether or not he performed miracles I can't say but I do believe he lived.
Whether or not he is the son of God I cant say .

Also many things made mention of in the Bible have shown to be true and factual so this is why folks tend to believe the rest of the story .

 

[J'Man]

Blanca, you do realize you're turning into the Jerry Springer of the org?

Blanca's next thread.... is Obama the anti-christ?

Just kidding buddy. Your threads are a trip though. They do seem to :stirpot: a bit. Definitely keeps things interesting around here.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

First I rather think of myself as Maury !

Second no need for thread cuz answer is yes.

Third I do like stirring it up cuz it stimulates your noodle !

Goes way back to St Pauls Christian Academy when I asked my teacher if she believed in aliens.
I think her mouth is still open !