Road Rage this Morning... Yup

Sorry Mrs. R, I gotta side with BT on this one.
Once you take the incident out of context and
the Defense Attorney puts his spin on this
getting the driver convicted would be pretty
hard. Remember rev wouldn't be there to tell his
side. the driver could say he thought Rev had a
knife. Yada Yada Yada. the jury woulsn't have
any counter information. Rev got lucky on several
accounts. Alls well that ends well!


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Raider out.
Oh no - that wasn't my point at all.  I would never aim to put the horn-blower as the only one at fault... in fact I'd have to side with the law on my dearest being the blockhead in that one: "Yes officer, he was an ass that morning.  Take him away."
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My beef was more with BT's comment implying that he would "have no problem" with killing someone who punched his car, and would feel it was justified, as was expressed in the initial post which got me all ruffled up.  We've wandered far down the path from my original point.

Regardless of the situation, Rev would stil be the instigator by all reasonable standards, and the blame as the situation actually occurred is wholly my hubby's.  In the scenario presented by BT, however, the driver would have actually pulled a gun and shot my spouse through the unbroken car window.  At this point, I've got to believe that some blame certainly lies on the shoulder of the honker - almost any way I look at it... it's an unecessary use of lethal force.

Scenario:  At a traffic light, Guy A is stopped in front of Guy B.  The light turns green, and for some reason (doesn't matter what), Guy A doesn't go.  Guy B blows his horn.  Guy A gets out of his car, walks back and punches Guy B's window while yelling at him.  The window does NOT break.  Guy B then pulls a gun (concealed, BTW) and shoots Guy A dead through the previously unbroken (now shattered) car window. And several other witnesses (including the embarrassed, but now bereaved wife) saw the events unfold in this manner.

Guy A is certainly not blameless... but neither is Guy B in this case.  Guy A is guilty of at least disorderly conduct... possibly aggravated assault (dunno for sure).  Guy B is guilty of at least Manslaughter - I don't think the situation merits enough of a threat for Guy B to successfully claim self-defense necessitating the death of the aggressor.

So in a generic situation, as presented above, BOTH parties would be guilty - and the honker isn't "justified" in killing the non-moving, short-tempered a$$hole.

In my original complaint, I was further put off by the fact that the person implying that that this sort of killin' was, in fact, a cop.

HOWEVER:  I think BT and I have already reached our conclusions, and I think we understand each other... As implied by WWJD... let's not take this thread too far.  I really only intended a jibe at BT 'cause I figured he was just talkin' trash and wouldn't ACTUALLY have felt fully justified in killing another human in such a fashion.  So I only really intended to jab him in the ribs a couple of times  
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Can you imagine how stupid I looked?  Out there walloping the side of a Mini-van?  Dress shirt tucked in, pointy beard a pointing?  I imagine myself sitting a car or two back from this scene, looking at some dude walloping the side of a mini-van and saying to the Wife... "Look as this Fuggin Idiot right here..."  "Get back in your car jack-ass..."  
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Oh god, I think I just peed my pants!!



Dooooood... couple more weeks, OK? You'll feel much better then.



Mrs Revlis- I'm sorry. You need some darker sunglasses to hide behind? Maybe some of those Elvis shades from the Las Vegas days?
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I'm just glad he didn't get out and stomp your ass...
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Yeah man if he had cashed in those wolf tickets you were selling then the topic would have been:

Road Rage this Morning...Yup
Got my as kick severly
I can't help but laugh my arse off when I'm mentally picturing Rev and his ordeal in the smilie picture. Just makes me think of the ol' Friday (the movie series) moniker... "YOU GOT KNOCKED THE FUGG OUT!!!"
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LOLOLOL!!! Good catch on the Friday movie scene!!!
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Sorry Mrs. R, I gotta side with BT on this one.
Once you take the incident out of context and
the Defense Attorney puts his spin on this
getting the driver convicted would be pretty
hard. Remember rev wouldn't be there to tell his
side. the driver could say he thought Rev had a
knife. Yada Yada Yada. the jury woulsn't have
any counter information. Rev got lucky on several
accounts. Alls well that ends well!


pirate.gif
Raider out.
Oh no - that wasn't my point at all. I would never aim to put the horn-blower as the only one at fault... in fact I'd have to side with the law on my dearest being the blockhead in that one: "Yes officer, he was an ass that morning. Take him away."
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My beef was more with BT's comment implying that he would "have no problem" with killing someone who punched his car, and would feel it was justified, as was expressed in the initial post which got me all ruffled up. We've wandered far down the path from my original point.

