Russia and Ukraine

[Bumblebee]

I look at file footage and see all the snow and ice the Ukrainians are fighting in and don't miss that at all...one guy's teeth were chattering so hard that there's no way he could be effective in aiming his rifle...

It's one thing to pop outside, do something knowing full well you have a warm, comfortable house to come into, it's a whole other thing to know there's nowhere warm awaiting you...

I recall watching footage of the Battle for Bastogne and thinking this as well..

..........there's nothing good about warfare and even less when it's freezing outside.

 

[mark3evo]

I look at file footage and see all the snow and ice the Ukrainians are fighting in and don't miss that at all...one guy's teeth were chattering so hard that there's no way he could be effective in aiming his rifle...

It's one thing to pop outside, do something knowing full well you have a warm, comfortable house to come into, it's a whole other thing to know there's nowhere warm awaiting you...

I recall watching footage of the Battle for Bastogne and thinking this as well..

..........there's nothing good about warfare and even less when it's freezing outside.

warfare must have changed so much since your stint, on Reddit you see video footage of drones literally chasing individual soldiers around a tree, then the drone is exploded and end of the life

 

[Bumblebee]

warfare must have changed so much since your stint, on Reddit you see video footage of drones literally chasing individual soldiers around a tree, then the drone is exploded and end of the life

It has been a while since I was in combat......however......there is still the "blood and guts" of warfare that isn't shown as much....

These drones chasing around soldiers is just one part of a huge action......there is still lots of boots on the ground getting pounded by mortars and artillery and run down by tanks...

The US has very sophisticated anti-drone equipment that they won't give Ukraine for fear it will end up in Russian laboratories....drones can be jammed...the downside is the jammers are not particular as to who is being jammed......

There's still some infantry guy sitting cold and wet in a trench.....that will never change.

 

[Bumblebee]

This whole situation is slowly taking an ugly turn where the Russian dictator is being hoisted as the victim and Zelensky who led his people through an awful time is being heralded as an awful leader who did nothing for his people but squander billions of dollars....

Russia is seeing this new intervention as a victory for them.......and instead of being hounded for his war crimes, Putin will most likely get the contested areas handed to him.

 

[TallTom]

This whole situation is slowly taking an ugly turn where the Russian dictator is being hoisted as the victim and Zelensky who led his people through an awful time is being heralded as an awful leader who did nothing for his people but squander billions of dollars....

Russia is seeing this new intervention as a victory for them.......and instead of being hounded for his war crimes, Putin will most likely get the contested areas handed to him.

It's a tough spot to be in. Russia could feed resources into this war for decades. And we'd look like the losers by pulling out of funding it.
I don't think Ukraine will ever be a member of NATO. That's what gave heartburn to Russia in the first place. And I seriously doubt Putin would ever go to trial for any war crime. Ever.

And we don't have the balls to enforce embargoes or sanctions. China would just thumb their noses at us.

Meanwhile Russia just grinds Ukraine into dust eventually.

 

[Bumblebee]

It's a tough spot to be in. Russia could feed resources into this war for decades. And we'd look like the losers by pulling out of funding it.
I don't think Ukraine will ever be a member of NATO. That's what gave heartburn to Russia in the first place. And I seriously doubt Putin would ever go to trial for any war crime. Ever.

And we don't have the balls to enforce embargoes or sanctions. China would just thumb their noses at us.

Meanwhile Russia just grinds Ukraine into dust eventually.

I agree that something had to be done........but this latest rhetoric isn't the path that should be taken......

Whether Putin goes to any trial isn't negating the fact that he has been decreed a war criminal........the same as Saddam Hussein and other dictators of that ilk......

I'd say Russian losses are immense to the point of Putin having to empty out prisons to get soldiers and to go to a rogue state like North Korea.....

I'd say Russia is militarily hurting in a bad way and are looking forward to some sort of intervention to relieve them.......the US will hand them the victory ad give them everything they wanted unfortunately.......instead Putin should have been held accountable for his actions in invading another sovereign country....

 

[Red05]

the US will hand them the victory ad give them everything they wanted unfortunately.......instead Putin should have been held accountable for his actions in invading another sovereign country..

Half of this country hopes the world remembers what this country has stood for for 200+ years and not just the last month.

 

[TallTom]

I agree that something had to be done........but this latest rhetoric isn't the path that should be taken......

Whether Putin goes to any trial isn't negating the fact that he has been decreed a war criminal........the same as Saddam Hussein and other dictators of that ilk......

I'd say Russian losses are immense to the point of Putin having to empty out prisons to get soldiers and to go to a rogue state like North Korea.....

