Since 1999 A Busa codes to c31 6Fixed
- Thread starter 2busa
- Start date
Articulate? Cougar, did you see how you picked up on my lingo. You had to formulate the concept, then tell me You want articulate? Read the fuel injection articles for articulation. Cougar, cars have the same fuel backup systems. Sensors have backups. You are showing me sensor readings in the analog. What you're missing is the ping to the resistor in the one wire, then those tre-marketeers by-pass the other 2 wires straight to the GPS. Aftermarket comes out with another ping to a different wire, opens the other 2, calls it something else in the catalog.
The 3 wires are family if you WOT for racing. Might as well bring the 186+ with you. You don't HAVE to travel 190. Simply disconnect it all. Either way, the abstract (6fixed) shows on a disconnected connector you receive a 6fixed. That is absolute and cannot be disputed...
Please show me how a precision-ed 7 point connection (6-N) inside the GPS, is going to recognized a modded sensor that now reads 6 (or less) diodes in the plastic bake. I would think one out of the 3 wire connections is bleeding onto (new resistance the ECM does not recognize) and triggers the code on that wire... in the absolute, (6fixed). SHow me how 5th is in the abstract to begin with.
The 3 wires are family if you WOT for racing. Might as well bring the 186+ with you. You don't HAVE to travel 190. Simply disconnect it all. Either way, the abstract (6fixed) shows on a disconnected connector you receive a 6fixed. That is absolute and cannot be disputed...
Please show me how a precision-ed 7 point connection (6-N) inside the GPS, is going to recognized a modded sensor that now reads 6 (or less) diodes in the plastic bake. I would think one out of the 3 wire connections is bleeding onto (new resistance the ECM does not recognize) and triggers the code on that wire... in the absolute, (6fixed). SHow me how 5th is in the abstract to begin with.
extreemachine
Never Forgotten
cougar694u
Registered
What Ping? The Black wire is a DIRECT short 100% of the time. A ping on that wire will show nothing, ~0 resistance. If it sends constant 5v and pings to 10v, it will pick up the full 10v differential. The Blue wire is a DIRECT short 100% of the time when it's in Neutral, a ping will show nothing again, ~0 resistance.
No matter how much voltage is applied to the Red wire, it's still faced with the same amount of resistance (depending on the gear position). Voltage is voltage and will appear EXACTLY the same, as resistance does nothing to voltage. Resistance affects current (amperage). A spike in voltage, or ping, will still register exactly the same as it should, as the voltage differential will be whatever it's sending referenced to ground. A spike, or ping, in amperage will be faced with the same resistances listed above, as though the sensor is functioning properly.
**EDIT**
For instance, in stock trim at 5v, the amps through the Red wire are as follows:
1st = 560 Ohms - 8.93 mA
2nd = 820 Ohms - 6.1 mA
3rd = 1.5K Ohms - 3.33 mA
4th = 2.73K Ohms - 1.83 mA
5th = 6.79K Ohms - 0.736 mA
6th = 14.97K Ohms - 0.334 mA
Now with the 12K Ohm resistor:
1st = 535 Ohms - 9.35 mA
2nd = 768 Ohms - 6.51 mA
3rd = 1.33K Ohms - 3.76 mA
4th = 2.22K Ohms - 2.25 mA
5th = 4.34K Ohms - 1.15 mA
6th = 6.66K Ohms - 0.751 mA
First, Second, & Third are pretty close, and probably within tolerances. Fourth gear is about 22% off, and 5th would actually be closer to 4th. However, 6th gear will register almost exactly near 5th gear in stock trim. Any analog ping will register exactly in the pattern above, as there is no voltage clamp. Any digital ping will appear exactly as it would in stock trim.
No matter how much voltage is applied to the Red wire, it's still faced with the same amount of resistance (depending on the gear position). Voltage is voltage and will appear EXACTLY the same, as resistance does nothing to voltage. Resistance affects current (amperage). A spike in voltage, or ping, will still register exactly the same as it should, as the voltage differential will be whatever it's sending referenced to ground. A spike, or ping, in amperage will be faced with the same resistances listed above, as though the sensor is functioning properly.