Regardless of the situation, Rev would stil be the instigator by all reasonable standards, and the blame as the situation actually occurred is wholly my hubby's. In the scenario presented by BT, however, the driver would have actually pulled a gun and shot my spouse through the unbroken car window. At this point, I've got to believe that some blame certainly lies on the shoulder of the honker - almost any way I look at it... it's an unecessary use of lethal force.

Scenario: At a traffic light, Guy A is stopped in front of Guy B. The light turns green, and for some reason (doesn't matter what), Guy A doesn't go. Guy B blows his horn. Guy A gets out of his car, walks back and punches Guy B's window while yelling at him. The window does NOT break. Guy B then pulls a gun (concealed, BTW) and shoots Guy A dead through the previously unbroken (now shattered) car window. And several other witnesses (including the embarrassed, but now bereaved wife) saw the events unfold in this manner.

Guy A is certainly not blameless... but neither is Guy B in this case. Guy A is guilty of at least disorderly conduct... possibly aggravated assault (dunno for sure). Guy B is guilty of at least Manslaughter - I don't think the situation merits enough of a threat for Guy B to successfully claim self-defense necessitating the death of the aggressor.

So in a generic situation, as presented above, BOTH parties would be guilty - and the honker isn't "justified" in killing the non-moving, short-tempered a$$hole.

In my original complaint, I was further put off by the fact that the person implying that that this sort of killin' was, in fact, a cop.

HOWEVER: I think BT and I have already reached our conclusions, and I think we understand each other... As implied by WWJD... let's not take this thread too far. I really only intended a jibe at BT 'cause I figured he was just talkin' trash and wouldn't ACTUALLY have felt fully justified in killing another human in such a fashion. So I only really intended to jab him in the ribs a couple of times
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Well, to finish this off on my end (finally, huh?
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) and put my view of it in a nutshell...

I'm all about accountability. If you bring the fight to someone else, the whole thing is your fault. You initiated it. There's a possibility that NONE of it would have even happened had you not made that first physical move that escalated it past gestures or words. Anything that happens after you become the initial physical agressor should rest squarely on your shoulders. The person who beats you down or takes you clean out may not be in the right, but your actions brought it on. I just can't see sharing the overall blame. I say hold them accountable if they step outside the boundaries, but I can't lay blame on anybody except the one who started the whole thing to begin with...


Blah blah blah... I'm done now.
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Surprising viewpoint BT. I follow the concept - I just don't fully buy it. Basically, you're saying that ANY physical agression deserves ANY response - regardless. Thus you would be jutified in shooting the man who pushed you at the local bar - he started it. I would be justified in bashing out the brains of the schoolyard bully with a golf club because they started it. A husband is justified when he beats his wife to death with a 2x4 because she slapped him first. A father is justified in lynching his son when the son punches him in a fit of teenage angst.

Even further than that - you've said that you allow ANY response to attempted or implied, but not actually successful violence. So if the wife TRIED to slap her husband, he could beat her to death. And if the son TRIED to punch his father, he could be lynched. The angry neighbor who throws a rock at your window deserves to be shot.

I have to disagree - and I don't believe that the law EVER intended that a completely unwarranted amount of violence in reaction to any meager threat be considered "justifiable".
 
Surprising viewpoint BT. I follow the concept - I just don't fully buy it. Basically, you're saying that ANY physical agression deserves ANY response - regardless.

~snip~

I have to disagree - and I don't believe that the law EVER intended that a completely unwarranted amount of violence in reaction to any meager threat be considered "justifiable".
Ok, so we're not done...
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That's not what I said at all. I said that the initial agressor is to blame for whatever happens after their first act of agression. If they hadn't acted out first it's possible that NOTHING would have happened at all... I didn't say they deserved whatever they got no matter how extreme, I just said they ASKED for it. That make better sense? I'm not saying an eye for a fingernail. I'm just sayin' that by becoming the initial physical agressor you shoulder all the BLAME.

It's the initial agressor's fault that anything bad happens at all. Without an initial agressor NOTHING dangerous happens to anybody in these situations. Posturing and spoutin' off doesn't hurt anybody. Whoever steps to the plate first physically starts the game. BLAME and FAULT are not decided in criminal proceedings though. However, those things can be decided in civil proceedings.

Guilt however is an entirely different subject. In the scenarios you used as examples, both parties could, and should be found GUILTY of any crimes they commit and they should be punished accordingly. I'm not saying I want to grant full immunity from the law to the initial victim. That makes NO sense at all. Your examples point out the absurdity of that line of thought. My whole point is more of a philosophy that I live by I guess.