I'd say Russia is militarily hurting in a bad way and are looking forward to some sort of intervention to relieve them.......the US will hand them the victory ad give them everything they wanted unfortunately.......instead Putin should have been held accountable for his actions in invading another sovereign country....

There's a bit more surfacing now. Trump offered to negotiate a favorable outcome on Ukraine's behalf in exchange for the mineral rights to rare earth minerals that are located in Ukraine. Which Zalenski refused.

So we have Trump looking out for American interest in trying to recoup the billions we spent. And Zalenski has said no.

So Trump is going to let him think about that over the next week or so. Zalenski may re-consider his position. Lord knows he has been milking America for nearly 3 years. Now he doesn't like the tables being turned. He should be thrilled to hand over something of value to repay America for its gracious funding.

Now we cut a deal with Russia that I won't be surprised, will give us those mineral rights.

Unfortunately Zalanski has overplayed his American bleeding heart supporters.

I don't think this is over. I think Trump is just backing him into a corner. And I don't consider it bullying. I think Trump can change directions against Russia in a heartbeat. Whatever is better for America. What's clear to me is Trump win't throw money into these endless holes any longer. If America isn't getting a return on investment, investment ends!

It's about effin time!

 

[Bumblebee]

There's a bit more surfacing now. Trump offered to negotiate a favorable outcome on Ukraine's behalf in exchange for the mineral rights to rare earth minerals that are located in Ukraine. Which Zalenski refused.

So we have Trump looking out for American interest in trying to recoup the billions we spent. And Zalenski has said no.

So Trump is going to let him think about that over the next week or so. Zalenski may re-consider his position. Lord knows he has been milking America for nearly 3 years. Now he doesn't like the tables being turned. He should be thrilled to hand over something of value to repay America for its gracious funding.

Now we cut a deal with Russia that I won't be surprised, will give us those mineral rights.

Unfortunately Zalanski has overplayed his American bleeding heart supporters.

I don't think this is over. I think Trump is just backing him into a corner. And I don't consider it bullying. I think Trump can change directions against Russia in a heartbeat. Whatever is better for America. What's clear to me is Trump win't throw money into these endless holes any longer. If America isn't getting a return on investment, investment ends!

It's about effin time!

I see there is no point in discussing this with you as your mind is very clearly made up.

I know what I'd do if I were Zelensky.......

 

[TallTom]

I see there is no point in discussing this with you as your mind is very clearly made up.

I know what I'd do if I were Zelensky.......

To the extent that America has been the world's ATM machine, yes I'm in agreement with Trump. It needs to stop. To the extent that he's aligning with Russia and stating undeniably wrong facts, I don't agree with him. Ukraine has become the pawn in this at this point. If Europe wants to rally and form the backbone of their defensive power, I'm good with that too. I am not anti Ukraine and Pro Russia. I'm pro get us the hell out of these money pits. Somebody will come out a loser in that. I'd prefer it not be us.

 

[Bumblebee]

To the extent that America has been the world's ATM machine, yes I'm in agreement with Trump. It needs to stop. To the extent that he's aligning with Russia and stating undeniably wrong facts, I don't agree with him. Ukraine has become the pawn in this at this point. If Europe wants to rally and form the backbone of their defensive power, I'm good with that too. I am not anti Ukraine and Pro Russia. I'm pro get us the hell out of these money pits. Somebody will come out a loser in that. If prefer it not be us.

I get that......

However........the US war machine has been getting a lot out of the war in Ukraine.....they've been testing equipment in a near-peer battlefield and able to fine tune it.....

...........and countries around the world have been dumping money into American companies buying equipment either for themselves or for Ukraine.

The main issue I have is that Trump and his administration has been calling Zelensky a dictator by not having elections.......is he supposed to set up polling stations in trench lines? His country is defending itself from an aggressive enemy.....the enemy of the west.......and something decent countries with any sort of conscious can't stand by and not help......

It's a real fine line between providing high tech weaponry and actually placing boots on the ground though.....

One thing about all this is......by having the west provide weapons, supplies and training, they sure kicked the crap out of the Russians almost to the point of making them weak and combat ineffective........I've seen reports were some analysts are saying Russia is preparing to attack Europe and I ask "with what?" He has taken old tanks and artillery out of war stocks and pressed the into service rust and all.....and western tanks are obliterating them.

What I'm really surprised is there hasn't been a massive coup to overthrow Putin....that is what surprises me the most

 

[TallTom]

I get that......

However........the US war machine has been getting a lot out of the war in Ukraine.....they've been testing equipment in a near-peer battlefield and able to fine tune it.....

...........and countries around the world have been dumping money into American companies buying equipment either for themselves or for Ukraine.