**EDIT**
For instance, in stock trim at 5v, the amps through the Red wire are as follows:
1st = 560 Ohms - 8.93 mA
2nd = 820 Ohms - 6.1 mA
3rd = 1.5K Ohms - 3.33 mA
4th = 2.73K Ohms - 1.83 mA
5th = 6.79K Ohms - 0.736 mA
6th = 14.97K Ohms - 0.334 mA
Now with the 12K Ohm resistor:
1st = 535 Ohms - 9.35 mA
2nd = 768 Ohms - 6.51 mA
3rd = 1.33K Ohms - 3.76 mA
4th = 2.22K Ohms - 2.25 mA
5th = 4.34K Ohms - 1.15 mA
6th = 6.66K Ohms - 0.751 mA
First, Second, & Third are pretty close, and probably within tolerances. Fourth gear is about 22% off, and 5th would actually be closer to 4th. However, 6th gear will register almost exactly near 5th gear in stock trim. Any analog ping will register exactly in the pattern above, as there is no voltage clamp. Any digital ping will appear exactly as it would in stock trim.
OK, I'm going to lay it out another way. We are one family, the bike world. The computer bike is a wild complex animal. That's what you're trying to figure out. The controversy since 1999 about how the bike works and how to tune it has been 10 months of shock for me. I've learned the limit of the ECM owning the 13.5. The tune is in the digital backups. The GPS is better off unplugged if you go racing. I hope this explains the simplicity of the bike. There is no magic resistor, no clutch mod, just the exact fact of what the bike will do to any coded sensor. The locked shift 6 is a code for the speed sensor. The bike is self diagnosing. The theory of the shifter voltage values only explains the complex roads of the ECU/Sensor functions you're discussing.
The video is my lame attempt (at funny) to describe the simplicity of the computer. I chopped 9 minutes down to whatever you see. I'll fluff the words trying to repeat the resistor is what is used, not the meter, (ohm). I built a few props, flipped the camera on and this is a tribute to the icon of this board and the other guy. You haven't seen the good stuff. They might take it wrong. Hey, it's just a motorcycle we;re talking about...
I was in sheer frustration/shock knowing the cry for the Pcom maps, the clutch mods, the controversy of a 5th map, the seat of the pants difference from the analog signal to the digital signal in the f/safe had a simple explanation...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3465590836361557890
The video is my lame attempt (at funny) to describe the simplicity of the computer. I chopped 9 minutes down to whatever you see. I'll fluff the words trying to repeat the resistor is what is used, not the meter, (ohm). I built a few props, flipped the camera on and this is a tribute to the icon of this board and the other guy. You haven't seen the good stuff. They might take it wrong. Hey, it's just a motorcycle we;re talking about...
I was in sheer frustration/shock knowing the cry for the Pcom maps, the clutch mods, the controversy of a 5th map, the seat of the pants difference from the analog signal to the digital signal in the f/safe had a simple explanation...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3465590836361557890
Luckily this is one of those nice, family oriented boards! GL with your "pulled sensor" racing bud. I'll be looking for logo on the next set of winning bikes during track events.... "powered by pulling sensors" "Abstract Racing....where racing is not the goal in the practical" and the finale "Misinterpreted Shop Manual Performance!"
cougar694u
Registered
What I don't understand is how can you say each wire does something different when the black wire is grounded 100% of the time? There's no switch, it would be 'on' (or off) all the time; the blue wire's only grounded when in neutral, so it's only 'on' (or off) when in neutral; and the red wire changes resistance depending on gear selection and is an open circuit while not in any gear.
If the black wire was any of the three (186+, 400 RPM, '6 Map'), it would trigger that one 100% of the time (or disabled 100% of the time). The black wire NEVER changes state, and that is in the absolute. If the blue wire was any of the three, it would only trigger while in neutral, OR in ANY gear, and only switches when landing in neutral (electrical landing, not stopping in neutral). Again, this is in the absolute, and is simple logic. The black wire is ALWAYS grounded, or a closed circuit. The blue wire is ALWAYS closed when in neutral, ALWAYS open when in gear. And a third time, these are ABSOLUTES, there's no gray area, this is how it will ALWAYS function. With that functionality, there's no way that the black wire or the blue wire can trigger a '6 map', 186+, or the extra 400 RPM, unless it's in any gear or no gear. However, with the red wire generating different resistances, it can.
The clutch mod will work because the black wire is still grounded 100% of the time; the blue wire's open in gear, closed in neutral, and the red wire's passing the same resistance in 6th gear as it would in 5th gear.
