Russia and Ukraine

[Bumblebee]

Zelenskyy inherited this mess. Within a year of him being in office, Ukraine became a NATO Advanced Opportunity Partner and has lobbied to join outright. He has been intricately involved.

How much do you know about Zelensky and Ukraine?

It is one of these places flying under the radar for a long time.....the separatist states and Crimea have been targets of Russia ever since the fall of the Soviet Union.....all are predominately Russian speaking and are torn as to their loyalty.....

It has been a real mess for decades....

It is said that Putin honestly thought the separatist states would see Russia as liberators...

 

[Red05]

It has been a real mess for decades....

Yes but Zelenskyy’s for about 5 years, the last couple under actual, not threatening attack by his huge, aggressive neighbor.
I believe Putin should be tried for war crimes against Ukraine and his own people.

 

[Bumblebee]

Yes but Zelenskyy’s for about 5 years, the last couple under actual, not threatening attack by his huge, aggressive neighbor.
I believe Putin should be tried for war crimes against Ukraine and his own people.

If nothing else, Putin should be ousted from power......the Russian people don't want to be involved in this war either.

Sadly, the US is also just as guilty of this sort of thing over the years...Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria could all have been avoided.....those countries are forever changed and not for the better.

If we look back on historical empires, a lot of irreversible damage has been done over the millennia......

 

[Red05]

If we look back on historical empires, a lot of irreversible damage has been done over the millennia......

It’s never too late to start doing the right thing. The U.S. has taken on too much of the aid to Ukraine, as they are prone to do.
Regardless, Putin knows he made a mistake but is not man enough to acknowledge it.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Doesn't change the fact that Putin is the cause behind the invasion and subsequent killing, from the beginning. Zelenskyy was aware but what would you have done? It's not like he was dealing with a reasonable entity.

Are you absolutely sure of that or just sure from western fed media sources? How much true history do you or anyone here really know about that area? More than two centuries they have been swirling around in that area killing each other.
I'm not 100% convinced Putin is wrong when he warned the west about corruption in Ukraine. He was harping on it for years telling everyone they hedged stop it. Not on his border any longer. Fix it or he would. Two things we thought he was bluffing and the Bidens and Romneys of the world didn't want to interefere with their cash cow. We ignored him. He built up. Warned us. We ignored him. Moved masses onto the border and said again fix it or I will. We ignored him.
Or did we? Did the USA bait him into invading so we could perfect the next gen of weapons on a European battlefield instead of the desert for once? Hmmmm

 

[Red05]

Are you absolutely sure of that or just sure from western fed media sources? How much true history do you or anyone here really know about that area? More than two centuries they have been swirling around in that area killing each other.
I'm not 100% convinced Putin is wrong when he warned the west about corruption in Ukraine. He was harping on it for years telling everyone they hedged stop it. Not on his border any longer. Fix it or he would. Two things we thought he was bluffing and the Bidens and Romneys of the world didn't want to interefere with their cash cow. We ignored him. He built up. Warned us. We ignored him. Moved masses onto the border and said again fix it or I will. We ignored him.
Or did we? Did the USA bait him into invading so we could perfect the next gen of weapons on a European battlefield instead of the desert for once? Hmmmm

The border was as it stands. Putin crossed it.
Spin all the drama you want.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

However justified it may be we’ll never get back the billions we’ve already given them.

 

[Bumblebee]

Are you absolutely sure of that or just sure from western fed media sources? How much true history do you or anyone here really know about that area? More than two centuries they have been swirling around in that area killing each other.
I'm not 100% convinced Putin is wrong when he warned the west about corruption in Ukraine. He was harping on it for years telling everyone they hedged stop it. Not on his border any longer. Fix it or he would. Two things we thought he was bluffing and the Bidens and Romneys of the world didn't want to interefere with their cash cow. We ignored him. He built up. Warned us. We ignored him. Moved masses onto the border and said again fix it or I will. We ignored him.
Or did we? Did the USA bait him into invading so we could perfect the next gen of weapons on a European battlefield instead of the desert for once? Hmmmm

Although I've never been in Ukraine (to conduct training), I had teams there training Ukrainian troops and they said there is a unit there that openly sports nazi symbols and are known as the Azov brigade....our guys were told not to conduct training with this unit.....they (my team leaders) told me that they figure the unit took off their insignia so they could get training.....

This unit is also known for atrocities on the battle field...

We also are being inundated with western media that is showing only Russian losses.....I believe they (media) are being told not to show Ukrainian losses as if they did, the tax payers would be aghast and drop their support.....

I personally don't see a whole lot of difference from the Soviet Union to modern day Russia....lots of Putin's opponents disappear or die from poison it seems...

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

The border was as it stands. Putin crossed it.
Spin all the drama you want.