The way I see it I get what I ask for when I'm out of line. I don't blame others when I get what's coming to me. If I ask for trouble and get more than I bargained for I suck it up... lesson learned. I wouldn't cry about how I only punched a guys window (totally out of line... we all agree with that.) but I got shot in the face. I wouldn't have been shot if I had stayed in my friggin' car and controlled my temper!?!

Getting shot was my FAULT and nobody is to BLAME but me. Is the other guy GUILTY of Manslaughter? Maybe, maybe not... It's highly likely that I placed him in fear of his safety, or even his life, giving him every right to take my ragin' arse out. A person in that situation can't possibly be expected to read the rager's mind and know that they don't intend to do harm and that they're just gonna show their ass. No friggin' way!!!
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By law, I don't think he'd be found GUILTY of anything. On the other hand, I think a good attorney may likely tear him a new one in civil proceedings. Either way, it's MY OWN DAMNED FAULT that my brains are decorating the sidewalk now. I asked for trouble and got excactly that, in spades...

So, no, I'm not for full criminal immunity for the secondary agressor. You're takin' me totally wrong on that. Neither can I hold him "at fault" or "to blame" for anything that happened though. I'd have no problem being on a jury and finding him "guilty" if his force was excessive, but in my mind I still wouldn't see him sharing any BLAME for what happened. What's happening here is that I am separating the elements of BLAME, FAULT, and GUILT and you're apparently not.
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<!--EDIT|BulletTrain
Reason for Edit: None given...|1106248434 -->

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MRS. REVLIS,  BULLETRAIN

TAKE YOUR DEBATE OFF MY THREAD!!!!!



<!--EDIT|Revlis
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Can you imagine how stupid I looked?  Out there walloping the side of a Mini-van?  Dress shirt tucked in, pointy beard a pointing?  I imagine myself sitting a car or two back from this scene, looking at some dude walloping the side of a mini-van and saying to the Wife... "Look as this Fuggin Idiot right here..."  "Get back in your car jack-ass..."  
ices_rofl.gif


Oh god, I think I just peed my pants!!



Dooooood... couple more weeks, OK? You'll feel much better then.



Mrs Revlis- I'm sorry. You need some darker sunglasses to hide behind? Maybe some of those Elvis shades from the Las Vegas days?
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I figured you would be able to relate to this in a special way...
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Yeah, Nothing like getting out there early to Scare the ever lovin outta some dude with a horn in a Chrysler Minivan...
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Agreed Michelle... Let's go back to bashing Rev.  Here VA - you can have the first shot...
Aww, I don't think I can do it...he's so fragile and all...I don't want to be the reason for his next "incident"...
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Besides, I'm alone here in thinking that the guy acting like an idiot behind him, laying on the horn and such, needed just the smallest reality check...I know, I'm swimming upstream here, but I bet that guy won't be doing that for a long while, and since the final outcome of all of this wasn't tragic, I kind of like that...
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Agreed Michelle... Let's go back to bashing Rev. Here VA - you can have the first shot...
Aww, I don't think I can do it...he's so fragile and all...I don't want to be the reason for his next "incident"...
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Besides, I'm alone here in thinking that the guy acting like an idiot behind him, laying on the horn and such, needed just the smallest reality check...I know, I'm swimming upstream here, but I bet that guy won't be doing that for a long while, and since the final outcome of all of this wasn't tragic, I kind of like that...
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Nah, you're not alone Michelle. The guy needed fixin'. It's just that fixin' him ain't the smartest thing to do. What he really needed was to have that horn shoved right up his... Ok, I'll stop there. As I said before, not many things piss me off more than for some jerk behind me to blow the horn because "I'm in his way." when he couldn't go anywhere if he got past me.
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I have been there - more than once.  I had major rage issues in my 20's.  I think it was symptomatic of how unhappy I was at the time with my life in general.  
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You know the drill bro.  
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Charging someone's car and striking their window is an overt threat.  I am glad A) the window didn't break and that B) the other doofus wasn't armed - because if both A) and B) had happened at the same time your wife'd be writing us now about how you took two in the chest in an act of road rage and where we could send flowers for your memorial service.

Had the glass broken an argument could be made in a court of law that you left the safety of your vehicle, approached the other vehicle and proceeded to force your way in with intent to assault or even kill.  At that point, a sensible person would reasonably fear for their life and once the window broke they would be reasonably justified to blow a hole in your torso big enough to throw a football through.  None of that would matter until the Grand Jury though, and you'd be long buried by then.
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I avoid road rage incidents like the plague.  Yell at me, flip me off, call me naughty names, just let me leave.  Threaten my life or the life and well being of my wife however and you'll be explaining your actions to St. Pete at the Gates while I explain mine to a grand jury.
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