/discussion
If the black wire was any of the three (186+, 400 RPM, '6 Map'), it would trigger that one 100% of the time (or disabled 100% of the time). The black wire NEVER changes state, and that is in the absolute. If the blue wire was any of the three, it would only trigger while in neutral, OR in ANY gear, and only switches when landing in neutral (electrical landing, not stopping in neutral). Again, this is in the absolute, and is simple logic. The black wire is ALWAYS grounded, or a closed circuit. The blue wire is ALWAYS closed when in neutral, ALWAYS open when in gear. And a third time, these are ABSOLUTES, there's no gray area, this is how it will ALWAYS function. With that functionality, there's no way that the black wire or the blue wire can trigger a '6 map', 186+, or the extra 400 RPM, unless it's in any gear or no gear. However, with the red wire generating different resistances, it can.
At least you see the 'NO' in the middle of that. That's all you need in response.(heavybusa @ Jan. 22 2007,07:42) This is what I see when I open this thread
The clutch mod will work because the black wire is still grounded 100% of the time; the blue wire's open in gear, closed in neutral, and the red wire's passing the same resistance in 6th gear as it would in 5th gear.
/discussion
Here is what you should see in the abstract. No matter how bizarre the theory, no matter how I say the wires work. "IN THE ABSTRACT" the absolute "FAILURE" sequence is: (the)Sensor(fails =due to- shorts/open wire/volt value)~(then it defaults to)Fail-Safe(which takes over until)~(the)ECU(burns out=no start). That is the sequence. I did mention to pull the connector completely apart because the unit will default to everything anyway. Why mess with a clutch, a resistor, or a tre; when the absolute end is triggering the 6fixed. Think about it. The GPS is faulty, you see something has changed to the driveability of the bike = Default 6 and all the goodies that go with it (meaning, the other two are triggered as well).
THE BIKE"S SENSOR IS SHORTED = All backup (6fixed =186-6-400) is in play, because the GPS is sending a wrong signal. It's that simple to follow the abstract in the book. What are you guys missing? Do you not see the "DRIVEABILITY" change to the 6fixed when you **** up the GPS with the clutch fix or installing the tre? Sorry, no other gear is present. 6fixed (along with his 2 buddies) is the only gear map.
That sensor will boot to it's fail-safe. Read the manual. The manual does not tell you if you install a tre or resistor in one of the 3 wires, the computer is going to react this way to a 5th map or you have the same ability to select 400rpm from a wire. The 6fixed loads everything! It's the same "crash in the wall thinking" that you have the ability to select the 186, the 5th map, or 400rpm. The absolute says you triggered the 6fixed (w/all the rest)...
Which means, pull out a wire or pick any wire to install the resistor; Bingo = c31 Defaults all 3 anyway, The book should be telling you the code is set by locking the shift window. Keep walking the abstract. What you're missing is the short (any short) to the GPS. Pull one wire out of the GPS, the bike codes the GPS sensor. Logic, common sense says; the GPS is faulty (failed by the resistor in line or a pulled wire = Full Codes!). If you see one code spit with the wire, you can reverse one of the wires and the code (you don't see) simply is triggered by the other wire; confusing you (by not) popping the code another way.
If you follow the abstract, no wire can be open (disconnected), shorted to ground, or have a specific value (of that wire straight to the sensor) reading another value = tre/resistor, (restricting the correct reading at the sensor body) .
Pull the sensor connector. Read that value from each wire down to the sensor. Now install the tre/resistor in line. Take your ohm meter, and read the new values at the 3 wires. If the 3 values do not add up because the aftermarket was installed, does not that one step (install the tre/270ohm) set the code? Book says; Open-short-wrong (book) values (at that wire) will throw the code 6fixed.
If the book says you will receive the industry standard for the GPS; a locked 6... How do you come up thinking to tell the computer to run a 5th? If running a 5th is possible then the theory (what your abstract follows, not the book's abstract) says, you can pick and choose a 400rpm wire as much as you can hold 186 open with/out the extra fat 6 map to boost you past 186. It does not follow the logic of the book.
Ask yourself if you can choose 3 individual selections from the GPS. Can I select A 5th map? Can I hold 186, leave out the fatter 6th map, capture only the 400rpm; on an individual basis? Is that how flexible and workable a computer is? Please explain.
THE BIKE"S SENSOR IS SHORTED = All backup (6fixed =186-6-400) is in play, because the GPS is sending a wrong signal. It's that simple to follow the abstract in the book. What are you guys missing? Do you not see the "DRIVEABILITY" change to the 6fixed when you **** up the GPS with the clutch fix or installing the tre? Sorry, no other gear is present. 6fixed (along with his 2 buddies) is the only gear map.
That sensor will boot to it's fail-safe. Read the manual. The manual does not tell you if you install a tre or resistor in one of the 3 wires, the computer is going to react this way to a 5th map or you have the same ability to select 400rpm from a wire. The 6fixed loads everything! It's the same "crash in the wall thinking" that you have the ability to select the 186, the 5th map, or 400rpm. The absolute says you triggered the 6fixed (w/all the rest)...