Incorrect. In 2014 the people of Donestk voted to LEAVE Ukraine and become part of Russia. It was contested by with a closed eye acknowledged by both. People in Crimea were going to do same. Results were already know and Putin jumped the gun and took it. Black seaport always Russian anyway. The 'border' we talk about are fluid

 

[Red05]

However justified it may be we’ll never get back the billions we’ve already given them.

I think the U.S. carries way too big a portion of the support in this war. That said, Ukraine became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991 and Putin is trying to take the land back by force. I question Putin’s legitimacy and I don’t understand why we would question Ukraine defending themselves.

 

[Red05]

However justified it may be we’ll never get back the billions we’ve already given them.

I think the U.S. carries way too big a portion of the support in this war. That said, Ukraine became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991 and Putin is trying to take the land back by force.
I don’t understand why we would question Ukraine defending themselves.

Incorrect. In 2014 the people of Donestk voted to LEAVE Ukraine and become part of Russia. It was contested by with a closed eye acknowledged by both.

Contested by a closed eye? What does that mean? The vote you refer to was not as clear cut as you imply. If Donetsk wants to secede it needs to do so diplomatically.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

I think the U.S. carries way too big a portion of the support in this war. That said, Ukraine became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991 and Putin is trying to take the land back by force.
I don’t understand why we would question Ukraine defending themselves.

Contested by a closed eye? What does that mean? The vote you refer to was not as clear cut as you imply. If Donetsk wants to secede it needs to do so diplomatically.

Donestk did secede diplomaticlly. They had a vote and it passed.

 

[Bumblebee]

I think the U.S. carries way too big a portion of the support in this war. That said, Ukraine became independent from the Soviet Union in 1991 and Putin is trying to take the land back by force.
I don’t understand why we would question Ukraine defending themselves.

Contested by a closed eye? What does that mean? The vote you refer to was not as clear cut as you imply. If Donetsk wants to secede it needs to do so diplomatically.

Honestly that entire region is very complicated in how they interact and relate to each other....

When the former Yugoslavia collapsed, it placed the entire Balkans into turmoil,

These effects are still being felt today in Ukraine where they never really integrated as a country and the provinces of Donestk, Kherson and Luhansk never really wanted to be part of Ukraine as they are all primarily Russian speaking......Ukraine imparted martial law within these provinces more than once to contain them and used ham-fisted tactics.

This all reminds me a of what happened in Cyprus where the Turkish military invaded to protect their citizens from being subjected to unfair constitutional changes by the Greek based government....in 1963 the Turkish forces seized and held a specific region until the actual Turkish invasion in 1974 which saw the island eventually divided with a UN controlled buffer zone...with Turkish people in the north and Greeks in the south....both were displaced from the homes in these respective regions....

So very similar to what we are seeing in Ukraine-the biggest difference is the UN has never separated the two and created a buffer zone as this plan was voted out by Russian and Ukraine.

 

[Red05]

Donestk did secede diplomaticlly. They had a vote and it passed.

The separatist movement does not comprise secession. The vote count was underwhelming as many people did not vote.
None of this justifies Putin crossing what you describe as a “fluid border”.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

The separatist movement does not comprise secession. The vote count was underwhelming as many people did not vote.
None of this justifies Putin crossing what you describe as a “fluid border”.

I believe less than half of what our media tells us. Before the invasion as Bee said the Azov Battalion was well known for war crimes and brutality as well as being Nazis, many with swastikas tattooed on them. As soon as our money started to flow they seemingly went away? What happened? The spin kicked in.

I don't know enough about the region and have never lived there. I don't know the inner workings and generational experiences of people there. What I do know is those peoples ancestors have been killing each other for centuries.

 

[kml]

 

[Bumblebee]

I believe less than half of what our media tells us. Before the invasion as Bee said the Azov Battalion was well known for war crimes and brutality as well as being Nazis, many with swastikas tattooed on them. As soon as our money started to flow they seemingly went away? What happened? The spin kicked in.

I don't know enough about the region and have never lived there. I don't know the inner workings and generational experiences of people there. What I do know is those peoples ancestors have been killing each other for centuries.

Azov are still there....one was spotted wearing a nazi-like insignia not too long ago.....

When they rotate through Latvia for training they remove their insignia but trainers there have seen swastika tattoos on some of them....

The entire region is a mess and there's a lot of distrust which is understandable considering what they've been through over the past few hundred years.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Azov are still there....one was spotted wearing a nazi-like insignia not too long ago.....

When they rotate through Latvia for training they remove their insignia but trainers there have seen swastika tattoos on some of them....

The entire region is a mess and there's a lot of distrust which is understandable considering what they've been through over the past few hundred years.

More massacres and roundups have happened right THERE than we know about.

 

[Bumblebee]

More massacres and roundups have happened right THERE than we know about.

If it's anything like the war in the Balkans was, I don't doubt it....

 

[mark3evo]

However justified it may be we’ll never get back the billions we’ve already given them.

pretty sure Blackrock , Statestreet the big investors will get their money back ,land has already been given to them, a bit like what the UK had to pay back to the USA after WWII