Rear Break Question

[kml]

Trail braking:

application of the rear brake entering and MID turn to upset the balance of the bike essentially putting more bias to the front tire and allowing the bike to lean more (as rear tire tends to slide towards the outside of the turn).. in extreme cases "backing the bike in" to the corner.. The net effect is to get the bike to change direction faster by forcing a higher lean angle in a shorter period and getting the front tire turned in a new direction quicker as the bike pivots..

Viewed head on, you can see the rear tire outside the track of the front tire.. I guess the same effect as a powerslide but more of a controlled brake slide..

Fine in a controlled environment but for a street rider on a typical street? this is a lot different than just using the rear brakes..

It took me a bit of time to get it down on the Busa (awful heavy and momentum gets in the way) and the tires had to be pretty warm.. The trail braking did not work well at all when the tires were cold as it would pretty quickly break into an uncontrolled slide.. that was when the weight of the bike was the big problem.. Just strikes me as an impossible set of conditions to be safe on the street..

S4L does it all the time? more power to him.. I think it will get guys hurt myself...

Thanks!

cheers
ken

 

[UncleSteve]

Use your front brake and live to ride another day.

Your motorcycles front brake provides over 70% of the braking power!


Individual Motorcycle Safety Guide

Please don't tell me you think ABATE are experts on motorcycle riding and safety.
Have you ever met them?

 

[Pardini]

Trail braking as I understand it is braking up to the apex and progressively letting off the brakes (trailing the brakes off) so at the apex you have zero braking. The idea is to compress the front suspension which steepens the geometry and that lets the bike turn quicker. I don't think locking the back is a desired result in any case. If your locking the brakes mid turn you've already fugged up. Chances are you need to turn it quicker and get back on the gas, not chop the throttle . If the back is sliding (not on the brakes) you definitely need to gas it. Chop and your going over the top.

 

[Bosshound]

I ALMOST Never USE the Rear Brake. Unless as a Last Resort (Emergency Braking) or an OH **** Moment

 

[tegbusa]

I use the back brake mostly in slow traffic.

 

[Pardini]

I ALMOST Never USE the Rear Brake. Unless as a Last Resort (Emergency Braking) or an OH **** Moment

The problem with that is when you need it the most your not practiced with it. How do you know how much you can abuse it if you don't have a feel for when it's going to lock?

 

[Mr Bogus]

The problem with that is when you need it the most your not practiced with it. How do you know how much you can abuse it if you don't have a feel for when it's going to lock?

If you are at a point "you need it most" I doubt it is going to make much difference how many times you have used it.. fronts? different story..

 

[Bosshound]

The problem with that is when you need it the most your not practiced with it. How do you know how much you can abuse it if you don't have a feel for when it's going to lock?

I understand what you Mean RUSS but if I am in the Middle of a Turn and Realize I am Going in a Little TOO Hot I just Lean More and Let off the Gas a Little.

 

[semperfi]

I use front and rear brakes, but I modulate them according to the situation. In over 35 years of riding, I have never lost control by using the rear excessively. IMHO a good rider develops the skill to use both properly. They have two for a reason.

 

[Pardini]

I use front and rear brakes, but I modulate them according to the situation. In over 35 years of riding, I have never lost control by using the rear excessively. IMHO a good rider develops the skill to use both properly. They have two for a reason.

True That. Funny when I got my first bike the general consensous seemed to be watch out for that front brake use it too much and you'll crash.

Shortly after getting it I had one of those moments like in the vid. Skidded the back between a line of 3 or 4 cars at a red light. Don't know what I was looking at, but when my attention returned to where it should have been I was suckin' seat up my crack. Steered it between the cars into the intersection crossed up like a MX'er. The light was red, the rear tire was screamin' in a cloud of smoke. Found an opening and punched thru it un scathed. I still feel that lump in my throat when I think about it, but it did get me practicing stoppin'.

 

[dadofthree]

What back brake??? You mean the bike has a rear brake... never use it...

Well, I guess I hardly ever use it... I will only use it when I go from a paved road to something off ride, like on a pull off where Kilboy takes pictures. I don't want to give him more opportunity to capture the lack of riding skills I have....

 

[dadofthree]

Seems to me that you would want to be able to use all your braking potential, especially in an emergency. That 10 - 30 % braking might make a difference.

I use both

 

[Tufbusa]

Trail braking:

application of the rear brake entering and MID turn to upset the balance of the bike essentially putting more bias to the front tire and allowing the bike to lean more (as rear tire tends to slide towards the outside of the turn).. in extreme cases "backing the bike in" to the corner.. The net effect is to get the bike to change direction faster by forcing a higher lean angle in a shorter period and getting the front tire turned in a new direction quicker as the bike pivots..

Viewed head on, you can see the rear tire outside the track of the front tire.. I guess the same effect as a powerslide but more of a controlled brake slide..

Fine in a controlled environment but for a street rider on a typical street? this is a lot different than just using the rear brakes..

It took me a bit of time to get it down on the Busa (awful heavy and momentum gets in the way) and the tires had to be pretty warm.. The trail braking did not work well at all when the tires were cold as it would pretty quickly break into an uncontrolled slide.. that was when the weight of the bike was the big problem.. Just strikes me as an impossible set of conditions to be safe on the street..

S4L does it all the time? more power to him.. I think it will get guys hurt myself...

You are joking, Right?