Which means, pull out a wire or pick any wire to install the resistor; Bingo = c31 Defaults all 3 anyway, The book should be telling you the code is set by locking the shift window. Keep walking the abstract. What you're missing is the short (any short) to the GPS. Pull one wire out of the GPS, the bike codes the GPS sensor. Logic, common sense says; the GPS is faulty (failed by the resistor in line or a pulled wire = Full Codes!). If you see one code spit with the wire, you can reverse one of the wires and the code (you don't see) simply is triggered by the other wire; confusing you (by not) popping the code another way.
If you follow the abstract, no wire can be open (disconnected), shorted to ground, or have a specific value (of that wire straight to the sensor) reading another value = tre/resistor, (restricting the correct reading at the sensor body) .
Pull the sensor connector. Read that value from each wire down to the sensor. Now install the tre/resistor in line. Take your ohm meter, and read the new values at the 3 wires. If the 3 values do not add up because the aftermarket was installed, does not that one step (install the tre/270ohm) set the code? Book says; Open-short-wrong (book) values (at that wire) will throw the code 6fixed.
If the book says you will receive the industry standard for the GPS; a locked 6... How do you come up thinking to tell the computer to run a 5th? If running a 5th is possible then the theory (what your abstract follows, not the book's abstract) says, you can pick and choose a 400rpm wire as much as you can hold 186 open with/out the extra fat 6 map to boost you past 186. It does not follow the logic of the book.
Ask yourself if you can choose 3 individual selections from the GPS. Can I select A 5th map? Can I hold 186, leave out the fatter 6th map, capture only the 400rpm; on an individual basis? Is that how flexible and workable a computer is? Please explain.
cougar694u
Registered
Is this what you're saying, "If you unplug the GPS sensor harness the following will be enabled:
A) A fatter fuel trim
2) Factory rev limiter of 10,900 RPM
III) MPH >= 187
Thus, eliminating the need for a TRE"
Is that what you're saying?
A) A fatter fuel trim
2) Factory rev limiter of 10,900 RPM
III) MPH >= 187
Thus, eliminating the need for a TRE"
Is that what you're saying?
The manual does not tell you the bike will be lighter with billet, carbon fiber, gundrilled bolts; faster or quicker with sprocket change; or handle better with stiffer fork springs either, but WTF does that mean? Means the Manual is the same compromise of power vs. economy vs. emissions as all other automotive products.
The manual does have a troubleshooting section in it, but I cant agree with your interpretation of it. I dont recall seeing a section stating a GPS wire cannot be grounded, open, or read a different value (as preset by other gears). So, want to show me where it says this part? I'd like to see it in the manual, not typed from your interpretation of it.
A wrong value: e.g. if the gear was to show 100ohms +/-2ohms, and it showed 120ohms, that would be wrong reading. However, if the reading is w/i tolerance, then its not wrong. You might be wrong, but not the value. The ECM will not simply reject an amount of resistance based off your theory. There are preset amounts of resistance per gear. The ECM does not know when the clutch lever is pulled whether a gear was changed or not, unless the value reported back from the GPS changes. No change, the ECM thinks its still in the gear matching value reported, viola the 6th gear can be altered in the GPS to show the same value as another gear. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Is it because you tried making a modified GPS and screwed it a few times not knowing wtf you were doing?
Yes you are absolutely correct in that it is possible to program the GPS resistance to match ANY of the other gears when in 6th, get the extra 400rpms, remove the 186mph restriction, and not have to worry about the "extra fat map". Where is that you came up with 6th gear being "extra fat" anyway? Is this from you logging Lambda on a Hayabusa? Or from playing with your 13.5? In another post, you claim the stock configuration (ECM wise) is the best you can manage, since it always alter fuel etc better than any Power Commander could....how is it possible to be the best in FI Management yet have an extra fat 6th gear map?
Anytime you want to know just how flexible the stock ECM can be let me know. I can show you screen print after screen print of just some of the few hundred parameters available to flex the ECM in a fuel injector arrangement. Or look at what Suzuki itself is using for 07', selectable map bikes!
That IS exactly what he is saying. As well, from another thread, the use of a Power Commander or other tuning tool is garbage cause the ECM is so smart it automatically compensates for changes to the air intake/exhaust or power production of the engine. He has very little techincal understanding of electronics, computer applications in fuel injected engine management etc.. But in his abstract, he is the one-upper!
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