The main issue I have is that Trump and his administration has been calling Zelensky a dictator by not having elections.......is he supposed to set up polling stations in trench lines? His country is defending itself from an aggressive enemy.....the enemy of the west.......and something decent countries with any sort of conscious can't stand by and not help......

It's a real fine line between providing high tech weaponry and actually placing boots on the ground though.....

One thing about all this is......by having the west provide weapons, supplies and training, they sure kicked the crap out of the Russians almost to the point of making them weak and combat ineffective........I've seen reports were some analysts are saying Russia is preparing to attack Europe and I ask "with what?" He has taken old tanks and artillery out of war stocks and pressed the into service rust and all.....and western tanks are obliterating them.

What I'm really surprised is there hasn't been a massive coup to overthrow Putin....that is what surprises me the most

All this is true. I have nothing to nullify that. But there are other factors to also consider. Russia's economy has grown from this war. Ours has not. China has been able to bolster its growth by buying Russian oil at heavily discounted prices. We've done nothing to stop that .

We've presented older F-16s to Ukraine and said don't use them offensively. And we haven't required anyone that donated a 16 to replace it with anything we offer. We should have sent A-10s over to that theatre of battle. CAS to front line fighting is what that plane is all about and does best. Low tech and cheap. We could have a decade of back orders for it. We have yet to show the world what an F-35 or 22 can do against Russia. Meanwhile Russia is selling SU-57s. Which shows to stack up pretty well against anything we can produce. I don't know how much of a market there is for heavy artillery tech. I readily admit I'm closer to airborne tech than ground based tech. But if this continues we continue to benefit less and less, while China and Russia benefit more and more.

And yeah Trump needs to keep his yap shut about calling anyone a dictator in this whole affair.

 

[Bumblebee]

All this is true. I have nothing to nullify that. But there are other factors to also consider. Russia's economy has grown from this war. Ours has not. China has been able to bolster its growth by buying Russian oil at heavily discounted prices. We've done nothing to stop that .

We've presented older F-16s to Ukraine and said don't use them offensively. And we haven't required anyone that donated a 16 to replace it with anything we offer. We should have sent A-10s over to that theatre of battle. CAS to front line fighting is what that plane is all about and does best. Low tech and cheap. We could have a decade of back orders for it. We have yet to show the world what an F-35 or 22 can do against Russia. Meanwhile Russia is selling SU-57s. Which shows to stack up pretty well against anything we can produce. I don't know how much of a market there is for heavy artillery tech. I readily admit I'm closer to airborne tech than ground based tech. But if this continues we continue to benefit less and less, while China and Russia benefit more and more.

And yeah Trump needs to keep his yap shut about calling anyone a dictator in this whole affair.

NATO and the west are benefiting from observing Russian forces (and now North Korean) in battle and then seeing how the Ukrainian drone units' effectiveness...

We are also learning the effectiveness of western armor, artillery and ground forces in several asymmetric scenarios.....

I kind of think the US was reserved in what they sent and very cautious at the level of tech that was presented so that the Russians were not able to study cutting edge systems.....I think A-10s weren't sent because it takes a long time to get pilots trained to conduct operations and Ukraine is short of pilots....the US doesn't export A10s and even as old as they are, they haven't been proven in a near-peer battlefield....

I just checked and the American economic growth has been steady since 2020......it seems to have been steadily moving along until 2019/2020 and since 2020, it has taken off rapidly.......most likely due to the war in Ukraine

United States GDP 1990-2023 | Statista

In 2023, the U.S.

www.statista.com

 

[jellyrug]

NATO and the west are benefiting from observing Russian forces (and now North Korean) in battle and then seeing how the Ukrainian drone units' effectiveness...

We are also learning the effectiveness of western armor, artillery and ground forces in several asymmetric scenarios.....

I kind of think the US was reserved in what they sent and very cautious at the level of tech that was presented so that the Russians were not able to study cutting edge systems.....I think A-10s weren't sent because it takes a long time to get pilots trained to conduct operations and Ukraine is short of pilots....the US doesn't export A10s and even as old as they are, they haven't been proven in a near-peer battlefield....

I just checked and the American economic growth has been steady since 2020......it seems to have been steadily moving along until 2019/2020 and since 2020, it has taken off rapidly.......most likely due to the war in Ukraine

United States GDP 1990-2023 | Statista

In 2023, the U.S.

www.statista.com

You guys need to leave the US economy to economists who understand how to read these graphs.

The GDP in your graph, 2020 - 2023 shows a GDP growth of around 6.5%, per year.
The inflation beginning 2020 was 1.4%. 2021 it was 7%. 2022 it was 6.5%.

Real GDP was almost flat.

 

[Red05]

You guys need to leave the US economy to economists who understand how to read these graphs.