Most beginners have this misconception when they hear the term "Trail Braking" it means using the rear (Trailing tire) brake. It does not. Trail braking means the continuation of braking after the bike has been tipped in. Most of the really fast guys do this. Absolutly none of them use the rear brake unless they are backing it in. Even then, it's just a tap to break the tire loose.

The term "Backing it in" simply means sliding the rear tire to the outside. It was the infamous Gary McCoy who first brought this little trick to Moto GP. This also has little to do with the rear brake, it's done with the throttle. The rear brake can be tapped to get the rear tire to break loose and then it's all throttle spinning the rear, not skidding it.

"Power Slide" is sliding both tires, not just the rear.

If the Biscuit Man really can slide his busa consistantly through the corners using the rear brake without crashing, I'd drive all the way across the country just to get that on film. And I'll pay for the track day! That's a review worth cash!

This is what Kieth Code has to say on braking issues in his book "Twist of the Wrist II".

The obvious mathematics of the situation are that the front wheel can do 100 percent of the braking and the back at that point just locks up no matter who you are. Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick, clean stopping; then, if you still have a use for the rear, go ahead and use it. But realize that the rear brake is the source of a huge number of crashes both on and off the track. I'll leave the final decision up to you.

Kieth goes on to say; It is my recommendation that you master using only the front brake except when riding in slippery conditions. Locking the back brake also puts the bike out of control. The rear wheel, spinning, povides the vast majority of stability for the bike from the steering head back. In other words, everything but the front-end is kept stable by the gyro force of the spinning rear wheel.

So either Mr. Biscuit or Kieth Code is full of BS? You decide!

 

[GSXcite]

Of course you want to use both brakes if you are in an emergency stop situation. But if you are in that situation in the middle of a turn you are in deep shid!

 

[Tufbusa]

Of course you want to use both brakes if you are in an emergency stop situation. But if you are in that situation in the middle of a turn you are in deep shid!

This is true if you are on a Goldwing but not so for a sport bike. The 70 - 30 theory taught by the MSF is very true for the cruiser community as the bike is to heavy and long to transfer 100% of the weight to the front tire. On a sport bike, including your busa, maximum braking with the front brake will transfer all the weight to the front and the rear is either just barely touching or just off the pavement. At this point, like Kieth Code says, the rear brake locks up no matter who you are.

If you can effectively use the rear brake in an emergency stop, then you are not using the front brake to it's full potential. (Sport bikes only) And you will indeed take more distance to stop using both brakes.

The first thing I tell students when they show up at the track, "We are not using the rear brake today". I have personnally witnessed many crashes as a result of rear brake use. If they would have just stayed off the rear brake, they would have been fine.

If you lock the rear tire while hard on the front brake, you are begging for a high side.

 

[cipher5791]

"I was suckin' seat up my crack" Pardini, I love that.

I use both of them myself in stopping for lights and in oh s**t moments. What I usually do is start out with the front and then I press the back in right before I come to a complete stop.

Never, ever, ever, ever, do I use either one in a turn or curve.

 

[micbusathens]

after reading what I feel to be tons of bad advice, like I said...learn to control the braking and use the back brake effectively. In stock form the back brake has plenty of power to lock the rear tire under decel hence upgrading it is pretty pointless. Plenty of professional riders "back it in" or trail brake very controlled and very effectively. There is a good reason the brake is there. On loose substrate, the back brake is crucial because many times the front brake will cause the front end to wash out when it locks. Can't begin to tell you the number of guys who claim they dropped their bikes on stones because its impossible to ride a streetbike there because the front ends wash out...this is the real reason.

Practice and knowledge will make you a better rider, not excuses and short cuts.

+100000000

 

[Mr Bogus]

where did I advocate the use of the rear brake? I in fact said the practice questionable as the rear tire comes off the ground under extreme braking.. Codes mantra is enter slow/exit fast.. and that works for me just fine..

And yep, I took the big old bike to a parking lot, got the tires hot and started backing it to the turns after the rubber got to temp.. really not all that hard to do but controlling it in a controlled situation vs on the street? yea right, doing it on the track? gimme some hours, I know I can back a bike into a corner..

 

[Tufbusa]

Trail braking:

application of the rear brake entering and MID turn to upset the balance of the bike essentially putting more bias to the front tire and allowing the bike to lean more (as rear tire tends to slide towards the outside of the turn).. in extreme cases "backing the bike in" to the corner.. QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you not advocating using the rear brake to trail brake and "Back it in" ?

Most guys who learn the art of "Backing it in" and it is indeed an art, learn on a dirt track. Most guys who can do it effectively learned while flat tracking then carried it over to the asphalt.

No one and I repeat, NO ONE learns to back a bike into the corners in a paved parking lot! You can take all the time you want on the track and I can assure you the "Backing it in" process will cost you numerous crashes.

I'd suggest you sign up at Rich Oliver's Mystery School, located in Fresno, if you are really interested in learning to "Back it in". You'll spend three days of torture on a 125cc dirt bike and you will crash at least 50 times. By the end of the third day you'll be so sore you'll rejoyce when it's over. So get yourself into good shape before you go. If I remember correctly the cost is around a grand and it is money well spent.

If you decide to give it a go on your own using your beloved busa, I'd suggest you buy at least a dozen spares because you will total most of them before you reach competency!

 

[dadofthree]

I don't know guys. I understand the part where if the rear tire is in the air it's worthless, but never using it; I don't know. I've had a few uh-oh moments where the arse locked and I simply got off of it slightly to correct the issue.

I absolutely agree with the rear brake potentially causing an accident.