The GDP in your graph, 2020 - 2023 shows a GDP growth of around 6.5%, per year.
The inflation beginning 2020 was 1.4%. 2021 it was 7%. 2022 it was 6.5%.

Real GDP was almost flat.

The nominal GPD was greatly affected by supply chain issues in 2021-2 because of Covid. Take a look at 2024 as the supply issue as the supply chain improves. You know as well as any of us that numbers don’t lie. What the numbers will reflect at the end of Trump’s first year will be telling as well.

 

[jellyrug]

The nominal GPD was greatly affected by supply chain issues in 2021-2 because of Covid. Take a look at 2024 as the supply issue as the supply chain improves. You know as well as any of us that numbers don’t lie. What the numbers will reflect at the end of Trump’s first year will be telling as well.

Don't dispute any of that. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Or more direct, that makes no difference to the poster who incorrectly interpreted the results of the graph he posted.

 

[Bumblebee]

Don't dispute any of that. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Or more direct, that makes no difference to the poster who incorrectly interpreted the results of the graph he posted.

You guys need to leave the US economy to economists who understand how to read these graphs.

The GDP in your graph, 2020 - 2023 shows a GDP growth of around 6.5%, per year.
The inflation beginning 2020 was 1.4%. 2021 it was 7%. 2022 it was 6.5%.

Real GDP was almost flat.

Incorrectly Interpreted what exactly?

Did you not also see the dip in 2019 and the rise in 2020?

That's all I was mentioning....I didn't go into a full critical analysis of it, nor did I say it was a crippling dip.....just that it was there.
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Agreed...perhaps we should also leave everything else we discuss to the professionals too.......that would certainly spell out the end of any forums or discussions......

 

[jellyrug]

Incorrectly Interpreted what exactly?

Did you not also see the dip in 2019 and the rise in 2020?

That's all I was mentioning....I didn't go into a full critical analysis of it, nor did I say it was a crippling dip.....just that it was there.
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Agreed...perhaps we should also leave everything else we discuss to the professionals too.......that would certainly spell out the end of any forums or discussions......

This is really simple Bee.

You said since 2020 the American economy has taken off rapidly. Most likely due to the war in Ukraine.

You are wrong, inflation took off rapidly and the 6.5% annual GDP growth you see in your graph is purely due to inflation. Inflation was at 6.5% per annum. There was no growth in the VALUE of GDP from 2020 to 2023.

The ECONOMY did not take off. It was static. The only thing your graph is showing is inflation.

Sigh, I wish I had zero common sense when dealing with you, it would have been so much easier.

Sounds like a broken record right? Apologies.

 

[Bumblebee]

This is really simple Bee.

You said since 2020 the American economy has taken off rapidly. Most likely due to the war in Ukraine.

You are wrong, inflation took off rapidly and the 6.5% annual GDP growth you see in your graph is purely due to inflation. Inflation was at 6.5% per annum. There was no growth in the VALUE of GDP from 2020 to 2023.

The ECONOMY did not take off. It was static. The only thing your graph is showing is inflation.

Sigh, I wish I had zero common sense when dealing with you, it would have been so much easier.

Sounds like a broken record right? Apologies.

I must be reading reh wrong graph.....it says it's of the GDP and it sure looks like it's taking off from 2020-2023.....the graph seems to be at a sharper rise than previous years.....???

The graph doesn't say anything about the inflation level...

Am I seeing things?

@Red05 or @TallTom do you see something I might be overlooking?

United States GDP 1990-2023 | Statista

In 2023, the U.S.

www.statista.com

I'm no economic expert by any means though......

I was just thinking that the GDP would have rose due to the war machine kicking in and fabricating all the arms, ammo and supplies for Ukraine.

 

[Red05]

Don't dispute any of that. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Or more direct, that makes no difference to the poster who incorrectly interpreted the results of the graph he posted.

What you refer to as real GPD is called nominal GPD. It takes inflation, which you used as a tool in your reply, into consideration. The economy did indeed thrive, during a democratic administration no less, but that in itself has nothing to do with inflation or GPD. It’s the people.
So, in answer to your question, it has a direct bearing on the price of tea in China.
(By the way, the common saying is the price of rice in China)

@Red05 or @TallTom do you see something I might be overlooking?

No. The chart you posted is a correct graph of GPD. Jelly said that inflation negates gains in a couple of the years, and I tried to explain it to him. It’s similar to net and gross sales. Nominal GPD takes inflation into consideration and inflation was bad in ‘22 and ‘23 but by 2024 the upward swing continues as we got past the negativity of Covid.

All that said, take this with a grain of salt, as remember, I’m just an insane whiner.